I served with pride from 1994-1998, as a LE airman. From what I have been reading here, SF is longer into serving and protecting fellow airman, but instead glorified security guards. What is the deal? For awhile I thought about getting back in as a reservist, after reading what you guys have posted here, there is no way I would go back in!!

I remember when I was on active duty and they changed the career field's name to Security Forces from Security Police. There was a lot of discontent. I knew I was nearing my discharge date so it wasn't a big issue with me, my goal was to get into civilian law enforcement.

After reading some of the posts on here, if I understand you guys correctly the AF is contracting out all of its LE functions to DOD police?? You got to be kidding me!!! In my opinion that is the biggest mistake the AF can make. DOD policing military folks on a military base is not good. I remember while being stationed at McGuire AFB, watching neighboring Ft. Dix army base transition over to DOD police from MPs. The DOD guys were a joke!!! They were unprofessional, sloppy and all of them had chips on their shoulders because they thought they were better than everybody else. I clearly remember one of them trying to come through one of our gates off-duty drunk, and he was supposedly a former Marine, before joining the DOD Police! Man, the AF is going to be in a world of trouble letting those guys protect you...

Can any current or former Security Police/Forces members please respond, and try to explain to this old SP what happened to my beloved career field??

To all of you guys and gals currently serving, I want to thank all of you for what you do! Keep up the good work and as my old Flight Sergeant would to say after every guard mount, "Hey!....Lets be safe out there."

DOD police (GS-083) are not contracted, they are employed as government employees by the Department of Defense (or respective service). DOD police have been around for more than 50 years. As a young Navy brat, I remember DOD police manning the gates and patroling the Navy bases we were stationed at.

There are also DOD Security Guards (GS-085), like DOD police, are government employees, not contractors. True, some bases have contracted guards. Even Kings Bay Sub Base has contracted guards.

Some feel this is a good thing because it allows AF SF to do their jobs abroad (think post 9/11). Bases like Lackland are still patroled by AFSF but have DOD Guards. Personally, I was impressed with their performance. Same with Kings Bay NSB, those guys not only look sharp, they're more thorough than the Navy MA's standing post at another local base here in FL.

DOD Police vary from base to base, branch to branch. I have seen some young hard charging DOD cops and I have seen some RODs (Retired on Duty) guys who would look the other way if a child was hit by a car. The DOD police at the local Navy base have a phenominal training program. In addition to their 350 hour academy, they go through a 4 phase, 12 week FTO program. Additionally, they attend nearly 300 hours of in-service training, not to mention schools (radar/laser, DUI, Fire Arms Instructor, boat operator, ATV, First Responder, Active Shooter, vehicles in combat, etc.) Before my current job as a Security Director I did a 2 year stint with DOD police so I could move to FL and be with my family. I was frustrated a lot of the time, but overall it was a good program.

I was in the Army assigned to a joint unit at the Pentagon that comprised of AFSF folks who were going through the transition of SP to SF. I didn't care back then, but now I understand what it was all about. Not saying I agree with it, but I do understand it.

I have only been in ANG SF for just over 2 years. Prior to this, I did 18 months as a Life Supporter in the ANG and prior to that, I was active duty and guard Infantry in the Army. From my point of view, I blame the lack of leadership training and empowerment of NCOs.

There has been debates about SF being the "infantry of the Air Force", which I don't agree with. But I have no problem calling us a "combat arms" career field. I have never seen such imaturity, discontent and lack of discipline among an NCO corps than I have in AFSF.

My experience, of course, is limited to being in the Guard and attending CATM school. But I spent more than 11 weeks with 60 fellow NCOs from all walks of the SF field. Very few impressed me as leaders or subject matter experts. I was a sponge trying to gather information about our career field, and it was like pulling teeth to learn from those who had BTDT.

Computer Based Training (CBTs), a wanna-be PT program, flexible standards to get quantity not quality, and a society so sensitive to everyone's feelings that we dare not insult, stress or challenge anyone.

Well, that's my point of view. But I'm not giving up. Perhaps I'm foolish, but I've this gut feeling that something good will come one day.

Stonewall, I see your point about DOD police varying from base to base and branch to branch. Maybe this dude at Ft. Dix was an isolated incident. But, I vividly remember most of the DOD guys being very arrogant towards us SP members or military folks in general. They thought since they were not military, they got to play by different rules than everybody else. Funny thing is, I became friends with a lot of the local New Jersey state troopers while working the gates on McGuire, they would stop in from time to time and chat with us. They hated the DOD guys because the DOD cops would always stray outside their jurisdiction and try to initiate traffic stops off post. That said, maybe the DOD Police has cleaned up their act since then and if all that training you citied is true, then I agree they may have become a lot more professional agency. But, I still don’t think the AF should be turning over its LE functions to the DOD.

As far as the NCO corps goes. They were top notch back in the 90’s, I had some of the best NCOs in the Air Force as far as I was concerned back when I was in. They were old school true blue cops! A lot of the leadership qualities I observed in them I still use today. Now that was back in 1994-1998, so I can not speak as to how the NCOs are now, but if what you are saying is true then the AFSF is truly in a sad state of affairs!!! NCOs are the backbone of the military, they are the mentors of our young men and woman serving today and should conduct themselves accordingly. Maybe that’s the problem right there!!!! NCOs aren’t doing their jobs and taking care of the troops. Leadership principal #1: “TAKE CARE OF YOUR PEOPLE”.

Now here is my two cents about why I think the AFSF in going downhill:
Back when I was in, I noted that the active duty SF officer corps left much to be desired. I got the impression that they were mostly wannabe pilots who didn’t make the grade and had to do something in order to keep their commissions and SF was one of the dumping grounds. Most of them had no clue what police work was all about, all they cared about was kissing the base commander’s butt! I remember one day being on patrol and setting up some stationary radar enforcement near one of the gates. At the time we had a Captain as our squadron commander, he was a pilot who for some reason had too serve a stint in a non-pilot job (I guess for career progression experience) , I have yet to figure that one out…..But anyhow, I was parked facing traffic in the credit union parking lot. He apparently entered the base that morning and saw me sitting there and immediately called the flight sergeant and ordered him to have me stop running radar, because in his opinion was being “sneaky” and he did not want his troops setting up speed traps. Give me break!! If you have ever been on an Air Force base the speed limit on the entire base is usually no more than 25 miles hour. What kind of trap can anyone set up under those limits?? Point is, the guy was a joke and had no business being in a law enforcement capacity. In my opinion all SF officers should have to work the road as part of their indoctrination into the career field. The military is the only organization that I know of where a guy or gal can instantly become a command staff member or Chief of Police services and have never worked a day in a patrol car, made an arrest or even written a ticket, but yet they command those who do those things for a living. At least in civilian LE, you know your bosses have walked the walk. They have all BTDT. Nobody applies and is instantly the Police Chief with no experience what so ever.

Well thats my two cents boys and girls. Stonewall, you obviously have a good amount of time invested in your military service so getting out at this point wouldn’t help you. I only hope your wish comes true and things start changing for the better. You sound squared away and I sincerely hope if your are an NCO or getting ready to become one you “TAKE CARE OF YOUR PEOPLE”, it has to start with someone somewhere.

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Originally posted by statebear:You sound squared away and I sincerely hope if your are an NCO or getting ready to become one you “TAKE CARE OF YOUR PEOPLE”, it has to start with someone somewhere.

Was an E-6 in the Army (guard), had to lose a "stripe" when I switched over to ANG. About to pick up E-6 again any day week month now.

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Good deal! Use them stripes wisely and be part of the solution and not part of the problem.

Well, I have to pull a 1900 to 0300 shift and try to keep my State safe for least the next 8 hours anway. I'll check in tommorrow.

As always....be safe out there airman!

Well this is from my opinion being SF for over 8 years and a CATM instructor for 5. As far as SF goes there are several factors that have killed this career field. Probably the first and most important thing is leadership. Not specifically NCO's.

Mostly squadron, when you have leadership that could care less about there people and would rather be buddy buddy with everyone on base instead of sticking up for their people that is an issue. Also hammering people without even hearing the other side of the story.

This has a big impact on SF, we are no longer looked at as cops, who should be respected, but more of a nuisance. If I give a ticket to someone it shouldn't matter who it is or if they are buddy buddy with so and so. But sadly this is not the case anymore.

Another thing that does deals with NCO's is with SSgt being easy to make. Alot of people were not ready to be NCO's. Some still have the Airman mentality and wanna be friends with everyone. I know when I first come in if a SrA told you to do something you did it no questions asked. That doesn't happen anymore, a SrA tells an A1C to do something its usually "why?" or "your just a SrA." The military part of SF has died alot.

And the #1 reason why I feel SF has gone down the crapper...the low score needed to get in. It is no longer an elite career field to get into, but a place of people who couldn't make it in another job. SF gets the bottom of the barrel b/c it always needs people no matter what.

Now don't get me wrong with this post, there are still some damn good NCO's and Airman in this field but those are just somethings I see.

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Originally posted by skruball253:Now don't get me wrong with this post, there are still some damn good NCO's and Airman in this field but those are just somethings I see.

+1 There are some very good airmen and NCOs in my very own squadron. Unfortunately a single bad NCO weighs more than a good one.

quote:

Originally posted by skruball253:
Mostly squadron, when you have leadership that could care less about there people and would rather be buddy buddy with everyone on base instead of sticking up for their people that is an issue. Also hammering people without even hearing the other side of the story.

Another thing that does deals with NCO's is with SSgt being easy to make. Alot of people were not ready to be NCO's. That doesn't happen anymore, a SrA tells an A1C to do something its usually "why?" or "your just a SrA." The military part of SF has died alot.

Now don't get me wrong with this post, there are still some damn good NCO's and Airman in this field but those are just somethings I see.

Lots of interesting things here…I’ll just comment on a few.

Don’t get the part about leadership. Having been a leader and a follower I can honestly say I’ve never met a leader who didn’t care about their people. Same for sticking up…now I guess it depends on how you define sticking up. Having been the recipient of a few beatings over things my troops have done for me I can tell you that at some point in time the first law of physics has to take over…i.e., **** rolls down hill.

Agree we probably make folks E5s to quickly. But on the other hand we used to confer NCO status at the E4 level…and some services still do. Not being ready to be an NCO and taking “why” from an Airman is a personal problem…not an institutional one. You may have to fix it one troop at a time but it can be fixed.

“Still some good” implies few as opposed to many. Stonewall noted that a few skew the perception of the many which I would think is a better phrasing of the situation. I wouldn’t color my opinion of an entire organization based on my view of a small segment of that organization.

What I’ve found about life is that it’s pretty much a bell curve distribution…10% are outstanding, 10% are total crap and 80% are somewhere in between. Now the kicker is of the remaining 80% some will naturally trend upwards and some will trend downwards…the key is who is winning the battle for their hearts and minds? The lower 10% or the upper 10%?

I've chimed in on this subject before so, before I get too preachy, allow me to interject an old Marine Corps joke:

On November 10, 1775, the 2nd Continental Congress established the United States Marine Corps. The Continental Navy then found the biggest, ugliest, meanest Master-at-Arms in the service and made him the first Gunnery Sergeant in the Corps.

Later that evening, the first Marine recruite staggered out of Tun Tavern in Philly and tried to make his way up the gangplank to the USS Constitution. Where the first Gunny was waiting for him to rip him a new one. After a good fifteen minute tirade, a red-faced Gunny was done with the recruit and curtly ordered him to stand at attention by the forecastle.

Shortly thereafter, the second marine recruit came stumbling onboard to - once again - meet the Gunny and get his fifteen minute ass-chewing.

As the second marine joined the first in the forecastle, he leaned over and whispered "Boy, that Gunny sure is mean!."

The first marine looked haughtilly at the second and sneered "You think that was tough!? Why, in the Old Corps...."

The Point?

The fact is that - in our eyes - today's airmen (NCOs, Officers, beer, whiskey, women) always suck and the ones of yesterday were always better.

But the truth is that the young kids in our (current/former) career field are doing a pretty bang up job under some very demanding situations.

A question for those of us from the 80s and 90s. When did we have to deal with the consistent level of deployments and/or 12 hour shifts SF airmen (and NCOs and officers and spouses) have to put up with? And for almost a decade now.

I spent the last five years of my career looking at the Security Forces squadron from the outside in. And those kids looked damned fine.

Are there idiots that make the whole career field look bad? Hell yes! But we've always had those.

I remember the 80s. Where airmmen were airmmen and entire flights disappeared after a drug bust. Where a Mobile Fire Team was once caught in a sorority house and another was caught poaching deer on duty and with AF M-16s.

I remember the haughty 90s. I remember Quality Air Force. I remember Griffis, where a couple of those "top-notch" 90s NCOs went to jail.

I remember SAC going away. I remember AFIs replacing AFRs. But I also remember that Griffis hapenned under the SAC banner with AFR 207-1, SAC Supplement 1 still in effect.

I remember the Grand Forks airman who made "USA Today" for his exploits in Iraq (much to the surprise of his Commander...). I remember the other Grand Forks airman who (unknowingly) hired an OSI agent to wack his wife.


And yes, today airmen and putting on Staff too early. But that isn't their fault. Retention is what it is. The AF can either pay them and give them the perks of the job they are actually doing or demand that they do the same, exact job without the pay and the perks. At which point the retention rate would go down even further.


People forget, but the requirements for entry into this career field have never been that high. In my eyes, one of the great things about being an Air Force cop was how much we got accomplished with so little.


This career field has always had a problem with officers. It's not just (or even primarily) that many of them did not have SF as their first choice, it's that a SF officer doesn't really have a defined function until he or she hits Ops Officer. Before that they're mainly the Flight Sergeant's pain in the ass. But you need to do something with them while they work up the food chain to senior captain.

And statebear, that captain you mentioned was most likely a "banked" pilot. We had one in Alconbury in the early 90s. Basically, the AF took in too many pilots and didn't know what to do with them so they "banked" them in other career fields until they could get them into a cockpit. So most of them were more interested in when they were leaving the unit than in actually doing anything productive. Fortunately, mine knew enough to stay out my way and let me run the shift. So we got along just fine.

Another example where the 90s weren't always "better."

Anyway, that's my rant.

quote:

And the #1 reason why I feel SF has gone down the crapper...the low score needed to get in. It is no longer an elite career field to get into, but a place of people who couldn't make it in another job. SF gets the bottom of the barrel b/c it always needs people no matter what.

No matter how elite or professional we tried to keep our members' appearance and behavior, we were never looked at any other way than a bunch of Cops, always out to ruin someone's day. Didn't require a high score in the 60s or 70s either. We just did a great job of weeding out the chaff and kept Team/Flight members, who could shoot, act on their own, act as part of the team, and knew their 811XX SKTs. In a lot of cases that meant leaving the military for failure to adapt. If you were weeded out of Security, there was little chance of crosstraining.
I'm sure other Commands thought the same way, but SAC Security was known for being a top notch group of guys, even if you only need a 40 to get in. You don't have to be the smartest test taker to prove your mettle. Our guys could stand up to the scrutiny of SAC ORI testers, and that's all that mattered and no one I knew was afraid to pull their weapon. Most of these guys had been in Thailand and Vietnam, before coming back to SAC.
The only difference I see between then and now, is the mission. SF is taking on more of an offensive roll, where as, when we developed anti-terrorist teams, we still were devoted to a defensive strategy, even in Operation Yellow Hand.

IMHO:

1. The love affair with special programs and units (i.e. 820th, raven, dagre, etc.).

2. Loss of mission focus and the merger of LE and security.

3. Lower standards and the cookie cutter processing of new troops through tech school.

4. The AF as a whole has gotten to PC and weak in enforcement of conduct and standards. Which then causes a ripple effect for the cop careerfield.

5. SNCO's that are more concerned about their next stripe, scare badges and resume building. Than they are for their troops or unit.

Its obvious the career field needs some leadership changes. We can rant and rave about the NCO corps, but in my opinion the change has to come from the top, i.e. officers. Until we start getting some officers who actually want to be in the career field and want to be cops, things are not going to change for the better.

Too many failed pilots playing cop, only concerning themselves with how to get their next promotion or cockpit slot isn’t going to change anything. The AF needs to vigorously start recruiting men and women to be officers in SF. Instead of just pilots and teling them, oh…by the way if you can’t cut it as a pilot we have this thing called Security Forces.

Again , that’s my two cents, Now I’ll try and comment on something posted here…

The leadership part and taking care of your people means, sticking up for them whether they are right or wrong. That’s right, RIGHT OR WRONG! You don’t throw your people under the bus to save your own butt!!! I don’t believe in the acronym that **** rolls down hill, but instead with the acronym, “the **** stops here!” Whether your people are right or wrong you don’t hang them out to dry. During my career as young gung-ho SP, I made a few mistakes and my NCOs always stood by me and helped me learn from my mistakes. They didn’t hammer me and say well son, **** rolls downhill. If that acronym is one of your leadership principles then you have no business leading anyone or anything!!!

I have a laminated quote I carry with me in my patrol car everyday above my visor, it reads as follows:

“Cowards die many times before their deaths; the valiant only taste of death but once”
-William Shakespeare

I chose to be one of the valiant ones, and conduct my self accordantly not only when I’m at work, but in life in general. Stripes, bars, oak leafs, eagles or stars on your shirt don’t make you leader, its what you have inside of you that makes you a leader! That means making tough decisions and having the courage to withstand the repercussions, instead of basing your decisions on what you think your boss would like you to do.


After reading some of the posts on here, it’s a shame what has happened to SF. Until the AF starts developing SF leaders, nothing will get better.

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Too many failed pilots playing cop, only concerning themselves with how to get their next promotion or cockpit slot isn’t going to change anything. The AF needs to vigorously start recruiting men and women to be officers in SF. Instead of just pilots and teling them, oh…by the way if you can’t cut it as a pilot we have this thing called Security Forces.

Caustic comment here. So, you're claiming a pilot candidate, who washes out of pilot training and is offered retention, by going to Security Forces School(though there has to be more to it than your statement) and joining Security Forces, is somehow less professional, than an individual, who gets a commission as a nonrated officer, goes to Security Forces School, and becomes a Security Forces officer?
I just can't help feeling you've stretched your analogy a little bit beyond the norm. According to what you're saying, the "fall" of Force Protection quality lies squarely on the junior grade officers. I find that hard to believe they're the root of all problems, when I read Active Duty and Retired Security personnel label the problem from top to bottom, not just Lieutenants.

No, I am simply saying that a washed out pilot will not have his heart into it, if his sole dream in life was to fly in the first place. Until they start recruiting officers that dream of being law enforcers instead of pilots, you will never have a truly dedicated career field leader. Now with that said, I always dreamed of becoming a police officer since I was a child, so I don’t know what its like to washout of your dream job. Maybe, some officers can transition over into something else after losing out on their career goal. I just think SF is not the career field the AF should be dumping the ones that can‘t. I didn’t really have a plan b when I was aspiring to get into law enforcement for me it was all or nothing. I was fortunate enough to obtain that goal, but I if I hadn’t I don’t think I would have had the same enthusiasm in another job that I have in my current job and therein lies the key word “enthusiasm”. While I was on active duty, it was obviously lacking in SF officers. Now there may have been enthusiastic and dedicated officers in other squadrons besides my own, but the ones I saw come and go in my squadron were just punching their tickets and bidding there time till their next promotion or assignment. Its simple, start recruiting officers that want to be law enforcers, they are out there.

The problem is that being a Security Forces shift commander has very, very little to do with law enforcement.

I would posit that the "enthusiasm level" of SF officers today is probably higher than it was in the 90s. After all, that was the decade of banked officers, of the career field merger, of the death of SAC, and of a substantial numbers drawdown. It was also, before Khobar Towers, a decade where security was a declining priority Air Force wide.

I am pretty confident that we now have a generation of SF officers with a solid security/light infantry mindset (sorry Cabo..) that should have them more fired up than at almost any time in the history of our career field.


And I hate to break it to you, but every year there is less and less law enforcement in the Security Forces career field. And that is not going to change in the forseeable future.

quote:

Originally posted by statebear:
Its simple, start recruiting officers that want to be law enforcers, they are out there.

quote:

Originally posted by statebear:


Too many failed pilots playing cop, only concerning themselves with how to get their next promotion or cockpit slot isn’t going to change anything. The AF needs to vigorously start recruiting men and women to be officers in SF. Instead of just pilots and teling them, oh…by the way if you can’t cut it as a pilot we have this thing called Security Forces.

Where did this idea come from? It has virtually no basis in reality. There are a few (note use of word few) Lts who end up in SF after they wash out of UPT, but in the present day world, SF officers are career SF officers.

In the mid 90s the AF flirted with what was known as the "Banked Pilot" program. UPT graduates did not go directly to flying assignments rather they went to other AFSC jobs (that happened to include SF) for one assignment. When that assignment was over they went back to flying. However, this was a very very small number of officers.

In the 80s we had the "Rated Sup" program wherein rated officers were given the opportunity to command outside of flying squadrons...to include SP units. Again, relative to the very large number of SP units at the time, this was a very small number of officers. (Keep in mind the career field at this time had over 50K personnel and more than 15 SP Groups) Several of these officers stayed in the career field well into the 90s and rose to the rank of Colonel. One of these officers was an Air Force Cross winner (Col Wayne Purser). Keeping in mind that most of these officers flew in Vietnam many of them had similarly, but perhaps not as highly distinguished, battle records.

But enough of a history lesson. The idea that the AF doesn't recruit men and women to be SF officers specifically vice getting them after they fail to become something else, is ill informed. Ask a recruiter...SF is and remains one of the most popular career fields in the AF...they will tell you the job sells itself.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 15713302,

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Ask a recruiter...SF is and remains one of the most popular career fields in the AF...they will tell you the job sells itself.

Getting new Airmen isn't nearly as hard as keeping them these days. Our FTA retention rates have been horrible for a few years. We are currently at about 33%.

OK…Its obvious my experience while I was on active duty with SF officers is different then others here. I’m tired of beating a dead horse……lets just agree that we disagree.

So, the question still stands, what has happened to Security Forces? If your someone who thinks nothing is wrong with SF, then do me a favor and read this thread I found on here:

Why re-enlist?

quote:

I have a laminated quote I carry with me in my patrol car everyday above my visor, it reads as follows:

“Cowards die many times before their deaths; the valiant only taste of death but once”
-William Shakespeare

I got one for you. "He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day." You ain't gonna do anyone any good if you're dead. Know when to back away.

As far as leadership problems, I really don't see the impact of SF Officers on the career field. They have nowhere near the influence that SNCOs and NCOs do. The NCO Corps is what makes and breaks the unit/field. If you have ****ty NCOs, you are going to have problems. If you have ****ty Officers, who cares, you never see them anyway. And, they don't stick around long.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the majority of enlistees think they are joining to be an "MP", and quickly find out we are nothing but a half-arsed light infantry (in our training, equipping AND posturing).

If I wasn't halfway retired, I'd do what all the FTA's are doing and bounce the heck out too.