Dear Member,

The 30-30 round was developed for the Krag-Jergerson which was orginally blackpowder and required a heavier round to carry. The 30-06 was developed when more powerful smokeless powder became available. The 30-30 remained popular as a big animal stopper. It is a long range 00 shotgun round.

Last, the 30-30 is unsuitable for semi-auto and automatic weapons. Its case design has extraction problems like the French 8mm Lebel

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Originally posted by rob6852:
Hell if I thought the soldiers would carry it, I'd suggest a weapon designed around
the .45-70 Gov't. round. Butt loads of knockdown power but the recoil is a mother. I bet
the ragheads wouldn't want to face that round!
But being practical what about the .30-30 round?
It's not as heavy as the .30-06 and is ideal out to 100-150 yds. I bet the troops would
love a rifle built around this cartridge. Has good knock-down power too.
But for know i was looking at the 6.8mm Spc. Remington that Barrett is developing and
I must say it looks like a winner.
I believe in shoot to kill, to hell with shoot to wound.
Take care all.

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Dear Member,

I guess that would be the Springfield 03 (The US
Government had to pay Mauser in Germany a royality payment to produce the Springfield 03).

But is it bad to purchase a foreign weapon? The BAR was a good weapon but the BREN was far superior and it was produced in Canada.

Last, I goofed. The last foreign weapon adopted by the US Army and Marines is the Belgium FN MAG belt fed 7.62mm machine gun which replaced the M60 (first bought in 1976 for the Abrams) and the Belgium FN Minimi which was adopted by the US Army and Marines as the SAW.

Best Jack E. Hammond

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Originally posted by beaslekd:
When was the last foreign main battle rifle purchased by the US? 'nuf said on the M8's chances!

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As I understand it, this would be built by HK USA and not overseas.

The only thing is that I hope it has iron sights in case the red-dot thingie fails and that I would have prefered a heavier calibur.

Cheers

DCH

you've confused the .30-30 with the .30-40 Krag. The .30-30 was developed by Winchester for the Model 94 lever action Carbine. The .30-40 Krag was developed for the M1892 Krag-Jorgensen.

If we wanted to go with a .30-30 class cartridge all we'd need to do is adopt the Russian 7.62x39 which has somewhat similar power.

Lots of pros and cons here.

Let's keep it simple: Buy American products. The weapons for our soldiers (to include all branches) must be made by the U. S. The Germans aren't on our side right now, and what would happen in the future when this reoccured after we've fully equipped our troops with their "weapons." Hell, why not just buy the French products, too, while we're at it.

We have the know-hows and the technology to build very fine weapons. Let's keep the money inside our boundaries and keep our nation strong.

Regards,

Tony V.
U. S. Army Longbow Apache Pilot

Hey, how about taking another look at the AR-18, which the HK G36/XM8 is based on? Maybe tweak it a bit. Add rails for the fancy add-ons. Change the caliber to 6.8mm SPC or 6.5mm Grendel. Most of the work's been done. Do a pre-production run of a few thousand and send them to Iraq and Afghanistan for field testing.

Hello,dear friends.
According my life experiences.
I still like M4 (Armor Piercing,M993,M995) + sniper scope.
But somebody love 5.56 NATO or 5.56 Ball.
That's ok,I love that too.
But my favorite choice is AP.

Or individual night sight or thermal image sight or electro optical.
But I tried to looking for multi-modes sniper scope using Lithium baterries.(coin-shaped like we always use in watch.)

(I love Red dot but I don't like Ghost ring)

With M203 (HE-dual proposed)+ sound suppressor + infared optical pinpoint & tactical flash light(accesories).

Why I like Armor Piercing because with thermal image,I can whack anyone in bamboo or any facilities made by wood.
(But not log cabin offcourse).
And I know about the bullets with highly projection power in not appropriate for armed CQB.
As well as,the gun barrel of M4 is quite long if use in building or armed CQB too.

But M4 have various type of bullets,like crownd controlled (I alway bring a few of rubber shells with me ,accroding my life experiences,if somebody get shot in crownd controlled sistuation (violent protestors in the street sistuation),
And somebody try to blame Peace Keeping Force,I can deny,I didn't do that because I use rubber shells.)
Or if violent protestors try to attack me,actualy,first choice,I alway run away but if emergency and if somebody think about I don't dare to whack somebody who trying to attack me.
It's very very big mistake.
But I alway aim low at both side of the legs to buy sometime,and I can run.

But it really really damned hurt,
Trust me even it's non-lethal.
Ot stun gun,with a fire fighter truck.
If nescesary.
Electric non-lethal booby traps if they try to whack me.
But according my life expereices,that's very very lucky about I never have to run away from violent protestors but I alway be prepare,that's it.

And look like terrorist's favorite choice is AK-47 (7.62 mm.)
It can fire over 1 kilometer,I know.
But most accuracy range not more than 400 meters,(because of gravity of earth + resistance of air while the bullet move to target.)

But 5.56 most accuracy is 600 - 800 because it lighter weight than 7.62.
That mean it have more precision than 7.62 but about the muscle velocity.

So I alway bring at least 2 sidearms with me too.
( And because my finger quite short so look like M9 not quite fit my hand.)

So my favorite choice is Beretta M8000F with sound suppressor + infared pin point sight + tactical flash light in drop leg pouch.
With 9 mm. Para JHP x 15 rounds.
(I bring it for 10 clips)

(Actually,I am rarely use tactical flash light but I love infared pin point for the precision.)
It handly and easy to use,isn't it???

But HK USP tactical .45 ACP or (SOCOM) or may be 9 mm. Beretta M9.M93R or Glock or Sig Sauer (226)is good choice too but about me, .45 ACP, too big in my hand.
So I like something that fit my hand.but somebody hand is quite big ,so they love .45 because power to stop the opponent.
That's ok.

But I interesting about accuracy + precision while using joint operation (combine land,air,sea).
I mean I like to fight in appropriate range,
(my favorite is 700 meters plus or minus 100 meters from the enemies' troops.)

Because that range can use full spectrum of ground force joint with air without friendly fire by our air strike.
And because terrorist's alway use 7.62 mm.too.
And some models of mortar minimum range is 900 meters.
So that's why I like to fight in this range 700 meters plus or minus 100 meters.
Or may be 650 meters but never come closer than 600.
Because in emergency,I can retreat,while air strike can stall enemies for buy sometime for me,to escape and bring more soldiers to wipe all of enemies out later.
Before enemies can get me.

And about sound suppressor,that's very very handy too,
About that effort while infiltration the areas or sniper.

And offcourse,that help me can whack more than 1 enemy before another enemies get cover because shot fire or the noise
Or in worse case,if they can detect me,may be they will aim all of their weapons or everything against me before I can whack them all.

So in my opinions,sound suppressor is very very useful while infiltration.
But if in protection or security mission or secure parameter.
I mean in another hand,if we are preventing enemies' infiltration.,
Shot fire or noise, can make all of our soldiers pay attention and aim all of our weapons against ememies.

As well as the light,but we can make easy improvised light suppressor by use something wrap around the sound suppressor.

By the way,actually, M4 is my favorite choice of secondary weapon.
My farorite DREAM CHOICE of primary weapon is not any rifle ......
BUT actually,it is "laser guided bomb".
Like "GBU series".

I mean infared or laser guidanced (man-in-loop).
That's my favorite dream choice of primary weapon.

(But look like it's too sadistic,isn't it???.)

What happens when the future soldier is out in the field, wearing this new gear and encounters EMP? The way these countries are developing nuclear weapons, it would appear we could be in another cold war or even worse nuclear war with these countries. Great stuff on the other hand of the issue.

6.8mm is not for the XM8, it is for the M468. And we already ordered 1.7million rounds of 5.56mm bullets and so far I havent heard any complaints about them from the soldiers. Changing the ammunition would kinda throw us off and our M249s wouldnt have the chance to pick up ammo from the M16s/M4s.

In Black Hawk Down it's mentioned several times that our troops had to shoot the Somalis over & over & over again before they'd even go down. The Somalis killed more of their own men by the tactics that they used than our own troops killed.

5.56 is a SORRY close-range (less than 300 meters) caliber no matter WHO makes the system to deliver it.

When I sailed the ocean blue and we went into port we laid out firehoses along the main deck. when a small boat came to within certain distance we cranked up the firemain and blew them out of the water with water. But, you had to be alert and not let them get close enough to do damage as they did on the USS Cole. My other comment is we need to recognize that not everyone in the world thinks the good old USA is great, and they want to do us harm. When we collectively recognize this fact the tide will turn. Stop the Mr. Nice guy concept and fight fire with fire.

?:I seem to recall, twas '69, in the fall: the M14
could poke holes in 1/4" armor plate, while 5.56 was not only a "feather-in-the-wind", but deflected by bamboo! "twas also the first time in U.S. military history that we relied upon only one source for any single class of armament. Does the foregoing read like a list of handicaps? (As if political constraint/protocol be not more than enough already). I am for anything, at this juncture, that honestly gives our people a better
shot, if you will, 'cause whether we like where they are, why, and the overall plan(s), these are still OUR people, and I like to preserve their options in their favor any way we can. And we can't make wise decisions without information. Trust a "foreign manufacturer"? Hmmmmm...

I would hate to have to depend on this thing in close combat, plastic , no bayonet stud, looks like something from Buck Rogers, The M-16 is as small as I would care to go and at least it has a bayonet stud, and if the .223 round is properly applied it will do the job it was intended for, I know this to be a fact after 3 tours of duty in the Viet-nam war.also, the M-16 "aint broke" so don't try to fix it.
Woody Sullivan

Outstanding summary on the "Nuts and Bolts of GPS". Thanks

I really think this LeMas blended metal technology could solve all of our 5.56 woes as long as it doesn't get caught up in the Geneva Convention.

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=361

I say forget all this hogwash about the rifle not being built in the states. Many American boys have already died because of that attitude. It it works we should take it no matter where it comes from, even Russia. It seems like just yesterday everyone hated the M-16 family for more reasons than I can list. Then H and K comes up with something that works even better and we all come down with the shakes. I am not for change for change's sake but I am all for change when it is time. Technology has passed the M-16 long ago and what we have now is a system that is cobbled together with various parts from all over the parts bin. If we intend to stick our nose in everyone else's business and constantly stay at war with minor nations, putting our sons boots on the ground then let us give him a battle rifle that he is happy with instead of something that he has to carry around in a plastic bag. Also check out the new Israelis main battle rifle. They are a country that can't afford to make stupid mistakes that fill up their graveyards. We can't either or should be ashamed if we do. If we intend to be the policeman to the world then we should also go far far out of our way - all politics aside to issue the best to the guys who's job it is to carry out our orders. Also I hope they have a civilian model as I would like to get my hands on one to kill tin cans with.

I'd like to see a head to head competition between the AR-10 in .308 and the M-21/M-25. Anyone know of any competition results?

I liked the X8 when Tom Clancy put it in his book. I thought that if it was not viable, the 82nd would look at the stingray II which I believe is an American export.

Actually, for some reason I got sent to this thread from something TOTALLY different but since I'm here... The M-16 problem during Vietnam was due to a couple of things. One being the ammo used ( not the caliber which was a problem all it's own considering what US troops were use to dealing with ). The rounds themselves used a different types of powder. Today you wouldn't think nothing of that but at that point our troops werent used to dealing with variouse types of round's charges. They were used to " no matter what weapon you had, you cleaned it when you could or later ". The newer rounds not only jacked with them in it's firing characteristics but it also required more cleaning of the weapon than field personnel were used to. This was supposedly later corrected by using a different type of powder. Personnally, I wasn't there but knowing weapons and the way different types of rounds effect your shot...it makes sense. What I do know is that while I was in the service, I was SPOILT on the M16. I say spoilt because after getting used to the " Combat Sights" on the weapon I haven't been able to use straight open sights right since ! LoL. I was one of those that only qualified with less than " Expert " once and that was during Basic. To be exact, the very first time I fired the weapon. Every other time I qualified either 38 or 39 out of 40. The only complaint I had with the M16 was that it was essentially a high-velocity 22 rifle. Alot of speed but no real stopping power. Sorta like the militarys mistake of going to the 9mm. Except the 9 has more stopping poer than the M16! The AR-10 shocked me. A ex-roomate bought one a few years ago ( It was a Springfield ) and being used to your general 7.62 round I figured this little rifle was gonna hit the shoulder pretty good. This rifle was about the size of one of the longer M4s. It actually kicked less than the full size M16A2! I fell in love with this weapon instantly. I really wish that if the military was gonna make a caliber change like they seem to be determined to do, that it would be to a bigger round with longer range rather than there more likely consideration. I would not only be smarter but at the same time, probably cheaper. The 7.62 NATO can be a gentle bull coming outta the M60 but in single fire or burst, believe it or not it is alot nicer.
Now where did the thread to GPS go?!LoL

P.S. In some ways I agree with foot. I will go one better though. When it comes to lives being put on the line and depending on a weapon I feel we should stick with a round that is proven. H&K I feel is a proven company but instincts about the new weapon make me skittish. With more time and real proofing maybe that could be laid to rest. Best bet would be, let Spec.Ops. test it. That don't mean in real action unless their comfortable with it but if anyone can put it to a test it would be there even outside real combat. If they say it's good then our troops can and should go to it. As far as whether or not we should be in the little nations fighting...well, when we put ourselves in the position to be the only semi-realistic international police force ( militarily speaking ) then we asked for what we get. As the most powerful nation on earth I do believe we have a certian responsibility but there again as with anything there has got to be a line drawn. Where do we draw that line. Iraq I feel should have been dealt with along time ago...even before we went in the first time. Saying that I also have little doubt that, that is something WE will never totally defeat. You can't beat fanatics without totally wiping them out. That's something we can't do by any other means short of genoside and I don't believe in that. It's pretty much a moral and morale oxy-moron. We can only do the best we can do. In my opinion our timing could have been better on Iraq ( as in waiting until we were done dealing with Afganistan instead of splitting our efforts and forces ) but anyone who thought either was gonna be a short run situation was severely uninformed, blind, and unfortunately to innocent to even think about war. Thought's of peace and the world just getting along are nice but the real world isn't near that nice.

[This message was edited by jd71529 on Sun, 26 September 2004 at 3:08.]