Agree with Cabo. Not arguing that sniper, SRT, air assault, etc aren't good schools; you'd be a fool NOT to go. But most of these schools are not exclusive to special operations. Infantry, security forces, marines, as well as special forces attend sniper schools.

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AF security forces do not receive special operations training. Schools like sniper and Ranger, airborne and the like are not special operations courses or training. Special operations training is Special Forces Qualification Course, BUDS, Pararescue, Combat Controller, CAG, etc....

I'd like to see what happens to you, when you tell a Ranger, he's not a special operations qualified soldier. I'll have to disagree with your unprofessional assessment and I seriously imagine 101st and 82nd troops would agree with me.

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Originally posted by Torch8306:
[QUOTE]AF security forces do not receive special operations training. Schools like sniper and Ranger, airborne and the like are not special operations courses or training. Special operations training is Special Forces Qualification Course, BUDS, Pararescue, Combat Controller, CAG, etc....

I'd like to see what happens to you, when you tell a Ranger, he's not a special operations qualified soldier. I'll have to disagree with your unprofessional assessment and I seriously imagine 101st and 82nd troops would agree with me.[/QUOT

He is not saying there not special operations capable, hes saying that those schools are open to others aside from just special operations.

RP/RT...

There are schools available here and there. But they are just schools. They dont make you an "Operator". Why are we so hung up on that?

(Clipped from Wikipedia...on Special Forces. I dont think we fit into the description...)

Some special forces operations, such as counter-terrorism actions, may be carried out domestically under certain circumstances. Special forces units are typically composed of relatively small groups of highly-trained personnel equipped with specialist equipment and armament, operating under principles of self-sufficiency, stealth, speed, and close teamwork, often transported by helicopter, small boats or submarines, parachuting from aircraft, or stealthy infiltration by land. Special forces are sometimes considered a force multiplier, as when they train indigenous forces to fight guerrilla warfare. [1] [1]

Training good...delusions bad...

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He is not saying there not special operations capable, hes saying that those schools are open to others aside from just special operations.

I beg to differ with you. He specifically states Sniper or Ranger school. I'm afraid you can't be any Tom, Dick, or Harry and get into either of these schools, and you're definitely not getting into Ranger school, without being selected from an elite group. That's the reason why Rangers are selected as training instructors over all other combat units.
I should know. I had Screaming Eagles and All Americans by my side the entire time I was in the Army, through basic, airborne and air assault orientation and MP school.

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He is not saying there not special operations capable, hes saying that those schools are open to others aside from just special operations.

I beg to differ with you. He specifically states Sniper or Ranger school. I'm afraid you can't be any Tom, Dick, or Harry and get into either of these schools, and you're definitely not getting into Ranger school, without being selected from an elite group.

Ranger school is not special operations training. AF secuirty forces get slots to Ranger school so you answered your own question, AF cops are not an elite unit.

Yes you are correct not just any joe can walk into a sniper or Ranger school slot. But it is not special operations training.

I never made any such statement of Air Force Cops being elite, so I don't know where that's coming from, but we'll have to agree to disagree, as far as Rangers being or not being a Special Force. They are! They receive training no one else in the Army receives. That's why they are chosen for Black Ops detail. You can't be from any other part of the Army and be part of the Delta Force, just like you can't be anyone, but Navy to go through BUDS, or a Marine and go through SOCOM.

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I never made any such statement of Air Force Cops being elite, so I don't know where that's coming from, but we'll have to agree to disagree, as far as Rangers being or not being a Special Force. They are! They receive training no one else in the Army receives. That's why they are chosen for Black Ops detail. You can't be from any other part of the Army and be part of the Delta Force, just like you can't be anyone, but Navy to go through BUDS, or a Marine and go through SOCOM.

Yes you did, when you said that you couldn't get into Ranger school unless you were selected from a elite group. As for the rest of your post it is obvious that you don't know very much about the U.S. special operations community. Try doing a little research and it may help you understand what is and what's not special operations.

have a great day.

V/r

CW

a Ranger is specialized light infantry, special operations capable.

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Originally posted by ZUESSFS:
a Ranger is specialized light infantry, special operations capable.

I dont think they are getting your point. They need to look up a listing of units assigned to JSOC (Joint Special Operations Command)and the clue light might turn on.

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Originally posted by caninedale:

quote:

Originally posted by ZUESSFS:
a Ranger is specialized light infantry, special operations capable.

I dont think they are getting your point. They need to look up a listing of units assigned to JSOC (Joint Special Operations Command)and the clue light might turn on.

I guess so, I remember when i was in highschool, I knew a retired army troop who was an Airborne, Ranger, Air Assault, cook. and had always been that. It doesnt matter what your job is or unit, if they want to send you they can. Harder in the air force, if we get a go from pre-Ranger, then we wait for a class date and hope we can go.

CABO said:

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Yes you did, when you said that you couldn't get into Ranger school unless you were selected from a elite group.

I like how you try to stretch a comment to fit your warped sense of logic.
You don't get into Ranger school, without being selected. You aren't selected, unless you meet specific requirements. If a Security Forces troop meets those requirements and receives one of the USAF slots for Ranger school, he/she has met an elite standard to make the cut.
Still doesn't make them a Ranger, because they aren't Army. Just like Zoombags getting awarded Jump slots from USAFA, doesn't make them Airborne, just because they can complete five static jumps.
I can disregard the rest of your snideness. It appears to be an M.O. of yours.

Once you get your Tab, it makes you Ranger qualified. Just like having jump wings makes you jump qualified, but to me Airborne, you must be in an Airborne unit. To be a Ranger, you have to be in a Batt.

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quote:
Yes you did, when you said that you couldn't get into Ranger school unless you were selected from a elite group.

I like how you try to stretch a comment to fit your warped sense of logic.
You don't get into Ranger school, without being selected. You aren't selected, unless you meet specific requirements. If a Security Forces troop meets those requirements and receives one of the USAF slots for Ranger school, he/she has met an elite standard to make the cut.
Still doesn't make them a Ranger, because they aren't Army. Just like Zoombags getting awarded Jump slots from USAFA, doesn't make them Airborne, just because they can complete five static jumps.
I can disregard the rest of your snideness. It appears to be an M.O. of yours.

Whatever dude. You still don't get it and I don't think you will. I was trying to be polite, but I guess you see what you want to see. You talked yourself into a corner I reminded you ofyour statement and then you attempt to discredit my reply. No big deal, I know what is and isn't special operations and such so I'm good with my comments. If you don't like what I have to say, don't read it or reply to it. It's that simple.

Have a good day.

V/r

CW

quote:

Originally posted by Torch8306:
I beg to differ with you. He specifically states Sniper or Ranger school. I'm afraid you can't be any Tom, Dick, or Harry and get into either of these schools, and you're definitely not getting into Ranger school, without being selected from an elite group.

Um, yes, you can be a Tom, Dick or Harry. All infantry and many other combat arms (artillery, armor, even MI) brand new lieutenants go to Ranger school. Soldiers from the Old Guard (Army's ceremonial unit) go to Pathfinder, Sniper, and yes, Ranger school. You DO NOT have to be an "elite" unit to go to said schools. Schools such as Special Forces Combat Divers Course and Military Freefall are courses that not just any soldier can go to, but rather members of special operations units such as Ranger Regiment, SF and perhaps a LRSD.

Did you know that up until about 1991 ROTC Cadets, yes, I said ROTC cadets, could and did attend/graduate Ranger School? I new a few as cadets and I even had a platoon leader who graduated from the Citadel who had his ranger tab BEFORE earning his butter bar. And of course, members of the Army National Guard, usually infantry units, send folks to Ranger School; there's even an ARNG Pre-Ranger course.

There is a saying in Ranger Regiment, "The tab is an award, the scroll is a way of life".

While rangers assigned to ranger regiment are classified as "infantry", as in 11B, the unit itself falls under JSOC and has a special operations tasking. The term "Ranger" and "Special Operations" are not synonymous. It has to do with the unit. If you're sportin' a tab but are a member of the 29th Infantry Division (Army National Guard), you're simply a solder with a Ranger Tab.

Just another dude's input and perspective based on experience and firsthand knowledge. Take it for what it's worth, which ain't much.

Look at it this way...

I have a Bachelors Degree in Exercise Science. Does that make me an Exercise Scientist? No, just means I spent enough time in school to get the degree. Although some day I will work in that field (After I retire from AD and do my Masters...) it isnt today. Now, I simply do a little part time personal training, and advise folks here and there on how to do gym and fitness related things.

Substitute Ranger tab/school for all the collegey words there...thats where I see this feild these days. We can use and need the info, but its not absolutely neccesary for the day to day running of the feild.

For whatever reason you all really love going down this rabbit hole.

Long story short, SF is not/are not Special Forces.

Having said that, there are lots (that's a relative term BTW) of SF personnel assigned to SF units doing various things. Are they level 7 ninja trained assassins (or whatever the phraseology is you all use)...I doubt it. Have some of them picked up more than a few tricks in their bag along the way...I would imagine so.

Also, in case you missed the memo, the 820th is now assigned to the 93rd Air Ground Operations Wing...I leave you to do the research on what the rest of the wing does.

So back to the topic...are there special ops cops...I guess that depends on what definition you go by.

Do we have a lots of guys with Ranger Tabs...yep. Have we had a few PJs in the career field...yep. Do we have at least one guy with HALO wings...yep. Is D-Cell still active...yep. Any former TACPs in the career field...yep.

Now do have people going to BUDS, CCT/PJ pipeline or anything else...nope.

So at the end of the day I guess you get to decide whether or not there are special ops cops or not…but I gotta tell you there sure are a lot (again a relative term) of guys out there doing those jobs today

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Now do have people going to BUDS

Not even a Marine can go to BUDS, unless they join the Navy.
************************************************************************

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Whatever dude. You still don't get it and I don't think you will. I was trying to be polite, but I guess you see what you want to see. You talked yourself into a corner I reminded you ofyour statement and then you attempt to discredit my reply. No big deal, I know what is and isn't special operations and such so I'm good with my comments. If you don't like what I have to say, don't read it or reply to it. It's that simple.

I think your problem, you've been a jerk too long or maybe you forgot how to act like an American. Take your Dude BS and shove it up your ARSE! Understanding Special Forces isn't difficult. I was trained by a few, who had the lighting bolt on their sleeve. You can think what you want. I could care less.

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I think your problem, you've been a jerk too long or maybe you forgot how to act like an American. Take your Dude BS and shove it up your ARSE! Understanding Special Forces isn't difficult. I was trained by a few, who had the lighting bolt on their sleeve. You can think what you want. I could care less.

What are you talking about? Now you're telling me I'm not acting like an American. That's mature of you to say. And I have been acting like a jerk too long, man you don't even know me. So have a nice day living in your safe little world and I'll go back to mine, down range taking care of business.

Two words—Special and Operations; Do you know your special operations?

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Special Operations—Operations conducted by specially trained, equipped, and organized DOD forces against strategic or tactical targets in pursuit of national objectives. Conducted during either hostilities or peace, they can support conventional operations or they may be prosecuted independently when conventional force is inappropriate or infeasible (Joint Publication 1-02).

Operation- A military action or the carry out of a strategic, tactical, service, training, or administrative military mission; The process of carrying on combat, including movement, supply, attack, defense, and maneuvers needed to gain the objectives of any battle or campaign (Joint Publication 1-02).

Strategic level - Activities at this level defines limits and assess risks for the use of military and other instruments of power, it includes making plans to achieve these objectives and identifying the capabilities needed to achieve those objectives.

Tactical Level-Activities on this level focus on the ordered arrangement and maneuver of combat elements in relation to each other and to the enemy to achieve combat objectives.

So this is some of the by the book definitions, but what exactly is special operation mission and who here can articulate it?

A special operation mission has nothing to do with being dependant on responding capability having HALO qualification, parachutist, qualification, Air assault training, etc. Special Operations is the dealing with a situation or event lacking definitional boundaries of what exactly is the scope and nature of the threat. Special Operations has many possible connotations, but the missions are often complex and high risk in being above the routine and peaceful competition among states but below engagement between conventional military forces. Examples would be raids, rescues, surgical attack, and special intelligence missions.

In the GWOT, terrorist forces engaged may not have a representative government or national economy directly sponsoring it, but may be informally allowed to exist in a region comprised of more than one nation-state. If engaged is it a conventional response or a special operations response? When you can articulate a reasoned response to this question then you may begin to understand asymmetrical warfare which was in years past was known by low intensity conflict, military operations other than war, and probably a few others no longer in every day use.

When talking military occupations and making claim of being a special operations capability, there is a set of indispensable common denominators of functional fitness, unit or team combat readiness, concepts of operations, and employment tactics. Regardless it is more than the force getting to its destination on the required day, hour, minute and second, it must be fully ready to take part in the operation and contribute meaningfully to its outcome.

Example of Security Forces making a combat jump into Northern Iraq as part of a support element is provided as evidence of something but how the combat jumps resulted in contributing meaningfully to an outcome has never been disclosed. To claim special operations is to disclose how the unit or team capability contributed meaningfully to a mission outcome or why the unit or team is essential to accomplishing military oblectives assigned to tactical units or task forces. BTW--a conventional joint operation mission is not a special operations mission.

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