Three armed felons tried to rob an El Paso,Texas Police Officer (he's in civilian clothes) in front of a bank. The plan was to grasp his back pack and get away on a stolen motorcycle. The well prepared Police Officer shot all of them, managing to kill 2 at the scene. The 3rd one was shot in both arms. Gun used: a 40 cal pistol.
Good shoot. Thats one (or two) for the good guys.
Great story, and great work by the officer, but something is "off" about the photos.
I googled the details because I wanted to post it here in my department (P.D.) for officer safety, but can't find an actual news link.
The photos seem like they are in a foreign country based on vehicle makes/models. Yes, I have been to and through El Paso several times.
Here is what caught my attention:
The off duty cop has a back pack in some photos but it is off in some. If this had happened in the US, the first uniforms would have secured the entire scene to protect it, pulled him aside and "secured" him for his own welfare, and then worked at keeping the curiosity seekers back. The off duty cop seems to be in control of the scene. El Paso, as a major metro department, would have handled this better.
In the first photo a guy in yellow shorts has cuffs. By him is a uniformed officer. There looks like another plain clothes cop in a thigh rig. Everything together makes me think South America. Maybe one of their drug task forces.
Photo two. The M/C on the right is a PM-DF. Look at the mark on the front fender, also. I think that might be the uniformed officer's bike, possible the Federal District Military Police of Brazil. Or Polícia Militar- Distrito Federale? Just a guess.
Photo 4 and 5. The sign in the backround is for Gravia, an industry in Brazil. Google the company name and you will recognize the logo on the sign.
Lastly, the badge hanging from the officer's neck doesn't match the badge for El Paso.
But notice that in every photo, the cop's finger is on the frame as he moves, not the trigger. For civilian law enforcement that shows excellent firearm discipline.
In researching this I have found references to death squads of off duty cops who hunt drug dealers in Brazil. That might explain why the uniformed officer seems to be more of a spectator.
Great post anyway. Lots of valuable lessons here.
Thanks for sharing this.
I agree with Sawyer on this. I immediately thought Central/South America. It would be nice if you could see the license plates.
The El Paso PD Motor Officers don't wear dark trousers, and, the shoulder patch is wrong. EPPD motors wear a French blue trouser, with a dark stripe. THe shoulder patch has a lot of orang in it, in a rising sun type graphic.
Im going to go out on a limb and say Brazil. Something about the people, street images, tell me Brazil. Not ruling out Mexico though. The weapon looks like a Beretta 96 series (assuming its a .40) or a clone of some sort.
I really doubt it could be in the USA. Although I have heard parts of Texas look indifferent from Mexico.
Naturally we don't know all of the circumstances. There could have been lots of factors we are unaware of. Were they armed? Was there an immediate threat to his life? Was there something in the bag worth killing over?
If you were at a park and 3 guys attacked you for unknown reasons, what would you do? METT-T, right?
I think it is reasonable to infer that a person who commits robbery, arson, or kidnapping has little impulse control, and is just an unlucky step away from becoming a murderer. To characterize the deaths of these hombres as a "penalty" is not accurate, but death and bullet holes in ones body are forseeable complications of robbery. That was just the arraignment.(having been delivered to a Magistrate in an expeditious manner) the penalty phase will come later.....
BTW...I've concluded that the incident took place in Brazil, not El Paso, TX.
Robbery is a very short law to define. It is simply, "The forcible stealing of property". Aggravating factors will increase the seriousness; like causing injury to someone or being armed in a certain way.
I'm sure no lib, but the typical pocketbook snatch is a larceny which would not ordinarily support shooting 2 subjects to death. Stonewall mentions there may be many factors which we are not aware of, but U.S. police officers are guided by case law involving shooting-unarmed fleeing felons.
Regardless, I sure hope no off-duty officer stands in the street displaying a weapon when the first arriving cop shows up.
Yup, right on.
My agency has given specific training on how we should react in an off-duty encounter when uniformed officers are arriving. It was quite in depth, and was conducted at the range, with our off duty guns and holsters. It included a lot of shooting, and displaying credentials techniques to incoming officers. Excellent training, and if your agencies are not doing something similar, they should.
How come every training film I've seen the Taser drops people like a ton of bricks? I Tazed a guy 5 times yesterday and he only got mad.
I've had 2 or 3 that powered through it. It's a great tool, but I make sure I'm prepared for a failure.
Are you using the M or X? I had more failures with the M.
I quit counting, but I've got around 25+ applications in the field. The biggest detriment are heavy coats. The blanket lined Carhartt canvas jackets really cause problems. I deployed on a guy wearing one, and I had to reload and nail him in his leg to get him to go down. When they work, they are great. When they don't be ready to get dirty.....
This was my first application and the results are quite bothersome. It's also receiving negative media attention. The defendant was experiencing a non-traumatic brain hemorrage. Even being an EMT, there was no way for me to have recognized this condition. He had a bleeding from the brain and was acting unpredictable and violent prone. I remember asking him if he was taking medication or under a doctor's care and he answered no. Then shortly later he had to be taken down.
I was feeling awful for having to treat him this way, especially right before Christmas. He's a veteran with a fine family. He has never been in legal trouble, but at the time no one could handle him. He had no difficulty fighting 6 cops and his strength was almost inhuman.
After the tasing failed we used physical force. I admit to using bad language. Fortunately our protocols require an ER visit after each Taser application. Hospital doctors said he would've survived perhaps 6 hours if he didn't have the immediate CAT scan. So maybe luck was in our favor. What do the Irish say sometimes; we fell and landed on our feet? I wonder if this will effect future decisions, but we have had cops get injured and killed by a reluctance to take actions when they were necessary.
hmmmm is that minimial force......LOL
Great call Sawyer!!
We all know what minimum use of force is; restraining, arm locks, finger twists, etc. The Taser has been classified as minimum force. Everyone of us were Tased during police academy training. If it was more than minimum they wouldn't use the device on police officers.
My scenario is making top news here. Ain't pretty.
|"Flying in the|
It probably won't have the effect I'd like to see. It's classified minimal force and still kills too many people. It's a Catch 22. I think it was rushed to service too soon. There are so many variables dealing with medical issues tasers can affect.
As far as the Brazilian plain clothes, they have a major problem, especially in the big cities. Shoot now, ask questions later, is probably their best avenue. They have gun battles on a daily basis with the underworld figures, who don't mind collateral damage, to make a point.
"VIA UNA COR UNUM"
My agency has had 2 deaths from Taser use. One victim was quite irrational and was breaking every window on a train. The other was resisting an arrest. Both autopsies noted ''an enlarged heart from years of cocaine intoxification''. The train subject was found to be on PCP and Angel Dust, however some critics want to blame anyone else they can. LE is an easy target for those who don't accept responsibility. Although the death is sad, other train commuters and conductors didn't complain none.
Although you may not be very happy, the taser use is very low on the use-of-force scale. Every cop om my job was tazed during academy training. None have died and the Taser is being issued to every employee.
As long as you were within your department policy, you are fine, bad press or not. Don't sweat it. As or his medical condition, it is unreasonable for ANYONE to expect a cop to be able to identify something like that. Regardless of a person's medical or psychological condition, if they are a threat to others, or the Officers, you really don't have a choice but to use whatever amount of force is necessary to control them. By Tasing him and getting him to the ER, you probably, in a round-about way saved his butt.
It's not the Taser that kills people, it's all of the other crap that hey have, typically , ingested. There are no documented cases (legitimate) that prove that Tasers have killed people. I can state, without a doubt, that due to my Taser, there are a few people still alive, because I had that option. Like the naked mental with the splitting maul. Without the Taser, my partner and I would have been forced to shoot him.
No tool is perfect. There is no magic device that will render an out of control person harmless. We can only do our best, and protect the safety of the public, our partners and selves.
|"Flying in the|
No Gene, I'm not disputing that. I understand the implications in a positive outcome, when reasoning is no longer an option. I also understand, in Kevin's case, where they are hopped up and the jolt creates an irregular heart rhythm or sudden cardiac death.
There has been a couple of case recently, where the tased had no medical condition or drugs in their body, and they still died. That's why I think it's a fallacy(IMO) to think it wasn't rushed to enter service with departments.
Yeah, I know everyone on the force gets tased, and though I'm not sure everyone suffered no ill effects, from what I've witnessed, of a very small sampling, it didn't adversely affect any LOE's. But, I think there's a juxtaposition to that test, because of the health of the officers being tased versus your average schmo on the street getting tased.
"VIA UNA COR UNUM"
I have calmed down now compared to when posting earlier. Funny, when you are in battle with a 6' 6'' giant departmental policy is the last thing on your mind. Our arm-chair generals had me on speaker phone this afternoon and they concluded I'm within guidelines. The TV, radio, and newspaper accounts vary as much as we do here.
My brother attended an internal affairs investigators course. The way the experts look at it is, show me a man who never gets a complaint and I'll show you a man who does nothing. In many cases it will be the same 3 or 4 guys who get sued several times a decade, for they are the only ones taking action when it is necessary. We have had police officers reluctant to take action for fear of lawsuits or disciplinary actions. We have had cops get hurt because they were afraid of using force. Well I don't get hurt for nobody.
Thanks for your vote of confidence Gene. I'll get a better idea of future events tomorrow.
Did you know that people frequently die, in police custody, in handcuffs, after a struggle, where no Taser, or even baton blows have been used? Just a "wrassle-down". These exceed any post-Taser deaths. Excited delirium, and other issues are usually present. However, these deaths don't receive the media attention of deaths after a Taser has been deployed. Sensationalism is key here, because it sells. I would much rather use my Taser on a subject htan go to blows with my baton. The Taser is less likely to cause damage than whacking them with a stick. And, if the subject is going to die, regardless of what tool is used, I'd rather have him die after a Taser deployment, than after a baton deployment. Can you see those headlines? "Man dies after Police beating". And, to top it off, there is usually a lot of bruising, and that looks even worse...
I guess the point I'm getting at is, force ain't pretty. The Taser allows us to reduce the danger to ourselves when confronting a violent subject. Take it away, and you will have more baton use, and shootings, and Officers injured. And, you'll have more suspect deaths and injuries.
It's good to chat with you again Ed, it's been awhile.
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