Hey everyone.

I'm an E4 without any college currently in Baghdad. Recently I've suffered home problems. My girl of 2 years broke it off with me, and two days later, a good friend of mine contracted Prostate Cancer. On the 29th, the day after I found out about the cancer, I failed my PT Test run, simply because I hadn't had sleep the 3 days prior. Tommorow, the 31st, I'm scheduled for a retake that I'm not quite sure if I'm ready for. I have never failed a PT test before in my military career before yesterday.

My NCOIC tells me that if I do not pass this PT test tommorow that I will be flagged and be uneligible to recieve my education benefits to pay for college among other veteran benefits. Also, I will not be able to recieve and end of tour award. She also states that taking a PT test later (late November) will do nothing for the flag, and I will still have to deal with the losses of the aforementioned.

I've never heard of anyone losing education benefits totally, such as my Post 911 GI Bill and Kicker, because of PT. I'm not worried about promotion, as I just recieved my E4 in April, and I can understand the tour award.

I am very scared about my education benefits, and am unsure if she would say something like that to scare me into passing so that it won't show up on her NCODP. If anyone has any answers I would very much appreciate it.

Additional info:
I'm a 68W10 in the WI National Guard. No UCMJ or PT failures prior to yesterday. Not sure if that helps, but hey.

Thank you all in advance.

Sounds like your chief is trying to motivate you.

What to do.
First, PASS your APFT! If its the lack of sleep and personal situation that influenced the failure, put all that in the back of your mind. Get a good night's sleep before hand. Then the problem should be solved.

While you're at it, review AR600-8-2 (Suspension of Personnel Favorable Actions (FLAGS)), if for no other reason to educate yourself and become more familiar with Regulatory Guidance.

Note para 1-10
1–10. Standards of service
d. A flag will be removed immediately when a soldier’s status changes from unfavorable to favorable


Awards & Decorations can be denied for a flag, BUT Note Para 1-15.

1–15. Processing exceptions
a. APFT.
(1) Flags for APFT failure block promotion, reenlistment, and extension only.
(2) A flag is not initiated if the soldier has a limiting physical profile that specifically prohibits taking the APFT.

This does not mean that a unit does not do deny decorations for a FLAG, they can't put 'denied because of flag', but they can just not put you in for one. Same difference. Service awards such as Iraq Campaign, etc. are beyond the unit's control. But again, pass the APFT and you won't need to worry about it.

Education benifts, etc don't evaporate forever for a FLAG. Once the FLAG is lifted, you're good to go.

What NOT TO DO:
Challenge your NCOIC between now and the retake.
Challenge your NCOIC after a repeat failure. She does not have the power to flag or unflag you. Note para 2-1 and 2-7.

2–1. Rules for initiating the flag
b. The commander (or general officer staff head) directs the flagging action.

2–7. Rules for removing the flag
a. The commander (or general officer staff head) directs removal of the flag.

These things happen as a matter of routine personnel service operations. Stop fretting about 'what if' and concentrate on maintaining your soldier skills, which includes physical fitness. Once you get yourself squared away - the sooner the better - you'll be alright.

Ha! your a Red Arrow?


BTW, I'm in Milwaukee suburb right now....it's freakin cold and rainy here. These people up here keep blowing their horns at me for being a overly polite driver also 94 leaving Miwaukee Westbound is all jacked up so is the Airport Spur to Mitchell Field. Stuck in freeway traffic after 10:00 p.m.....eck. Can't wait to get back to Dallas, Texas on Monday, OK sorry but I had some complaining to do about this State (heh-heh).

quote:

Originally posted by redleg13f:

These things happen as a matter of routine personnel service operations. Stop fretting about 'what if' and concentrate on maintaining your soldier skills, which includes physical fitness. Once you get yourself squared away - the sooner the better - you'll be alright.

That's the best advice. the only way I know of to lose your educational benefits, is a bad conduct discharge, or you get out before 2 years. That was active duty, not sure about reserves. Don't sweat it, and kick some butt on your PT test. If your in any kind of decent shape, you should have no preoblem with at least passing it. Good luck, and let us know.

Cold (for Texas) and raining here to E.

Any discharge from any branch with less than a Full Honorable Discharge would cause you to lose your VA Education Benefits. Also you lose all entitlement to MGIB-SR after you seperate from Guard/Reserve. The Mobilization would qualify you for REAP or Post 9/11 GI Bill Programs - check out both before you make your decision.

While on Active Duty, being flagged for APFT failure would deny one the ability to use Tuition Assistance and would affect eligibility for the MGIB-SR or REAP as Guard/Reservist have to have a valid NOBE which may be revoked at anytime by the Commander.

Thanks for clarifying that, MSG.

Bottom line is get a GO on the APFT and it'll be alright.

While on the subject, MSG, how does that pan out for a mobilized soldier?
Reserve component soldier gets mobilized. While mobilized soldier fails APFT. Soldier gets flaged. Soldier is still flaged at time of demobilzation and REFRAD to the reserve component, but is not ETSing. The soldier is not being discharged or denied reenlistment because of the flag, the unit mobilization is just ending. Does the flag influence the type of discharge on the individual's DD214? My last mobilization had troops that were APFT and Higt/weight NOGOs at demoilization and I'm pretty sure they all recieved Honorables.

quote:

Originally posted by redleg13f:
Thanks for clarifying that, MSG.

Bottom line is get a GO on the APFT and it'll be alright.

While on the subject, MSG, how does that pan out for a mobilized soldier?
Reserve component soldier gets mobilized. While mobilized soldier fails APFT. Soldier gets flaged. Soldier is still flaged at time of demobilzation and REFRAD to the reserve component, but is not ETSing. The soldier is not being discharged or denied reenlistment because of the flag, the unit mobilization is just ending. Does the flag influence the type of discharge on the individual's DD214? My last mobilization had troops that were APFT and Higt/weight NOGOs at demoilization and I'm pretty sure they all recieved Honorables.

1. All flagging actions deny reenlistment and promotions.

2. The Commander would have to initiate paperwork to charaterize the discharge as other than honorable.

quote:

Originally posted by redleg13f:
Thanks for clarifying that, MSG.

Bottom line is get a GO on the APFT and it'll be alright.

While on the subject, MSG, how does that pan out for a mobilized soldier?
Reserve component soldier gets mobilized. While mobilized soldier fails APFT. Soldier gets flaged. Soldier is still flaged at time of demobilzation and REFRAD to the reserve component, but is not ETSing. The soldier is not being discharged or denied reenlistment because of the flag, the unit mobilization is just ending. Does the flag influence the type of discharge on the individual's DD214? My last mobilization had troops that were APFT and Higt/weight NOGOs at demoilization and I'm pretty sure they all recieved Honorables.

In reality, nothing happens and the Soldier receives an honorable discharge.

In reference to OP's question, the GI Bill used by NG Soldiers requires the Soldier to remain in good standing to continue to receive the benefit. So unless he's using his GI Bill in Iraq, he'll just be flagged until he passes the APFT.

OK guys, I've been retired for many years now but PT test while in Iraq? Flagging while deployed? Things must have changed quite abit and does not sound for the better. While in Iraq are you getting regular PT?

quote:

flagged and be uneligible to recieve my education benefits to pay for college among other veteran benefits. Also, I will not be able to recieve and end of tour award.

Sounds like she's blowing smoke up your fourth point of contact. Not the best way to motivate your troops in a combat zone.

quote:

Originally posted by retireddoggie:
OK guys, I've been retired for many years now but PT test while in Iraq? Flagging while deployed? Things must have changed quite abit and does not sound for the better. While in Iraq are you getting regular PT?

Okay, I feel like going on a rant...

In September 2003 the reaction in my unit was "you can't be serious..." as our Battalion told us our APFT was due. The conditions have vastly improved since then, but at the time there was no AC, just sporadic power and MRE's for just about every meal. KBR was just getting established. To top it off, mission shifts were 12 hours, not counting prep and travel time. And they want an APFT? I always understood the APFT to be a measure for the Commander to determine the level of fitness of his unit and ability to perform it's combat mission. Well, we were doing the combat mission every day, 24/7. He doesn't need a test to tell him we're capable.
Battalion said, "you're on active duty now and the APFT is administered every 6 months, regulations don't give a combat zone exception". Okay, whatever. The only thing an APFT failure did then was deny your mid tour leave. How F'd-up is that? That was not right, and I'm still bitter about that. I had a Joe that was a big guy. He was capable and dependable, and he'd carry his weight and carry someone els'e too if they needed help. But he could'nt pass the 2M run. Meanwhile you had 300+ PT "studs" that could'nt walk from here to there with an IBA on without passing out. Guess who wasn't allowed on leave to see his kids...

So there we were, listening to the LT tell us "The pushup event measures...." interupted by a THUMP.....SWOOSH (overhead)....BOOM. The Al Rasheed hotel was getting mortared again, and we were on the gun-target line. Great. I could see the headlines: "30 troops killed as mortar lands in PT formation..."

Don't get me wrong, the APFT has a purpose and a soldier needs to be able to pass it. But there's a time and a place for it, and that wasn't it.

There were some very good points brought up in this thread. First I find it very suspect, to conduct a APFT in a combat zone during a deployment. If you fail and are flagged, are you're considered non-deployable. Correct me if I am wrong, but when I was in if you were flagged you couldn't deploy? If so will you be sent home to garrison in the middle of a deployment if you are flagged?

Also is this a unit command decision or a theater command decision. Are company, battery, and battalion commanders using this as a tool to deny mid tour leave? This is something that should concern the Army Command. You would think this is something that would have been addressed by the overall General Command Staff in written policy. I will asked my Colonel if I see him next week.

I'm not sure about in service educational benefits, but I have seen people separated from active duty due to things such as weight control failure and similar other problems. As long as they received honorable discharge their GI Bill and Army College Fund was not effected.

In a final note, minimum standards are just that. They are designed to be passed under less than favorable circumstances. I think just the knowledge of not passing the first one will give you the push to pass this one. Good Luck!

once again proving that constant contact with the "homefront" is not always a good thing while deployed to a combat zone. Of course a PT test in a combat zone is one of the most REMF stup*d ass*D idea some Fobbit came up with yet. But yes they do exist as our unit was also required to take one. It is what happens when these "came up in the ranks and made Colonel outside any war time experience" yahoos get promoted. They bring their "Garrison mentality" over to a warzone with em.

quote:

Originally posted by C000lhandluke:
As long as they received honorable discharge their GI Bill and Army College Fund was not effected.

Wisconsin NG has a few extras:

1. They get a break on State tutition at state schools which I believe also applies to MN because of a reciprocation agreement. I don't think WIARNG controls this at all. I thought it was given by the state, I could be wrong though.

2. Not sure how the GI Bill applies on top of the above. The first is state sponsored. GI Bill is Federally or VA sponsored.

3. They might offer some reimbursement via the NG in addition to the above, in which case the NG would have a say.

I would think a flag wouldn't have an impact on VA administered GI Bill benefits anymore then it would on USAA Membership. As long as service is Honorable. They might have changed it though since I was in.

With NG you have to be careful with Veteran Benefits because each state tends to be somewhat different in benefits in some areas. Texas grants Veterans home priveleges to Vets as well as Medical Care in some cases, on top of what the Army or NG provides...I thought.

BTW, Since OP might be Red Arrow, have to post the below link (remove the two plus signs in front):

++http://www.servingthe32nd.org/index.php?module=Latest_News

^^^^ (how cool is that?)

A buddy refreshed my memory about the APFT. Leave wasn't "denied" for a failure, you were dropped to the bottom of the order of merit list, which had the same effect, because not everyone was able to go on leave because of mission & timelines.
I know some will think, 'well that's different'. I suppose it may be, but there were other things that added to the whole way privileges were given and taken that were not right.

As for deploying with a flag, it depended on what it was. A failed APFT would not prevent being deployed. If that were the case, there'd be a whole lot of Joes and Janes that would have played that get out of jail free card.

Command policy? Well, that was over five years ago now. A whole lotta HMFICs have come and gone since then, each with thier own ideas of what is necessary and what is not.

I've been out almost 16 years so you may be right redleg. I was almost sure though, that in my unit once you were flagged, you were non-deployable. And yes we had a ton of people using that get out of jail free card, from pregnancy to a large assortment of issues. By the time deployment started, the unit was extremely shorthanded.

About command poicy, I was speaking more on the theater level. You know most high ranking commanders release a stack of policies concerning their command. During my time at Bliss, our Post Commander made every 3 day weekend, a mandatory 4 day weekend. If Monday was holiday, we were also given Friday off as well. Except for mission essential of course. We also had a written command policy of what nightclubs and bars were off limits. That was just a few I could think of off the top of my head, but their were other concerning PT, POVs, motorcycles, Juarez, among other things. I'm sure there is a written policy covering PT and the APFT during deployment to SWA, it just may not prohibit test.

Just a thought.

quote:

Originally posted by ErichG2:
I would think a flag wouldn't have an impact on VA administered GI Bill benefits anymore then it would on USAA Membership. As long as service is Honorable. They might have changed it though since I was in.

NG/USAR Soldiers do not pay into their GI Bill vs AC Soldiers and can use it upon completion of AIT. A flag can effect thier GI Bill/Kicker.

quote:

Originally posted by _JB:
NG/USAR Soldiers do not pay into their GI Bill vs AC Soldiers and can use it upon completion of AIT. A flag can effect thier GI Bill/Kicker.

That really sucks. If a service branch promises someone educational benefits in lieu of a enlistment. That shouldn't be revokable because someone gets upset over a failed PT test or someone being overwieght.

If the tool is not needed in the tool chest for Active Duty really I think the Reserves would be hard pressed to explain how thats needed for USAR or NG.

Wonder if Congress knows about this BS?

quote:

Originally posted by ErichG2:

quote:

Originally posted by _JB:
NG/USAR Soldiers do not pay into their GI Bill vs AC Soldiers and can use it upon completion of AIT. A flag can effect thier GI Bill/Kicker.

That really sucks. If a service branch promises someone educational benefits in lieu of a enlistment. That shouldn't be revokable because someone gets upset over a failed PT test or someone being overwieght.

If the tool is not needed in the tool chest for Active Duty really I think the Reserves would be hard pressed to explain how thats needed for USAR or NG.

Wonder if Congress knows about this BS?

Yes Congress does - they wrote this into the law - Guard/Reserve soldiers must be in good standing with their unit - which is why these soldiers must have a NOBE (Notice of Basic Eligibiity) signed by their unit commander or representative on file with VA to collect their education benefits. Just had a Guard soldier in the other day with a letter from VA about stopping his benefits mid-semester - failed APFT - was flagged - cdr mailed VA a revoke of the NOBE.

The problem is the definition of "Good Standing". It was designed to make sure people using the GI Bill with the guard didn't just graduate AIT and never show up again. The term is used so widely that it equates to "Commander likes this person" when put into practice.