I read in da pam 623-3 that if a soldier doesnt have an APFT done in the rated time, the APFT and HEIGHT/WEIGHT boxes were left empty and the reason was described in the comment box.
This may sound like a stupid question, but a rater couldn't mark needs improvement unless he had paperwork from an APFT test could he?
How else would he know the soldier needs improvement? The reason I ask is I am looking at an NCOER now that has Needs Improvement yet the soldier never took an APFT during his rated time according to the comments block.
|Highly Experienced Member|
The PT test is only one factor. Your rater sees you on a daily basis (hopefully), and can see your performance during daily PT. If you fall out of a runs, or slack off during the other exercises, then yes, they sure can suggest need improvement.
thanks for the response. I posted a question in the army reserves forum, then a related one here (close to the first, but different enough to warrant a reg army post), then I should have gone back to post this in the reserves forum.
As a reservist, the rater doesnt see the rated soldier of course, but its even a special situation beyond that - the soldier only attended one drill at the rater's unit ( and could out pt anyone in the unit during the one pt session they did).
The only reason the rater gave for needs improvement was no apft on record. Even if the rated SM did fall out of runs, etc., the rater would need counseling statemtents, etc wouldnt he to back up a needs improvement rating?
|Highly Experienced Member|
I wouldn't think a counceling statement would be needed. Your making the needs improvement as negative. It isn't. There's always something a soldier/NCO can do to improve himself. If you put only good in a NCOER, then you are setting the NCO up for failure in the future.
interesting point I've never heard that put that way in regards to army evals.
So its just army rumor that any needs improvement ratings need paperwork to justify them? I'd always understood that but was unable to find it in the regs
Table 3-4 spells out what to do without a valid APFT;
If the APFT has not been taken within twelve months of the THRU date of the report, and the Soldier is not on any profile, the APFT date entry will be left blank. The rater will explain the absence of an APFT entry in Part IVc
It's hard to comment without being privy to the specifics, which would obviously be inappropriate here. That doesn't mean lack of an APFT is a freebie. The instructions clearly state that the lack of APFT needs to be explained. Is it? Does the explanation given not make sense? Or does it not seem to be a legitimate reason? Does it warrant a 'needs improvement'? For example, not taking or reporting for an APFT as directed without a valid profile or other legitimate reason is considered a failure even if the test itself was not administered.
The APFT is not the only thing evaluated in the Physical Fitness & Military Bearing portion. You can be a 300+ point stud and still fail at that station if you are simultaneously a s**tbag of a soldier. Is there a counseling either by DA4856 or NCOER support form? The NCOER should have been proofed and endorsed by a SGM/CSM up the chain (not required by Reg, but I haven't seen too many commands that don't do that per SOP). At a minimum the senior rater and/or reviewer should have kicked back an unjustified comment. Is there a local policy/SOP that calls for this rating for whatever he/she did?
I found that table when I was researching this, but it doesn't address whether or not the rating blocks are filled out (just says to fill leave the apft / ht wt info blank).
Even though this post is in the reg army forum, its a reserve matter. what happened is a soldier had to move to another state a month after being assigned to the rating unit and the unit took over half a year to transfer him to his new unit (through no fault of his own). During that time he was waiting to be transferred to the new unit, he drilled with them.
Then when it came NCOER time, he was given a bunch of bad ratings as though he just took off to another state without ever contacting his the unit he was assigned to. (In the reserves, it's impossible to drill at a unit other than your own without the permission of your command). As azmax noted in my other post, it was a real WtF moment. that was literally what went through my head the first couple days of this (I am the rated soldier in the scenario in case you didnt figure it out by now). I couldn't believe that the raters were that incompetent, someone must have it in for me but who, etc. I still am asking wtf, but after I talked to the 1SG yesterday I sent the BN CSM and email (through the 1SG). Hopefully it will be cleared up soon.
I only physically attended my assigned unit twice in almost a year due to my move, I wasn't expecting a great NCOER of course, but I wasn't expecting what I'm getting so far either.
I really wish I could find the regs on unrated time. Its one of those problems unique to the reserve components. In the reg army, the rater has to have 90 days (I believe ) as rater, in the reserves, it doesn't really address this situation. Yes, I was assigned to the unit longer than 90 days, but only got to see my superiors (or anyone else in the unit) for two weekends before I had to move to another state). see what I mean now?
Gotcha, troop. I figured you were asking about a personal matter.
You're doing exactly the right thing by taking it through your 1SG & CSM. Just remember to keep your cool. Tact & bearing will always get you farther - even when it appears things are all FUBARed.
As a last resort you can always get advice from JAG, and ultimately IG. Just remember, don't even think about flashing that card until all other avenues are exhausted and you truly believe you are being unfairly treated.
After talking to the 1SG (and to a lesser extent, the rater and sr rater) I began getting the feeling the chicken*t company commander was pushing the bad ratings. I don't know why he would, unless its that he just got his o3 and is trying to make himself a tough guy reputation or something.
The good news is the Bn CSM got involved, and told me the unit I have been RSTing with during those 6 or 7 months of transfer time could rate me during then. And of course the current bn is very pleased with me (made me detachment ncoic the month my orders transferring me finally went through, and some other additional duty appointments.
So the NCO support channel worked this time as its supposed to. Thanks for everyones input
I can't imagine why someone doesn't have a record APFT unless they have a profile. I have put a Needs Improvement (Some) on an NCOER due to the fact the NCO did not take an APFT. Most often, such NCOs are shirking the test, and are poor performers. In the block I wrote " o failed to take an APFT IAW AR 350-1. Unless someone has a profile, it's pretty sorry if you can't manage to at least take an APFT - you don't have to score a 300... at least get a 180 (that would have been better than the Needs Improvement). : )
|Highly Experienced Member|
Are you serious, a bare minimum of 180, hell yeah that rates a needs improvement.
Wrong. 180 meets the standard. Of course this may/should warrant a "3" or "4" on the Senior Rater Performance block.
DON'T FEED THE TROLLS.
This thread was almost 3 years dead when 6291029 decided they needed to comment on it.
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