Scout Sniper school has been my first exposure to a wide array of knowledge on Mission Planning and Patrolling, and yet these concepts are presented to us students as *basic* 0311 knowledge with some minor additional employment concepts suited to the SS team leader.

I would stake a large sum of money, laying lopsided odds to boot, that 90%+ of the team leaders, and at least half of the squad leaders in my entire battalion would miserably fail my Mission Planning and Employment tests, which included things such as the 12 patrol steps, employment fundamentals of the offense and defense, terrain model components and briefing, each individual part of patrol orders and warning orders, in depth immediate action considerations (not just "get on line and assault through the objective"), and a plethora more...again, mostly the basics of 0311 squad employment/mission concepts.

This sort of knowledge seems to me essential for any degree of not just success but basic cohesion on a battlefield, yet all that was passed on to me and my fellow boot buddies from any of our seniors was the "other" kind of knowledge...the relatively useless kind such as specifications and nomenclature on various weapon systems followed by the class on how even the thought of pulling the trigger on any of these weapon systems would result in an investigation.

And yet my battalion was very successful in Iraq last year.

What is your take on the importance of knowledge for an 0311 TL or Squad Leader in Iraq 2008? Iraq 2003-4?

"Importance" of knowledge, well frankly there is an overwhelming amount of **** that a grunt team leader/squad leader either should know or is commonly expected to know nowadays, almost to the point where it's extremely uncommon that you would actually find anyone who does have pinpoint knowledge of all of it.

I suppose it would include everything in 6-5, everything in the orders process to the point of being able to outdo an OCS candidate, all the organic battalion weapons specs, ranges, and employment, comm, first aid, land nav, MOUT, convoy ops, enemy weapons and TTPs, etc etc etc...sure i'm missing plenty...

Since there is no standard curriculum of teaching junior Marines to be team leaders, team leaders to be squad leaders, etc, other than "Do your MCI's" and "Don't **** up", whatever someone knows is usually either individual initiative, being lucky enough to have an extremely knowledgeable/competent mentor who takes the time to pass on everything in his brain housing group, getting a crap ton of field experience, or all the above.

you think that tiny sliver of knowledge you gained has somehow made your brain housing group into something spectacular?

try Ranger school or maybe pathfinder, or better yet just try to employ what they taught you on an everyday in the field basis. You'lll be surprised how often 'The Book' gets chucked out the window and you have to plan by the seat of your pants Marine.

Having been A Ranger, Cavalry Scout and 03 and a Qualified Scout Sniper you are going to find yourself if you're lucky, lets hope you are, briefing your Bn Cdr on how to properly employ you and your teams and telling him/showing him what your capabilities are.

Funky has the idea though learn everything you can about everything you can. Go as far as we did and get mortars to give you a class on direct lay. Play cards with Heavy Guns and learn how to do basic maintenance on 50's. Go hang out with 51's and learn some demo, pretty much suck every bonehead dry of info you can find including Admin.

Nelson is correct. A good TL or SL will go out on his own to suck as much knowledge as he can from guys that have been there done that. You can't always rely on your more senior Marines to go out of their way to teach you this stuff. As a SL I always felt what good is all the knowledge I have if no one else in my squad knows it. My squad *****ed and moaned about getting extra classes from me and extra training when other squads were jerking each other off, but it definately benefited when we deployed.

Also some senior Marines might not realize that you need that knowledge so they wont offer it up. When I picked up Sgt I got sent to another platoon so I could get my own squad. We didn't know each other at all. So I basically threw a kegar and a bbq at my apartment and got to know them that way. I also assumed that they knew almost nothing so started my classes with the basics. Alot of it was redundant but it also helped develope squad SOP's.

Also learning how to do it by the book is a necessity. The book is the building blocks of how all battle drills and operations operate. You can't run until you've walked and crawled first. You don't have to use the book in every situation obviously but it's nice to have and to know.

Like Nelson said suck your superiors dry of all possible knowledge. And when you become a leader remember that knowledge and pass it on. Don't be that guy that knows everything but doesn't give that info out. And while your guys will piss and moan train the **** out of them. I probably have ADHD so sitting around doing nothing when you could be training makes me all fidgety. Even sitting around the barracks waiting for the bosses to get back from something (probably golf) you can conduct trraining with your squad. Will they complain when they see the other squads jerking each other off? Hell yeah but when you deploy they'll appreciate it. I am a firm believer in that saying "The more you sweat in training the less you'll bleed in war" Oh and remember just like in the defense how your defensive position is "never complete" same thing with knowledge. Your training is never complete.

I recently completed ISLC, Infantry Squad Leaders Course, and if you ever have the opportunity to take the course, do it. The wealth of knowledge that I received from the course was unbelievable.

It covered the T/O weapons systems to a rifle company, including the 240B, AT-4, Smaw, claymores and demo. It also covered the proper employment when attached to a squad. Call for fire and doing actual fire missions. Comm how to load and utilize (interesting to see how many dont know how to load a 119 or 148)

How to write a 5-paragraph order, you know that thing with all the acronyms OSMEAC BAMCIS SALUTE DRAW-DG EMPCOA HASS, a warning order utilizing the 1/3 time rule, patrol overlay with primary and alternate routes, tactical control measures

How to do a proper day and night assault (illuminated and unilluminated)

It was about 11 weeks with a good mix of class and field time to properly learn. PT was really good, not the regular green-on-green death runs.

This is NCO level training??? What are you learning in SOI??? Where are your SNCOs and why aren't they reinforcing a learning mentality??? You stand at parade rest for them yet they're not training you up before, during and after your deployments???

We covered all the material you write about and much more in Infantry Training Regiment (ITR-4 weeks basic field), Basic Intantry Training (BITS-4 weeks MOS specific intermediate field/company weapons famfire) and Stagging Battalion (4 weeks ITR review/replacement training). Then when you joined your unit your fellow squad members brought you up to speed on how to apply everything you learned in the real world.

Within 6-8 weeks overseas you knew how to train and even brief anyone on anything because you knew your job or you and the Devils around you ran the risk of getting holes put in your body where they didn't belong. In fact, it was common for Brothers to quiz boot Brothers constantly to help everyone stay alive. Like you, it was all about taking care of each other be it calling in a medevac, call for fire, laying a base of fire and assaulting in bush based on how their weapons fire would be degraded.

You assault thru an ambush??? Thats suicide in forest country until you know their disposition or they'll suck you in like we learned to do from them. Thats why you go for hill tops because it tires the attacker and increases your range of vision and greande throwing. All you have to do is call for fire and when they get real close fire your FPF and let them walk through a wall of steel into your unit's weapon fire. Remember, Vietnam was a squad-platoon size war so everyone had to know how to do it all and that mentality survived well beyond the war.

Assaults are based on who finds who first irrespective of time of day/night or weather conditions. A good principal is to kill the sucker today so you don't have to face them tomorrow. I know this is old hat for you field Devils but I'm stating the obvious for arguement sake. Be very careful about night illum because it degrades your vision and gives Hostile a pretty good idea where you are otherwise you wouldn't be using it. It's the same idea as counting muzzle flashes at night because that can mess you up too if they're in close enough. Of course at that point you simply throw grenades so they can't count your muzzle flashes and follow your tracers back to you.

motarded, I see they still have it(squad leaders course) I was the second class to go through it(83) 30 days in the field, classes in the field then field ops, very little sleep and a whole lot of cs, sh/t they popped cs any time they wanted to, but yeah it's a GREAT course AND a great course for knowledge, learned everything about our job, at the end you had a final exam

as a nco and a sl I believe it's your responsibility to dessimate information(knowledge), I would give small classes any time, be it field or garison, I always gave the responsibility to each of the squad members to take turns at leadership which included all the things a sl had to know, fire missions, 5 paragraph order, ect...

this parade rest for snco when did this come about? I never heard of it or did it

Rick

quote:

Originally posted by cpl_203:
this parade rest for snco when did this come about? I never heard of it or did it

Rick

Rick, I remember doing this! It was 'Attention' for an Officer, and 'Parade Rest' for a SNCO. It was the respect the lower ranks showed for the authority of the rank, and unless you were told to be 'at ease' by the Officer, or the SNCO, you had better snap to it. It was called discipline and military protocol. It may not have been witten in any book about the SNCO, but it was what we did. If they had something to say to you, it was your duty to listen with your undivided attantion to what was being said.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Deanosaur:
This is NCO level training??? What are you learning in SOI??? QUOTE]

Deanasour. You learn most of that stuff but at the most basic level. THe purpose of SOI is to qualify you as a basic rifleman with the basic fundamentals of an infantryman. It is expected to learn the more indepth details and knowledge from your team leaders and your squad leader. It's their job to teach their squad members the training they need.

This is why I was a huge training Nazi with my squad. Not only was it to ensure as many of them made it home as possible but it was also for self preservation. If I have a bunch of slobbering retards in my squad then my chances of not making it back multiply. If your a squad leader and you only teach the bare minimums then you need to be fired.

Your most boot pvt may not need to have the orders process down pact but they better know how to work a radio, procedures for a raid, patroling, react to contact, an ambush, cordon and search, hand and arm signals. And most important of all I made sure every swinging Richard knew how to call in a 9-Line in their sleep. I also basically stole our medic and had him drill us constantly. Also made sure everyone knew how to extract a vehicle and each other underfire. I also had a squad leader for a day program in my squad, which worked pretty well. I also had my team leaders do a team leader for a day, to ensure everyone crosstrained for leadership.

There's obviously a million things to know in our line of work and the less a team has to think and just reacts the better.

Come to think of it maybe I just love teaching people stuff. Makes my ego swell. Must be little man syndrome