I will be going to BMT 10NOV and SF Tech School 19JAN and wanted to know what I would have to do to get into the Raven Program and become a AF Sniper. I've found discussions on this board but I've also found a lot of contradicting information so I don't know what to take to the bank. I appreciate the help!
The first question YOU have to answer is: Does your reserve unit have a Raven or countersniper mission?
If the answer is affirmative, then I suggest you ask them what the requirements are. I'm going to suspect there's a waiting list and kids just off of tech school will have to wait a bit, specially for the sniper stuff.
To get into the RAVEN program you'd first have to get assigned to an AMC base. If that doesn't happen chances a pretty darn good you'll never become a RAVEN.
As for Snipers (Readers Digest explanation)...the AF doesn't have them. We do have people who've been to Close Precision Engagement (CPE) training.
CPE training has been restructured such that few people will actually fire the M24 (Remmington 700). Most CPE qualified folks will fire the M4 with a scope on it.
DOnt know of to many Ravens with CPE. Also The AF has done away with CPEC at Robinson it is now an Advanced DM course still shoot the 24 but there is no field craft. Also they make use of the M4 with the ACOG. AFSPC(possibly global strike) still teaches CPEC at camp guernsey wy its more of a local thing for the TRF's. Also the RTC's are trying to push for CPEC at their respective bases. I know the 820th will get slots for army sniper from time to time as well as the 786th
Also M24s were redistributed to units that could actually meet the qualification requirements to hold the upper level CPEC qualification.
Biggest issue with M24 quals is few folks actually have the range to properly qualify with the weapon.
As for snipers, we might have folks who to the Army school but I would expect few of them are able to put the rounds down range or spend the time in the field to be called a sniper.
TRF guys get to spend lots of time with the M24 but even they don't get to put enough rounds down range to be called snipers.
At 786th we had a Sniper section...two guys, they even made Airman magazine after the Bashur jump. But as 157 said, they dont really spend enough time on it to merit the title. But yeah, time spent on it and sniper employment (Find me one AF ground commander who knows how, and has permission to properly employ a sniper team.) are not what they should/could be.
Yeah its more of a weapons qual than anything we have a range but really no time to shoot and for the 107 we have to go down to Wy. Most of our "practical" stuff came from SRT 2 the M/O course they teach the 24 too but most of the shooting is 300m or less with an M-4
I'm a just a joe down at a school house, we have a handful of dudes that have been thru the course. Everyday "they" have conversations about CPEC...sigh! The big thing that has changed about that school is you will end up going to ADM (Advanced Designated Marksman) if you're at a "normal" base (please don't take that out of context), those that go to the CPEC course are those personnel assigned to Ground Combat Schools, CRGs (Contingency Response Groups), and TRFs (Tactical Response Forces for you fellas up north).
A buddy just passed a couple few months ago and said the school was without a doubt "no joke". He said that he would not ever go thru that school again. A big reason they are going to "ADM" is because like someone else stated there are not enough M24s out there nor enough ranges or certed CATM folks. Hope this helps...
They just pulled our CPE deployment slot, and gear (I assume the rifle went bye bye with the pallet). They couldn't maintain proper certification here. We have 6 or 7 guys in the unit who have been to the school (in a squadron of 70). They were ****ed, but then again, our last two guys to deploy as CPE came back crying because they never got to do anything CPE related on their CPE specific deployment.
I don't think it's needed (at least not in my squadron), but I would never turn down free training, and would have happily taken one of our spots if they let K9 go. If nothing else, it's more knowledge, training, experience and a resume builder. It is not however a reason to join this career field, as it's not really a job persay. Just my opinion.
The big issue with the restructure of the CPE course/program has more to do with lack of proper ranges than anything else.
Very few AF bases have access to a full distance range that actually lets a person properly qualify with the M24. Hence the recall and redistribution of the weapons to units do have access.
ADM qualification, vice CPE, can, in theory, be attained/maintained at any base.
Oddly, as we work through the whole CPE/M24 issue we're going out and buying M107s...not a lot but some. Of course no one is gonna be taking 1 mile shots with it either.
The whole CPE issue is even being felt in the "school houses" now. Our instructors finally got 2 rifles but our CATM guys aren't certified on them. We have too many students to even attempt to find the best students to push through a ADM course too. I think that the CPE course and mission needs to be "re-examined" and redefined. To be even more effective would be for the USAF to realize that guys on the ground can actually fight too! I think that would help place these schools on the right path.
Like 157 said the majority of bases don't have the capability to support a sniper program. Plus being a sniper is not a additional duty, is there any "real" snipers in the AF. NO.
Is there a need for CPE, I don't think so. What the AF should do is focus on training people to be able to employ their primary duty weapon properly and effectively. And from what I have seen they need alot of work.
I spoke to a couple of our DDM's about this subject, their take on it is sounds like a waste of time, money and resources. The comment was made either all the way in , our your out in regards to a sniper program.
Most CPE deployments take place in a tower. Not really a "sniper" type deployment. I know they started having a m107 do overwatch where a M2 should be (doesnt make much sense) as for qual in the nuke world you have to shoot every 6 months. I think its pretty stupid to try and push ADM or CPE in the school house. Some of our new troops still dont know their general orders much less how to shoot the M4
Flood you are so correct. I see people down range that don't even know how to wear their gear the right way. Much less know how to employ their weapons, I mean if your M-4 is slung over your back and the barrel is 2 inches from the ground. Do you really think you are going to be able to use it. Heck they can't even secure their weapons, I found weaposn in a porta john more than a few times. I'm just saying.
And a 107 in a overwatch is stupid, but they what do I know about FP/AT stuff. LOL
In theory, if you assume the weapon is there for counter mobility reasons, then the M107 is a kinder/gentler weapon than an M2. Specifically, 1 shot at a time versus someone hosing down the neighborhood in full auto.
A M107 for CM or FDW is a dumb choice. One shot is not always going to stop the threat on in fact slow them down. When it comes to protecting your assets your AOA's and collateral damage asessments should have already been done. A Ma Duce is the the weapon of choice for some areas, and not for others. The majority of CM/FDW I have seen are M240B's and AT-4's used in concert with each other.
I would rather have a weapon system that can be controlled with a T&E, than some Airmen free gunning a M107. Just a thought.
sooo i didnt read the thread but heres my 2 cents...went through cpec a while ago as well as army sniper school recently....as far as being a waste of money we did offensive and counter sniper missions on my last deployment...sure wasnt a waste then...also went to the school house not to long back (within the last 6 months) and the slots at cpec are becoming alot more restrictive as far as who goes and who dosent (786th and 820th as well as other crgs getting the most slots) so if your in the right unit its easy to go as long as you are able to pass the course now as far as raven goes not such an easy answer on that we have ravens down here but we dont nor ever had (that i know of) had a raven mission so most of the raven guys i know think ravens and the school is pointless and gay yadda yadda yadda but if its what you want go for it....on another note heres a new one for you guys have 3 guys from the 820th that recently completed mff (better known as halo) and combat dive...cops with bubbles and free fall wings lol.....(have at it
I have heard of cops getting halo but never combat dive. Was it army or the AF couse( before someone says there is no AF dive course... http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123017455 ) It was also my understanding that you had to be AFSOC or army SOF to go I believe the reg says something like you have to be on orders or attatched to a unit that has a dive requirement. Not sure how or why a cop would qualify. Any more info about those guys?
