I have been unable to find anywhere in any manual that states it is optional. But i have also not found anywhere that states they can force you to recieve it.

So what is the real answer and where is it located?

This is assuming you DO NOT wish to recieve security or LE training.

You will not find anywhere that OC is optional. If you are at an operational unit and your command gives you a direct order (UCMJ) you get OC, unless you are not medically fit to receive it. I am not trying to be rude to you at all. I think you ask a very good question but the bottom line is if a superior gives you a direct order you have to follow it. It is not really fair to the rest of your shipmates either. There are more than a few of us who are not really gung ho for LE, but we do it because we pull our load. Remember no one gets paid extra money for being BO,BTM certified. Carry on.

To play devil's advocate, it is stated you must follow a "direct, lawful order". Is it a lawful to order a member to receive FFE of OC when the CG's LE program is voluntary?

Voluntary? Haven't heard that one before. Maybe you should call your union rep.

Take the pain, it's not that bad

Voluntary? tell that to the MK3 at my unit that is on Port and Report for BO.

Has 14 USC 89 a & B been modified to read that any Officer, Warrant Officer or Petty Officer, may elect NOT to perform tha duties as assigned?

Seanboy, while there are many in the Guard push for more and more LE training, and much more is neaded, ANY PO and above may be called upon as necessary to assist in LE.. If you may have to carry it, you should know what is does and how it effect, will or will not assist you.


14 UNITED STATES CODE, is not voluntary. It's law. Our law.

Jack
MLE School Grad.

I've had CS/CN exposure while in the Army.

I've had OC exposure at my civilian PD in 1994.

I took another hit of OC going through BTM school in 2002. I did have the documentation from the PD, but my PD had fog and CG had stream. I wanted to experience the stream's affect. Sure it hurt, and it lasted a LOT longer than advertised.

Everyone carrying OC should experience it. You can get exposed by a shipmate using it on an individual you're in the process of arresting. I've caught over-exposure numerous times.

Someone using OC against you is a deadly force situation. Knowning how OC affects you is critical to your defense if someone threatens you with OC. OC is readily available to the civilian population, and it has been used against LEO's, and you HAVE to be able to articulate how you were in fear of being incapacited by OC if you use lethal force against someone threatening you with OC.

'nuff said.

Now everyone needs to exhale and un-puff your manly chests. Relax with the whole "suck it up and do it" attitude.
I don't know about you, but I don't want someone who wants nothing to do with LE watching my back in a stressful / life-threatening situation. I understand the need for everyone at a command to pull their share of the workload, but LE really should not be a “mandatory” collateral duty.
The answer to the original question is that there is nothing that states a command can force you to receive a full-face exposure to OC. However, if you choose to be part of the boarding team you must qualify in the carriage of all use of force tools including OC which requires full-face exposure.

Just do it! if you joined any other service you would be gassed in basic. Is there a specific reason that you don't want to do it? If you are refusing just because, it does not shine a good light on your career choice.

You could also just do a boarding with Sean C. and he will spray you on a migrant case in Miami...

So does the same thing hold true for the weapon we carry or the asp that we also carry. Lets all get shot to see how it feels or maybe we can get wacked in the leg to see how the asp feels. Getting OC is just dumb. The kid has a legit question.

I think this has gone far enough. You are in the military. You signed the dotted line. You are told to do something. DO IT. I know that this web site is supposed to be a free to express your own opinion on many things. This one is ridiculous. At some point you have to say "You are in the military you were given an order, DO IT", no wait I don't really want to be inport OOD qualified and there is no where that says that I have to get qualified and if I do want to get qualified I have to do drawings so do I have to do it?

I was in the Coast Guard for five years, and got hit with OC. I am now a police officer in CA and got hit again in the academy, along with pepperball and the Taser. I can't count how many incidental exposures of all three I've had. LE policy in the CG, as far as I know, is pretty ambiguous about the optionality of doing it. However, your billet is based slightly on personal preference, but much more on the needs of the service. And the bottom line is that, once you've been assigned, that is that. Many BILLETS in the Coast Guard REQUIRE LE certification, and there are BTM, BO, OOD, Coxswain, etc. staffing requirements which HAVE to be met. And a superior requiring you to become certified when your billet requires it is totally and completely a LAWFUL order, as defined by the UCMJ. You don't like it, get transferred to a base and hand out basketballs.

quote:

Originally posted by JerryG:


Someone using OC against you is a deadly force situation. Knowning how OC affects you is critical to your defense if someone threatens you with OC. OC is readily available to the civilian population, and it has been used against LEO's, and you HAVE to be able to articulate how you were in fear of being incapacited by OC if you use lethal force against someone threatening you with OC.

'nuff said.

Jerry, Pretty wide brush you’re using there. Might want to just reword that first sentence a bit, someone might take it for gospel.

Your second part is missing something....

“”You HAVE to be able to articulate how you were in fear of being incapacitated by OC””....and.....

What the subjects actions were next, that lead you to use deadly force. Meaning what was it that closed the triangle completely, OC alone is not deadly force, even if you get a full face shot of it. Your training and qual process will come into play as well if you go to court. You were sprayed and still kept your eyes open to protect yourself and you know what to do and this time YES it will still burn but you know that you can survive it.

I know your background, however we have lots of JR's that read these boards that don't have your training, knowledge and experience, for you to say it's deadly force right off the bat might lead them down the wrong path in their UOF decisions. Might just confuse them.

“”threatening you with OC”” is not anywhere in the list of DF situations in the MLEM.

Should I shoot myself in the leg with a .40 so that I can see how that differs from being shot with a 9mm? Exposing yourself to this just so you can see how it feels is not very bright in my opinion. It reminds me of the "Hey ya'll, watch this..." mentality. It has close enough to the same affect on all people to assume that it won't be comfortable on you. If it is uncomfortable enough to be asked about in this venue, it isn't a smart thing to do to yourself so that you can see what it's like. Now if it was a Punch Rare Corojo Cigar......I think that every one should be required to puff on one every payday.

Shooting yourself in the leg and beating yourself with an expandable baton? Come on guys, let's be a little more realistic. Being sprayed for cerification is NOT "just to see what it feels like". It's so you know how to decontaminate yourself in case of accidental exposure and so you know what kind of pain the suspect is in during exposure. Local PD that want to carry tasers have to get zapped in order to carry. As far as the initial question: If the commands requires you to do it, then you have no choice. Training always goes Service, Unit, Person. The command (unit) may need you to fill a vacancy on a boarding team. You only have to do it one time and it's over.

jafo brough up the magic word so I'm going off topic a bit to vent.

Being hit w/ the taser "for qualification" is just someones cruel joke and does nothing for the officer, in my opinion. I agree that the officers should be exposed to OC for the reason that if they get blowback, or get some overspray from a partner, it shows you that it's not the end of the world and that you can still function. And as jerry mentioned, perps have pretty easy access to OC and there is a good chance that they can use it against you.
Now, the taser is a different story. How many bad guys are carrying a taser out there that can use it against you?? Not many, I'm guessing. And if someone pulled a taser on me, I'm going for my gun and pulling the trigger as the taser looks similar to a gun and I'm not going to ask if it's a gun or taser. Getting hit by a taser for qualification sake does nothing for you. You cannot fight off a taser like you can OC. It acts on a whole different body function than does OC. So what does it prove to you as an officer? Nothing, other than, "If you get hit with a taser, you're SOL for those 5 seconds." It's just a waste of a cartrige, and not practicle. It's not a sarcastic question to then ask why don't we take a full swing on each other with the ASP to show you that you'll go down when hit. ASP is on the same level as a taser.

Think about it.

Sorry for the rant. Carry on.

a47mlb: I see your point. But, as I work for a department which carries the Taser X26, have been Tasered during qualification, and have been involved in numerous Tasing incidents, I can tell you this. Although it is more directed than pepper spray, it is very easy to be Tased incidentally while fighting with someone. If the prongs are in the subject and a part of your body happens to touch between those prongs (as happen very often), you will definitely know it. And if you have felt the effects of the Taser before, it won't distract you as much as if you thought God was reaching down and touching you.

d1, I see what your saying. I too worked for a dept that carried the taser. During our qual period, the instructor took a shot, and then told us it hurt like hell, so don't get in between the nodes. And that was it, we didn't need a full jolt from the thing to know what it would do. I've been hit with an ASP before (by my own partner) while wrestling with a perp, but that doesn't mean then we go out and give each other full shots to the leg, "just to know what to expect".
I guess my point is, the main reason for OC exposure is that is shows you that you can fight through it. You can't fight through the taser, so what's the point there?? Just so you can have a cool video to show your kids someday??

Gotcha And I do have a cool video