The discussion about whether or not today's junior Marines are weak or not got me thinking about something that has always irritated me in the fleet. Does hazing make you a better Marine?

I joined the Marine Corps in January of 2006, and graduated SOI as an 0351. I was originally assigned to 3/1 at Camp Horno on Camp Pendleton where I fell into one of their line companies. There, my senior Lance Corporals, and especially my team leader, hazed the **** out of me in as many physical and mental ways as I thought possible. I quickly came to understand that as one of the junior, or undeployed Marines, I was entitled to nothing but the worst. Yes, Lance Corporal. No, Lance Corporal. Aye, Lance Corporal. Working party up. We lived in squad bays, and so every morning firewatch would flick on the lights and sound reveille. (Senior Marines rarely, if ever, stand firewatch.) With that, my fellow boots and I would roll out of the rack and begin morning cleanup. As a nonsmoker, I especially enjoyed police calling all the cigarette butts senior Lance Corporals would manage to flick in every direction other than toward the butt can. But, it had to get done. Now and then I'd have to roll a senior Lance Corporal's sleeves too, because that's just what boots do. Soon thereafter it came time for morning formation. Chipped chevrons were boot suicide, despite the gleaming cross rifles of the senior Marines who inspected us, and IPs were sometimes an issue too, but only every so often. Then we'd all go to morning chow, and a boot or two might be tasked with getting breakfast for a senior Lance Corporal. Senior Lance Corporals don't need to get their own breakfast that early in the morning. Afterward, we'd usually PT, but heaven help the boot who fell back in a run. Luckily, I've always been a decent runner, and so I never had too many problems with PT. Now and then a junior Marine might fall back into the senior Lance Corporal onslaught though, reminding me that you don't have to outrun the bear, you just have to outrun your buddy. So I ran. I called cadence, and I watched as so many senior Lance Corporals fell behind the teams that they led. When we'd go out to the field I'd carry the SMAW rocket launcher, and I was expected to know every bit of knowledge pertaining to it on a moments notice, or otherwise be hazed. I don't think my team or squad leaders could have done the same, though. Everything was dummy-corded. Everything was boot-proofed. When the ranges were over, the boots would police call while the senior Lance Corporals led us on from behind. Getting back to the armory ment undoing all your dummy cords while the senior Lance Corporals cut ahead of you in the line to the gate. Senior Lance Corporals do not wait. At the end of the day, libo was sounded, and I might work on another MCI. It wasn't unlikely for junior Marines to have completed more MCIs than their team leaders. And then we'd do it all over again the next day. Life sucked.

It sounds perfect. It sounds like I had outstanding leadership. And for the most part, I did. But, I couldn't help but wonder while I was doing hello dollies behind a bush so higher-ups wouldn't see my squad leader hazing me if there was a better way of teaching junior Marines their lessons. Why was hazing always the first resort? Because it worked? Because it's better to fear than to love? Was it because boots are too immature to respect the orders of a Lance Corporal unless backed up by the threat of physical pain, or was it because senior Lance Corporals just didn't feel like taking the time to have a mature conversation with a junior Marine when it was just so easy to haze him? Did we mistake kindness for weakness?

Three months after having joined 3/1 my battalion commander told me and the group of other new Marines who I'd joined the battalion with that there was an error at HQMC, and that we were being reassigned with 3/5, at San Mateo. Their bad. Today, I am still with 3/5 preparing to go on my first deployment to Camp Baharia in Iraq. I have been a garrison Marine for over a year now, and by this time next year I will be a senior Lance Corporal...whatever that is. I have seen hazing in many different ways, and I don't want to do it when I get back from Iraq. I don't want to condone it if I see my fellow senior Marines to-be doing it when that time comes. But I can't help but wonder; does hazing work? Would I be the same Marine that I am today without it? Would I be better? Or worse? Is my motivation a product of hazing, or am I just genuinely motivated to be the best Marine I can be?

I want to treat the Marines to be in my charge with dignity and respect, and I swear I will do my best to lead them by example; to "inspire him to the highest standards possible." But will they take advantage of me? Will they drag *** because they know I won't condone hazing? Because I won't take them into my room and have them do squad pushups, or on death runs where they'll do fireman carries uphill and lowcralls with their face in the dirt while I stand and watch. Situation dictates, right? I will get my own chow, and I will roll my own sleeves. I don't want to degrade my junior Marines by having them do my *****work, even when I see SNCOs exercising that power. And, hard as it might be to do then as it is to say now, if it comes time for a 6 man working party, I want to be that 6th man. WITH my junior Marines, as opposed to just leaning back and calling, "Boots up!" I will stand my own duty, and hold myself to the same standard I hold my Marines to. Maybe that's a new concept, but it pisses me off when I see senior Lance Corporals running AROUND obstacles while their "boots" struggle to make it over every log and pole in record time. Lead by ****ing example.

And I'll let you know how it turns out.

What Company were you in 3/1? They back to living in squard bays now?

That's all old $hit stud. This has been going on for years and it will probably continue to go on long after you leave the Corps. It's been my experience that the "Senior LCpls" who do the "hazing" are the s*it birds who will be terminal LCpls. Usually the squared away sr Marines are more interested in teaching and training you in preperation for combat.
As far as dummy cording your gear that happens throughout the grunts for all ranks. I was a Sgt/Plt Cmdr and still dummy cording my gear. Believe me wait until you have to get on line at the range in the pitch dark and look for a pair of NVG's that some a$$hole lost because it wasn't dummy corded.
Firewatch,police calls, and picking up cigerette butts; we've all been there and done that. I'm with you though, I don't smoke but I had to pick up the butts too.
The best advice I can give you is to take all the good traits from the sr Marines in your company and and apply them when you are in that same position. Discipline is a very important part of being a grunt but your job will be to ensure that your Marines know what they need to know to survive in combat.

Semper Fi

SSgt H.

SSgt H. is right sounds like you were with a bunch of D-Bags. I always led from the front and all good leaders do as well. I hated the do as I say, not as I do leaders. I used training as a way of punishment such as doing the same battle drill over and over and over again after working hours. It sucked but they had the battle drills down pact. Don't worry you will probably outrank them soon. Hazing is okay as a disciplinary tool. However I'd be damned as a Sgt if one of my lcpls was making my junior Marines get them chow and some of th bs inspection while they looked like s.bags. Hope your new company in 3/5 is alot better. Just remember somehow it always works out in the end, no matter how crappy it is.

Had to put up with BS, but not the chow thing?
It does sound like you had some shaity salty Lcpls there. So what were the NCOS doing at this time? Sounds to me like you have the BTDT/FNG BS taking over and those SB'LCPL as are just playing DI power games.
I can't see it going on Corps wide, or I HOPE NOT, it maybe a few units, just play it cool until you get senior AS THE SHAITBIRDS GET OUT.

Thinking about the chow thing, how do you get chows out of the chow hall?
Are chow halls that lax now?
I'm sure if we had the abillity to take chow out and in multiple, some salty Marines would have done it back in my day also.

As for A,,holes and saltyLcpls, in civy life you'll run into these types also, so bare with it, good luck.

We had a few BTDT Marines as SNCOs, most didn't rub it into our noses, they simply said, 'Listen up, this is what happened in nam, you all pay attention and pass it on, you'll save lifes, maybe your own'. Then they'll give the lesson plan or go thru live training senario.
There are two kinds of the BTDT types, the ones that talk and put ya down and then there are the ones that help the young Marines train for the real shait.



Ray

This message has been edited. Last edited by: bigEMarDet77,

I want to treat the Marines to be in my charge with dignity and respect
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Its funny how little hazing I saw within the BN while in VN. And by little I really mean-----none.

And we were getting fresh boots right out of SOI. As green as can be.

But hazing was the last thing on our mind. I mean why would we think that they would perform better on a mission if they had been focked up and hazed back in the rear?

It was a war. And for us a very dangerous war. Getting them correctly packed as far as their ruck, making sure they had the right amount of water and ammo. An understanding of what to do if we were hit or they were seperated. Radio call signs and calling in air. Those were the type of things that were considered important.

Did it work? Less than 6 months after reporting in as green boots without a clue many were running their own patrols as TL's. Stokes and Neville both got a Silver Star for leading their Team in a "running" gun battle for a day or so with the NVA----and for bringing back alive all 5 or 6 guys.

They both had about 5 months in country----about 6 months out of SOI when they led that patrol.

We treated them like professionals. And they went on to act as professionals.


.

For anyone who may've misinterpreted, I didn't mean for this to be a 3/1 bashing, or a *****fest about the stuff I had to do as a junior Marine. I realize the new guys are going to get the short end of the stick sometimes. I just wish team leaders and other senior Marines would work WITH their junior Marines more often instead of defining such a hard line between the boot and the senior. We are teams and squads, dependant on one another. Not adversaries playing immature games of cat and mouse. Most of my senior Marines at 3/1 were respectable, good leaders. It's the few that kill it for the many. But darshbags exist everywhere, regardless of rank, mos, branch or military affiliation.

Lead by example.

DocSki,

That being said there are still some brutal rituals in Recon that are Haze intensive. I talked to a Marine who was in my team all through BRC and is now at 3rd Recon about what he went through for the first months there. I understand they had a suicide from a fresh 0321, after reporting to the unit. Now it was related to me that it was because of the hazing however I won't ride this event since I don't know about it personally.

Not to mention the Gold Wing ceremonies....

Ryderxs,

I agree with you, I feel like there has got to be a better way to do things. I didn't have it bad at all but because of that I tend to be skeptical of even the smallest practices. Some things are tolerable a few shots on the collar bone when you pick up lance isn't a big deal. While being held up while Sgts and Cpls repeatedly pound you until they decide they've had enough is idiotic.

Maybe because I'm a 23year old LCpl with a 25/26 year old ATL/TL I'm more skeptical. But I know for a fact when you mistreat your Marines they will only resent you. While if you help them and make them strong they'll respect you and their motivation for doing their best will be to not let you down because you never let them down.

my 2 cents

I was in 3/2 Betio Bastards. I don't know about the rest, but i can say while i was there everything changed. Boots were telling people that they felt funny with rounds in their hands just to get out of the deployment. Or that they couldn't handle and were going to kill thereselves. We had 6 people go UA in a week. Of course who got punished for that, we did.
I believe the higher ups F**Ked it up for them. They made them week. We had a 1st Sgt who came from MPs never deployed. Started telling the boots that if they got hazed which involved name calling to come tell him. We had so many people get page 11s and NJPs it was ridiculous. During promotions when you slap the rank on there collar...the 1st Sgt was outraged....said he had never seen that before. I don't know about you guys but since i was in from the very first promotion i got i got drilled on the collarbone. Even when you pick up NCO and you earn your blood stripes. Higher ups have made them pu$$ies.

Now as far as training goes. No you shouldn't make them do stupid **** that isn't going to help them. But if you come in drunk to work yeah i'm going to make you run for awhile until you puke. Then maybe you will think about it next time. If you want a hug and kiss every morning you joined the wrong fu**ing branch.
Some hazing does go a little far though. We had a senior LCPL hit a boot with a stick for answering knowledge wrong. Well he hit him a little to hard and a little to long. the boot was pissin blood by the end of the night. When i asked him why he didn't tell him to stop. He simply said I was learning CPL. That is some stupidity, but also some balls right there. I would be proud to have him fight next to me knowing he can take pain and not be a pu$$y. Some hazing is good, but not all. You just gotta know which is which.

That being said there are still some brutal rituals in Recon that are Haze intensive
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And my comments were not a reflection on todays training at all. Mine was a totally different time and situation. Just think. 3-6 weeks after finishing SOI( nothing but leave and travel time)you might find yourself on a 5 man Team going out chasing the NVA.

But it just struck me how little of this hazing or cold welcome or rough treatment you saw apon reporting in as a brand new PFC to Recon while in VN. It was all about getting them ready to go out.

I am sure it was different for those kids who were reporting into 2ndRecon at the same time. 2ndRecon being the one that never deployed to VN.


.

I never saw anyone hurt from it, more right of passage stuff than hazing as I saw it.

Hazing has degrees and Assault is the far degree of hazing. Have no prob with the pinning stripes stuff, no problem with extra duties for F'ups, no prob with most stuff, but the Chow thing and not relating at all to a Boot, not teaching them or leading them properly I do have a prob with.
It sounds more like a Clique thing than a salt verses a boot thing.
Cliques are bad, Gangbanger shait like. It can mess up a whole unit, kinda like the unit stuff showed in movie 'Platoon'.
We had Cliques in the Brig, they can turn on ya and I had a young Black Marine that tried that shait, we sent him off and the Platoon settled down.

Ray

quote:

Originally posted by Grunt4Life0311: That is some stupidity, but also some balls right there. I would be proud to have him fight next to me knowing he can take pain and not be a pu$$y. Some hazing is good, but not all. You just gotta know which is which.

And that's the problem most new Marines have; that they misinterpret hazing for a test of endurance. 'If I can handle this, I can handle combat.' But bootcamp is over! You don't have to earn your spot in the Marine Corps any more. There shouldn't be rights of passage, or initiations. This isn't a ****ing street gang. It's the Marine Corps. My unit, 3/5, was commended for executing their mission with "comsumate professionalism." How the **** would hazing be professional? Or even mature beyond the 10th grade. This is **** chearleaders and high school football teams get in trouble for. It shouldn't carry over into the military, and it shouldn't be tolerated by junior OR senior Marines on the premise that it's a tradition. I've asked my fellow junior Marines why they do it, and most times they just shrug their shoulders. "I dunno." But, for the most part, it seems like it's done out of fear, or otherwise as an attempt to gain some respect. If you ask a senior why he does it to his junior Marines, you'll probably hear "because my seniors did it to me."

**** that. Grow up.

If you had the balls to joined the hardest and most well-respected branch of the military our nation has to offer during a time of war, AND AS A ****ING INFANTRYMAN, then you should have enough self-respect by now to be able to stand up for yourself and say, Hey mother****er!, when someone's beating you with a stick. Regardless of rank! It's just common sense. I wouldn't stand by and watch as my buddy got beat with a stick. Why should I allow myself to suffer the same?

Dignity and respect. Get what you give.

Well said Ryder!

S/F Ray

ryder,
My time was the 80's and the same **** was going on then. I didn't like it so I pick up rank fast, then put an end to it in my Platoons. Lead from the front. Set the example and others will pick up on it. Good luck, and Semper Fi.

I got to thinking about the whole hazing thing while in R.I.P. Which in my opinion is just a bored bunch of Recon Marines thinking up fun and interesting ways to make people quit.
I remember in amphib week we had to run around with our rucks and boat as follows,

1man: "BEEP! BEEP! IM A JEEP"
2man: "Vroom! Vroom!"
3man: "(Mock shifting gears)"
4man: "Hey turn the heater on its cold out here"
5man: "BRRR:

Part of training? Or hazing? I mean running down the beach at 3 A.M. screaming that really just made me want to say **** this. And that was exactly what they wanted our reactions to be to make us quit.

On to BRC, our senior leadership explained to us what a "double standard" was. Basically, the rules that apply to us do not apply to them. They as NCO's did not have to do clean up. Did not have to serve firewatch even though most of the time I was there we had about 3-4 hours of sleep a night max. They never had weekend duty. And if they're day went bad which most of them were they decided it was our fault and hello all night field day.
For example, a certain Senior Lcpl. left his wall locker unsecured. The TACT instructors walked through the squad bay, noticed this, and took his laptop and kevlar. Now, we had to go link up with the submarine, sugar cookie ourselves and do numerous amounts of 8-counts at his expense. Not a single word was said to him by the Cpl.'s and SGT's. Then about 2 days later a junior Marine left his rack drawer unsecured with a cell phone in it. Same punishment from the TACT instructors. And all of us Junior Marines were up serving 20 minute rotation firewatch after a 5 hour field day and to peform various calistenics while our senior Marines paraded up and down the bay screaming at us. Double standards? You betcha. Has a Senior Lcpl. earned the right to get away with such things and us get mass punished for it?
Also a cetain SGT. and Cpl. never held security during patrolling week. Which basically means that they slept 7-8 hours a day while the boots planned and held security over 8 days. Getting about 1-1.5 hours of sleep. Ridiculous to me..

I think hazing and training walk a fine line. I personally resent most of my senior Marines that "led" us through BRC. Especially the two that never held security for their team that THEY were supposed to be leading.

Just my 2 cents..

This message has been edited. Last edited by: CromeYellow,

NCO's don't do firewatch or working parties because they are NCO's and that's one of the perks of being an NCO. When I was a platoon Sergeant my LCpls who held teamleader or squadleader billets did not due working parties or firewatch because they were doing the job as an NCO then I felt they deserved at least those privilages. That's just the way it is and the way it should be. On that note a Sr LCpl is still a LCpl period. They deserve no special privilages. Why should a LCpl get the same privilages as an NCO, teamleader, or squadleader when all they do is enough to get by? They want the respect and privilages but not the responsibility.
There's one thing you got to keep in mind; although NCO's and Lcpl's in leadership billets get those privilages there are things behind the scenes you are not privy to. While the Marines are up in the barracks watching porn and playing video games most NCO's are writing orders, making rosters, and completeing paperwork. They have more responsibility and usually work more hours. So those privilages come with a price. That's stateside no let's go to Iraq and combat. The small unit leader is responsible for all immediate decisions in a firefight as well as responsible for the welfare of his Marines. You can imagine the stress the small unit leaders face and the feeling of responsibility when one of his Marines is killed. So yes the privilages come with a price.

Training vs Hazing?
Salty Lcpl vs a Boot?
These separations in what is or isn't, get down to the fact that a Salty LCPL is a heartbeat from a Leadership position where that Lcpl will have to work to get his boots up to speed and instill his Boots to follow his orders in a split second.

To slam boots for no reason but because Lcpl's can or were in Corps or Combat/Iraq before the Boots is piss poor leadership traits and an example of not being a true Marine Leader.

As for RECON goes, recon SOP is to be most likely alone in the bad guys area, to accomplish the mission to the last Man/Recon Marine.
That is the key in the training diferences, Recon has to do it alone, a Grunt Unit needs to do it as a group.

From what I've noticed, the ones who do the bullshit hazing and constantly pull the "Sr. Lcpl" card are guys that will never pick up NCO. I'm sure you see it more in the Reserves but I bet it is still on the AD side. We call them "6 yr Lcpls". Can barely pass a PFT, or swim qual or whatever, completed 0 MCI's and are either a SAW gunner or assistant SAW gunner in the fireteam, but they are almost always the first ones to call you boot or take you off to the side and try and PT you or something like taht for **** they themselves couldn't do.

quote:

ryderxs

I must comment you on your writing skills, your apparent maturity, your poise, and your vision. Never forget the lessons you've learned You sound like an excellent Marine, destined to future greatness.

Hazing in counter productive for the most part, however it does have it's place, and appropriate time.

Let me just say one thing about "Salty Lcpl's": To have a Lcpl call anyone a "boot" is a contradiction of terms, kinda like "Military Intelligence" used to be. God help the "Salty Lcpl, that let me hear him call anyone a boot, in conjuction with an inappropriate hazing incident! I could see a fit of terminal Pvt. in their future if they didn't fix their mess, and it goes without saying that if they were in a leadership billet, they wouldn't be for long, not if I could do anyhting about it...