Was always a big fan of these aircraft for some reason...kind'a reminded me of a "poor mans" Phantom in some way.



RAF Jaguars Leave Service After 33 Years

(Source: UK Ministry of Defence; issued April 25, 2007)

The MOD announced today, Wednesday 25 April 2007, that the RAF's ten remaining Jaguar aircraft will leave service after 33 years at the end of April 2007.

In July 2004 MOD announced the Jaguar would reach the end of its distinguished service during 2007. The ageing Jaguar is being replaced by the much more capable multi-role Typhoon aircraft, with the Tornado fleet taking on the bulk of the Jaguar's air-to-ground role.

As the RAF has no plans to use the Jaguars on operations, the decision has been taken to take them out of operational service on 30 April 2007.

This decision will ensure that the Typhoon's air-to-ground capability can be established more quickly. Many Jaguar personnel will re-deploy to the Typhoon Force ahead of their planned dates and be part of the work-up for operational deployment of the aircraft. No 11 Squadron, the first squadron to bring in the Typhoon's air-to-surface capability, will now be able to establish itself in its permanent accommodation sooner, and build on the momentum it has created thus far.

RAF Coltishall, the spiritual home to the Jaguar, closed in September 2006.

A disbandment event for 6 Squadron, the last Jaguar squadron, is planned for 25 May 2007 at RAF Coningsby. This will include the last flypast of the RAF Jaguar Squadron.

-ends-

Saw No. 6 Squadron on their swansong up near Shrewsbury the other day.
Sad to see them go prematurely, particularly when they could have had one last tour of Afghanistan.

Have to say I never really though it looked much like a Phantom, it always seemed a very rugged looking aircraft though.

Yep the Jaguar has'nt done bad, especially as it was originally designed as a training aircraft.

It was a nice weapons platform, all the pylons on the mainplane at shoulder height and even the centreline pylon did'nt have you struggling to get a 1000lb er fitted. The only weird thing on the aircraft was the over wing Sidewinder, other than that it was a nice aircraft to work on.


Cry Haddock! Let slip the Cod of War! Captain Birdseye.

Bearing in mind the cost of a Jaguar as opposed to that of a Typhoon. Are we going to be seeing CAS redefined by the RAF with ineffective engagement heights? (Those would have Blue on Blue written all over it.)

I am not saying they automatically would do but I have my cynical head on.

Has any serious thought gone into purchasing A10's from the Nevada desert mothball centres?

quote:

Originally posted by trench4450:

Has any serious thought gone into purchasing A10's from the Nevada desert mothball centres?

Doubtful, it's been said before but the A10 is not fast enough and not cool enough for the fast-jet maffia that run the RAF.

I was listening to a discussion on Typhoon and the speaker claimed the 'Blue Circle Airways' tradition lives on inasmuch as they could not afford guns for the thing and therefore cement is in the cannon mount cavities to maintain trim.

Could someone confirm or (hopefully) refute this statement?

Trench,

me old mate guns on fast jets, waste of space, just more weight to carry any aircraft gun of a modern fast jet the range is so limited and the speed you are flying at is so fast that it is unlikley before you can aqquire, aim and press the trigger you have overshot the target.

Jets use missiles and start engaging other enemy aircraft at over 70Km with things AMRAAM and down to about 17KM with ASRAAM and Sidewinders. So it is not a question of the RAF not being able to afford guns it is just that guns are a usless waste of space and weight on a modern fast jet. Trust me it was looked at and decided against fitting guns years ago.

'Blue Circle Airways harks back to the F-15 Tornado when it first came out and the government of the day had decided to opt for a cheap radar that did not work properly and so the Tornado fighter world was called 'Blue Circle Airways' by the rest of the RAF and then the media got hold of it and started calling all of the RAF that name, without any understanding of what was meant by the term.

This only once again goes to prove that the media generally are a bunch of prats only beaten to the title of complete prats by the UK's Politicians whoe I am afraid must keeep the title of 'Complete and Utter useless Prats'.

Rant over!

Cry Haddock! Let slip the Cod of War! Captain Birdseye.

The problem with that pronouncement on guns Fletch, is that they've decided to fit one after all. This is mainly to allow some limited ground-strafing ability in a desperate attempt by the fast-jet mafia that run Crab Air to justify such a vast expenditure on a plane that was originally designed for air-to-air work.

Okay, quickie for Fletch from someone who knows as much about air fighting as he does about quantum physics...

When was the last time a fast jet shot down another fast jet with guns?

I may be able to get my head around the 'missiles only' thinking if it was yonks ago.

Trench, I think the Indian airforce shot down a couple of Pakistani jets in 2000 I think this was the last time a jet was shot down, however I am willing to be informed of others if I am wrong.

Blade you are correct. In 2001, it was decided that the Royal Air Force would not use the aircraft's internal 27 mm Mauser cannon. This was due to a desire to save money by removing gun support costs, ammunition stocks, training costs, etc. The gun was also deemed unnecessary since the missile armament was believed to be adequate in the Typhoon's fighter role. However, because removal of the cannon would affect the aircraft's flight characteristics, requiring modification of the aircraft's flight software the RAF decided that all of its Typhoons would be fitted with the cannon but that it would not be used or supported.

The service argued that this would save money by reducing the requirement for ground equipment, removing training costs and avoiding the fatigue effects of firing the cannon. The RAF maintained the option to activate the cannons at very short notice were operational requirements to change. However in a third change of policy, the Daily Telegraph reported in October 2006 that the RAF will fully utilise the cannon. Below is the article from the Telegraph.
The RAF has been forced into an embarrassing U-turn on its policy of not allowing pilots of the new Eurofighter Typhoon to fire their gun. The service has decided to issue ammunition to future Typhoon squadrons and train pilots in using the fighter's single German-made 27mm Mauser cannon, reversing its cost-cutting edict.
The decision follows experience in Afghanistan showing that guns are still one of the most effective weapons when supporting ground troops in a scathing e-mail, a Parachute Regiment major commanding an isolated outpost described air support from RAF Harriers, which have no guns and rely on rockets, as "utterly, utterly useless". He contrasted their performance with the support offered by US air force A10 aircraft, which are equipped with a 27mm rotary cannon.
At a conference last week, Air Vice-Marshal David Walker, the officer commanding No 1 Group, which includes the Harrier and the newly-forming Typhoon squadrons, said he had decided to proceed with the Typhoon gun, buying ammunition, spares and maintenance equipment. Seven years ago, the ministry decided to dispense with the gun on all but the first 55 of the 232 Typhoons planned for RAF service, in contrast to the other nations in the Eurofighter consortium, which kept it on all ordered aircraft.
The experts argued that Typhoon did not need anything as crude as a gun. The plan would have saved the taxpayer about £90 million. But Typhoon is designed to such fine specifications that the loss of the gun created a weight imbalance and it was finally realised that the cheaper and easier option would be to fit a real cannon.
So I stand corrected the RAF will fit guns, proving once again that whenever the British Army say ‘Sh*t’ the RAF senior officers bend and take the strain. The main trouble with the RAF today is the RAF’s senior officers who are s*it scared of any form of criticism, especially from the Army. So to summerise even though the RAF know that this gun will never be used in air to air combat and will probably never be used in ground strafing, it has decided to spend millions knowing this to be a waste of money. All because a Major in the Army critisised them in an e-mail.
Incidentally the Telegraph has got it slightly wrong the A-10 is armed with the 30mm GAU-8 gun and carries shed loads of bullets and I still fail to see how you are going to hit a ground target in mountainous terrain with the Typhoon aircraft that has a top speed of Mach2, even traveling slowly on an attack run it is going to be too fast and the aircraft does not carry enough ammunition for sustained ground attacks.

Cry Haddock! Let slip the Cod of War! Captain Birdseye.

Cheers Fletch.

I have to say though that calling a cannon 'crude' in one breath and stating in another that they save costs by doing without, is like calling a bayonet too old fashioned to be effective and therefore to be dispensed with because its less weight to be carried.

Two quotes for the ranks of the Neveroperational Expert the MOD has a hard on for these days (Usually Accountants and such)...

1/ If it works - Do It

2/ If its not broke, don't fix it.

Thanks for the insider view mate.

Posted by Fletch

quote:

So I stand corrected the RAF will fit guns, proving once again that whenever the British Army say ‘Sh*t’ the RAF senior officers bend and take the strain. The main trouble with the RAF today is the RAF’s senior officers who are s*it scared of any form of criticism, especially from the Army. So to summerise even though the RAF know that this gun will never be used in air to air combat and will probably never be used in ground strafing, it has decided to spend millions knowing this to be a waste of money. All because a Major in the Army critisised them in an e-mail.

Another quick point (sorry)

In these days of downsizing and refocusing on a different type of war (not dissimilar to 1950's 'bush wars') against aggressive insurgent forces with no air force of their own, no big ships or armour. The RAF has to take a hard look at itself. Granted, using Typhoons for CAS is like using racehorses to pull carts but aside from troop carrying choppers what else can they field that can play a role in counter insurgency (aside from the Rock Apes)?
We would be dumb to turn our big(ish) ships and main battle tanks into razor blades and dumb to do away with fast jets, but the RAF and Navy are somewhat lacking in the ability to contribute by providing CAS and inshore capable gun boats.
That is not a criticism of airmen and matelows who do the real work but of Whitehall and senior RAF and RN officers.

It is true Trench, we do not have very good CAS aircraft and that is the fault of government, useless chods. I think the RAF's main contribution to counter insurgency is that it does transport (Hercules, Tristars, C-47, etc) all of the troops required for the operations and re-supplies the troops once they are there and most important of all we bring them home again when they are done.

Not to mention the IED and EOD commitment that the RAF supply (5131 BD Squadron) as well as Rock Apes.


Cry Haddock! Let slip the Cod of War! Captain Birdseye.

Many condolences to the NOK of the RAF personnel killed in the mortar attack in Basra airport.

The official end to the Jaguar was marked with a large '6' formation in the skies above Coningsby; the real end was the last flight into Cosford on 2 July 2007, marked with no ceremony - indeed, the MoD didn't even bother to send an official photographer. Thankfully the personnel of DCAE Cosford were of similar minds to those in 6 Squadron and gave permission for a couple of civilian photographers to be on the airfield to record those final RAF Jaguar flights.

Anyone interested have a look at the pictures and article here: http://www.airsceneuk.org.uk/hangar/2007/441jags/jags.htm


Cry Haddock! Let slip the Cod of War! Captain Birdseye.

quote:

Originally posted by Fletch238:
The official end to the Jaguar was marked with a large '6' formation in the skies above Coningsby; the real end was the last flight into Cosford on 2 July 2007, marked with no ceremony - indeed, the MoD didn't even bother to send an official photographer. Thankfully the personnel of DCAE Cosford were of similar minds to those in 6 Squadron and gave permission for a couple of civilian photographers to be on the airfield to record those final RAF Jaguar flights.

Anyone interested have a look at the pictures and article here: http://www.airsceneuk.org.uk/hangar/2007/441jags/jags.htm


Cry Haddock! Let slip the Cod of War! Captain Birdseye.

Well, we knew it would get worse under Gordon Brown.

Yes Trench, like you I fear this is just the start of things to come under Brown. We will not be armed forces soon, this country will have a defence force.


Cry Haddock! Let slip the Cod of War! Captain Birdseye.