Is there an Army Regulation that governs overworking in the Army? If not, is there a limit on how much you can be worked in a non-training, non-tactical unit? A soldier I know has gotten a new NCO and came to me for help.

He is in an S-1 shop, and his new NCO is an ex-drill / ex-recruiter who has never worked in an S-1 shop before (E7 never been deployed, 17 yrs of service, never even worked in an S1 or his, MOS 42A)

Anyways, I guess the guy is extremely micromanaging and counselling and recommedning UCMJ every other week on one of the soldiers. Their moral is shot, their family life is suffering, and they are all stressed to the point of coming to me.

He is currently working these guys 06:00 (PT) to 20:30 six days a week (Monday through Saturday, Sundays only day off). After 13:00, when they return from lunch they are kep until 20:30 without any dinner chow.

These guys families are suffering because with only Sundays off they are not getting to go grocery shopping for their families etc.

I to am an NCO and I am only asking here because I am not familiar with any Army regs on regular duty hours and if there is anything protecting or governing from these type of situations.

I at first thought it was typical privates whining but after 2 straight months of it these guys are physically and mentally exhausted and their families are suffering undue stress.

What can I recommend to these soldiers? Just suck it up or is this valid for any type of complaint?

No, I think he can do this. I believe if it is related to discipline and it reads from your post that might be the issue. What I noticed missing from your post is a reason why this is happening.....you point to his prior service and MOS but rarely is that a real reason.

I had a Marine PSG like that once (everyone gets at least one article 15 in the platoon....lol). Before it was my turn for UCMJ, I just talked to the guy one-on-one and that stopped it for the whole Platoon. No idea why it stopped but my guess is he wasn't checking on impact of his actions and had no idea on the morale implications until I told him.

The reason he started it is because other NCO's in the Company stated to him that our Platoon was out of control (which was perception only) BUT he felt he had to reign us in and this was his way to do it. So it was miscommunication by his peers (an example of the NCO Corps getting it wrong).

No matter how much of a percieved dick someone is, you can talk to them at some level and reason with them in most cases. This situtation that your explaining above might be from poor communication. Maybe the BN XO told him that his S1 section needed more discipline or something along those lines? Only way to find out is to ask. Once they find out why he is acting this way then they can address it.

I've been out for a while S1 is BN S1 still or did they move that around in the new Army to somewhere else?

If it's the same and he doesn't respond, he should have someone over him in HHC or in the BN Chain of Command that can be talked to.

If a Soldier is being put through a wringer like that or of a small unit is being subjected to UCMJ, punitive road marches or PT..... repeatedly they have a right to know the reason why.

Thats what I would do first. Have someone with sit down and talk to him.

BTW, way back when I was in a Infantry Regiment we were always slamming the BN S1 section for shamming. Mercilessly in some cases. It was just good natured ribbing BUT it had the potential to be mispercieved I guess.

Every post I have been at had a policy letter or regulation (usually in the post/division 350-1 "Training" regulation) regarding the "standard duty day".

The expected time of training or mission support should be posted on the unit training schedule and signed by the company commander, making it a lawful order.

An NCO doesn't have the authority to override the commander's orders- it mission requires it, it should be easy to get verbal permission from the commander to work late.

My personal opinion? Your Soldier is feeding you a line of BS. A SFC (E7 is a paygrade, SFC is a rank) that has never worked in his MOS? Comeon, he might be a little out of date after coming off the trail, but NEVER?? Maybe if he is a reclass, but I doubt it. Any NCO that's been in the Army long enough to make SFC should at least allow Soldiers to each dinner.

Have you ever talked to the NCO in question? As an NCO, he has the benefit of the doubt over a private, by virtue of his rank, if nothing else. I'll bet you get a completely different story from the NCO.

Damn, your an NCO and you never had to work 18 hour days, 6 days a week? Where have you been hiding?

I found it hilarious you tried to down the PLT SGT because he has never deployed, in your words. I knew plenty of guys that were outright idiots before deploying, were an idiot when they deployed, and were combat patch wearing idiots when they got back. So, what is your point?

Questions.
Was paperwork backed up at the S-1 shop?
Were there complaints of lost paperwork?
If all paperwork is caught up, are they sitting around watching the clock?
With a S=1 shop full of Soldiers with 'contacts' why hasn't somebody from Battalion, JAG or IG come down?
Of all jobs in the Army, shouldn't the S-1 shop know the regulations over this kind of stuff?

When I was in Korea and my fuel terminal was about to shut down, we had some serious personnel problems. Because we got cut out of replacements, the number of Americans dwindled down. Along with that, we had to have an American on duty 24 hours a day. In the last two months of operation we had two Americans who we could put on the duty roster (the third was pregnant).

My Platoon Sergeant came to me with a plan to put these two on a day on/day off schedule. I voiced concern this would violate Da Rulez. He cracked open an AR and showed me the relevant provisions. I don't remember the details but I recall his game plan was quite liberal compared to what was possible!

Not surprisingly our Soldiers didn't much care for the plan. They got the pregnant trooper and our KATUSAs whipped up into a frenzy and plotted mayhem. SSG Latham quelled that quickly. He got out the regs regarding feeding troops. With those in mind, he devised a plan to cut off the mess hall shuttle and just issue everyone 3 MREs a day. When our crew found out he had dropped a MRE requisition with the supply sergeant, everyone calmed down.

I think someone isn't giving the full story, of course I worked 96 hrs straight on EDRE's & deployments. When I was the BN Ammo chief & Spt Plt Ldr- there were several times we worked 18+ hrs a day tryign to get the vehicles /gear ready for Div/Corps or IG inspections- but that maight onlt be 2/3 times a yr for a week or two. Then I would allow some extra slack time, if we did weel. Only resaon I can see an S1 shop spasiming laike that is for their recoerds to be toast or reading for a deployment- S1 normally slacks more than the other shops.

The maximum number of hours a day that soldier can be required to be on duty is 24. If that is not enough time to accomplish the mission, then the work must be carried over to the next duty day beginning no earlier than 00:00:01 hours...

Long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away...(well, thirty years ago in West Germany):

Due to a local drug operation in progress, I was one of two duty MP investigators in our office for a month. Two other investigators split their duty to two weeks apiece. I had the whole month without relief.

It was supposed to be 24 on, 24 off, but ended up being more like 36 on, 12 off.

At the end of the operation, everyone involved got accolades and awards.

I got my butt chewed by my NCOIC for having too many cases open.

Needs of the service, afterwards came my need to ...

Damn they get sundays off!

Did they realize the joined the Army?

Side note It used to p-iss me off when people started complaining about long hours and not having time for wife and home , while the single soldiers would get f'd on a daily basis with sh-it details and extra duty.



End of Rant

Just a side note; I have replied to my boss several times, "This ain't the Army, bud"

During deployment, our shifts were 12 hours, which usually stretched to 14-16 hours after all the formations and informational gatherings.

Our 1SG also said that they could work us 28 days straight but then they had to give us 36 hours off after that.

Normally we worked 6 days per week, except when we were doing phase maintenance on an aircraft. Then we didn't get a day off till the phase was done.

Matt
SPC, AV
US Army
OCS Selectee
Class 303-10

Bowmasterxxx was there the same time as me, so he was on the same schedule.

In our unit in Germany, we did fifteen day site tours. The schedule on site was three hours in the towers, three hours on SAT (full gear/ammo/weapons in a room waiting to deploy out the doors), six hours off, rinse, and repeat. We had four tower reliefs. This doesn't include SAT and BAFs which were called a couple times a day randomly. They were timed deployments out the doors onto site. SAT had something like ninety seconds to be out the door and deployed into pre-fab concrete fighting positions. BAF was everybody else. I think BAF had three minutes to be out the doors...maybe six. That's from asleep in our rooms to deployed with gear and weapons. SAT also did couple patrols around the site each relief. In between all this, we were actually supposed to get a shower and some meals in us, too.

That's 24 hours a day, seven days a week for a minimum of fifteen days at a time. Our four platoons rotated up. Each platoon had a support platoon, so I usually did one tour a month. I was in second and I almost always went up supporting fourth. One time I got held on site to support third platoon and did three tours in a row. It was a live nuclear missile site, and my company was the complete security for it and the mobile launchers that were always in the field. Somebody was with them at all times, so we worked a lot.

This is all just to man our missile site. It doesn't even include our Infantry training off site or protecting the missiles when they were in the field. I think I probably worked more weekends than I had off over there. Actually, I know I did.

That was my first two years.

...so to answer your original question, I doubt it.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: PepeLep,

quote:

Originally posted by airdiablo6:
Side note It used to p-iss me off when people started complaining about long hours and not having time for wife and home , while the single soldiers would get f'd on a daily basis with sh-it details and extra duty.

Me, too.

I got so sick of it. I mean really sick of it. It still makes me mad.

One of the reasons I did every site tour with fourth is because the married guys needed "time with their families". Single guys did support. Luckily back then almost all of us were single. It probably sucks even worse today with all the married people there are.

I still can't stand to hear married people whining about long hours in the military. I'd rather see no married people allowed as lower enlisted. It's nothing but problems.

I'm sure that'll make somebody mad, but it's my opinion.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: PepeLep,

quote:

Originally posted by poveglia:
He is in an S-1 shop, and his new NCO is an ex-drill / ex-recruiter who has never worked in an S-1 shop before (E7 never been deployed, 17 yrs of service, never even worked in an S1 or his, MOS 42A)

How does the soldier you know have any idea whether or not the new SFC in his shop has ever worked in his MOS? That sounds like made up BS to me.

Unless the new SFC gave them a resume, I seriously doubt if anybody in the shop knows all of his duty stations. If that's made up, I wouldn't doubt all of it is.

Tell whoever you know to suck it up and quit whining.

quote:

Originally posted by PepeLep:

How does the soldier you know have any idea whether or not the new SFC in his shop has ever worked in his MOS? That sounds like made up BS to me.

Unless the new SFC gave them a resume, I seriously doubt if anybody in the shop knows all of his duty stations. If that's made up, I wouldn't doubt all of it is.

Tell whoever you know to suck it up and quit whining.

Pepe, where I was stationed in Germany the S1 did a quarterly records check where they would look and see awards / schools you had and what you were and were not authorized to wear.

They would never keep the sh*t confidential either so when someone was caught with a PX Ranger patch.....the whole BN found out about it and usually the guy would go AWOL (former PSG of mine did this) or they would remove him from the Infantry BN for "personal safety" so he didn't get his azz kicked by those that actually earned the tab.

We'd get about a poser every 3-6 months that I would hear about via the rumor mill. Sometimes confirmed, sometimes just rumor. Obviously my PSG I found out about because he disappeared suddenly. Only had two PSG's in Germany. First the poser for 4 months, then the Marine for the rest of the 18 month tour.

I can imagine with Velcro the problem is probably worse now with folks wearing the wrong patches. I still cannot believe we had a fake Ranger for 4 months in a Infantry unit.....unbelieveable. Our Platoon Leader was tabbed too, you would think he would have caught it at least. I guess this guy was good.

quote:

Originally posted by ErichG2:
I still cannot believe we had a fake Ranger for 4 months in a Infantry unit.....unbelieveable.

That really is amazing with as many Ranger tabs as you have running around Infantry units. My 1SG in Germany was a Ranger Instructor, so I doubt if that guy would've even made it to the company before he was caught.


I bet you're right. With velcro, I bet it's real easy to fake stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by ErichG2:
Pepe, where I was stationed in Germany the S1 did a quarterly records check where they would look and see awards / schools you had and what you were and were not authorized to wear.

Is that what S1 is? I don't think I ever met one of them.

I never really met anybody from battalion in Germany. We were in another town from them. I wasn't really familiar with anything that happened at battalion at Carson, either. I lived next door to it, too. I did go to NTC with the Scouts. They were in battalion.

I didn't even know what S1 did. If they're the records people, I guess they might know what the SFC has done. I don't know much about what happens in battalion.

I do know what the Class VI is, though. I had extensive experience with those people.

...good people.

quote:

Originally posted by PepeLep:

I do know what the Class VI is, though. I had extensive experience with those people.

...good people.

You knew them too?
They were my best friends.

quote:

Originally posted by PepeLep:
Is that what S1 is? I don't think I ever met one of them.

Yes S1 is in charge of Personal Administrative matters for the BN. I ran into them repeatedly in Germany with the 41st Infantry trying to get schools. The old way in the 1980's before Al Gore invented the Internet was to approach the S1 with a form requesting a school if you wanted to request it yourself, I think you had to get the 1SGT to sign it before you walked it over. I already forgot the form number. Thats how it worked in Mech because the 1SGT was usually too busy to care.

41st Infantry did records check once every 3-6 months. 187th Infantry did it when we would go on Alert status or had a EDRE. Approx the same frequency.

At the 101st all you had to do is just ask your PSG for a school and that was it. Never ran into the S1 at Fort Campbell. Strange how the procedures were different back then depending on the Division.

S2 I think was intelligence. Only ran into them prior to crossing the border with East Germany or some kind of threat or intel briefing.....typically a CPT or MAJ that was overly paranoid about OPSEC, Terrorism, and Communist radical groups.....kind of like the Colonel Wind character on MASH 4077 (heh-heh, but serious). They'd pop up make all sorts of threats about UCMJ for a security breech then poof....into thin air for a few months.

S3 - I think was arranging training / manuever areas for the unit and for movement of the unit.