Pay close attention to where H&K plans to build the production facility and then see who the Congressman/Senator is from that district and then you will have your answer as to whether it will be built. BACON BACON BACON THINK JOBS!!!


“Don't play that sh*t where you make me drag your words out. Declare, or shut the f*** up.”
—Swearengen to Farnum

A German made rifle for the United States Military?! Have we gone insane? What's next, a French made tank? How about a North Korean attack helicopter? Maybe we can get a replacement for the M-60 machine gun made by Saddam Husein himself. What happened to, "you are with us or against us?"

The first data I read about the XM8 months ago included larger ammo of 6.8mm, and that got my attention. I was disturbed to read this current article that stated the ammo to be 5.56mm (otherwise known as the .223 caliber rabbit round). That doesn't have the knock-down power of the AK47's 7.62mm (equivalent to the .308 caliber), and that is usually what our guys face in the field against an enemy. We were outgunned in VN by that fine, reliable weapon that could continue firing even when caked in mud! I know the M16 is better now; but, 5.56mm still stinks -- like it did when I was in VN in 66/67. All the bells, whistles, and interchangeability pale if the XM8 is relegated to the 5.56mm rabbit round. If that's the political decision again (i.e., screw the troops), then keep the M16 as is. Our troops will just have to keep shooting the enemy two, three, four, five times to bring him down.

What will we have next, a rifle made by the al-Quaida? te big problem with the M-16 has always been (as Col. Hackworth has said time and again)the firepower of our M-16 as apposed to the AK-47 7.62 that our enemy is erroneous at best. The difference in calibration shows every time. We need to boot-up to at least a 280 caliber to even the playing field. Yet, for some unknown reason, "our powers that be" still insist on a puny round. Why, I will never know?

My experience level goes back to and includes the Thompson .45 SMG, the M-1 Carbine, the M-1 Garand (my favorite), the misbegotten M-14 and the M-16 in various versions. I was a machine gunner by MOS and of course have used the M1914 LMG and the (also misbegotten) M-60.

As for H&K, they make superior firearms, but their prices are outrageous. As a gun dealer, I stopped selling H&K handguns because of what I considered price gouging by H&K.

Whatever H&K can do, I am sure a US firearms manufacturer can do as well or better. Other comments regarding reliance on overseas sources for our firearms is folly.

Any new weapon design shoud IMHO a larger caliber bullet. If the Soviet Bloc and Chinese could manufacture a 7.62 weapon with a shorter cartridge length (than our own 7.62 round), so can we.

The H&K product looks like a space-age firearm but I believe the Army/USMC would be well-advised to look at other alternatives.

anyone seen the bullpup put out by Bushmaster? except for the short range Iron sights its A good starting place

The weapon sounds good but with todays technology and it being made in a country that does not support us do you think the weapon could be turned on and off by a micro-chip lets develop one in the USA. Keep the ole M-16 clean and it did a great job or at least it did for me in Viet Nam

I donno but i like this new rifle if it really is all they say it is y dont we just slowly replace the m-16 with it

HudakMarine said:

"In the absence of the 6.8 cartridge in the same type of M4/M16/XM8 layout, it's time to give the bullpup design another look if we insist on using the 5.56 for the foreseeable future."

I agree with Hudak that the Bullpup design:

1. longer barrel in a
2. shorter overall length
(good idea in places like Iraq where armored
vehicles are life-savers)
should be considered.

I do not agree that a .22 bullet should be used.
If not a .30 cal, then a 6.8 mm can't be as in-
effective as the 5.6 mm.

Surely the M-16 needs to be replaced or refurbished. I would like to see our Military use
American Firearm manufactures....or atleast have
the Corporations made in the USA. Having fought in Vietnam and remembering we lost 58000 men, then
seeing the "Senator" who wants to be Commander in
Chief join with "Hanoia" Jane Fonda in '71 should
be an eye opener for Americans now in 2004!
I like your article, Nicke, hope some of our
Military Thinkers think this over "before" selling
out the USA.
Maury.

Just contemplating the situation: it seems to me that the shortcomings of the 5.56mm weren't all that obvious is that in Vietnam a lot of engagements were fought at short ranges and the intervening conflicts have often been similarly slanted towards short ranges . And until Afghanistan the military actions we've fought were of short duration where the deficiencies weren't as obvious. (though to be fair I recall that there were more than a few at the time and in the years since questioning it's effectiveness). Since hindsight is always 20-20, looking back I think it has to be admitted that we mad a mistake going to the 5.56mm, We'd have done far better to go something like the 7.62x39mm.
From what I've read the 6.8mm should be a much better choice. Apparently it has already been used in Afghanistan by Special Forces. One of the brilliant stroke the designers had was to keep the cartidge dimensions such that existing 5.56mm weapons can be rebuilt to use it. Considering the numbers involved (20,000+ in Afghanistan, 130,000+ in Iraq) I don't see where converting over should to either a modified M16 or a new rifle in 6.8mm should be that difficult.

This thing is a piece of junk. Why buy rifles from the German's who have been less that supportive in our Iraqi war efforts. I'll take any newly developed American rifle over a H-K.
Why lower our standards.........Where is the bayonet mount. Oh, I forgot the French and German's are always too busy running from their responsibility to defend freedom to have use for one.
Just look at the Barretta pistol ...........what a waste......A Colt .45 still beats the crap out of it in battlefield performces and it's almost 100 years old.

I think the XM-8 battle rifle is a great idea that is long overdue. It is adaptable to the ever changing situation on the modern battlefield. My only objection to the XM-8 rifle is the following. Why are we still using that teeny tiny little round of a bullet, and we all know what I`m talking about, the 5.56! And I know all about the nay sayers, the Nato people that say the 5.56 round is the standard NATO round. Well where are our NATO friends in IRAQ! Like the French and Germans. I say the hell with Nato and their wimpy 5.56mm round. It`s high time that our armed forces have a battle rifle with a little more knock down power. If you don`t believe me ask any Ranger that was in Mogadishu or any SEAL member that prefered an AK type rifle during a deployment. They`ll coraborate my story.

I like the M16 and the M4. I wouldn't mind switching to this but it MUST HAVE IRON SIGHTS!!!

Now we're blaming NATO for the 5.56mm? Think back. The Brits were working on a .280 round that had promise but went nowhere because the US insisted on what became the 7.62 NATO. Then, when all of NATO switched to it, the US went to the 5.56mm. All of NATO eventually switched over (along with Japan, Korea, Sweden, Switzerland and most everybody else outside the late Soviet Bloc). Now we're going to switch again. That's gong to make friends. Of course, the good thing is that it appears most of the current 5.56mm rifles can be converted to 6.8mm.

A cautionary note about mixing politics with weapons. In WWI the AEF ended up using the French Chauchat light machinegun, a piece of crap even by French standards. We could have used the Lewis gun, designed by an American and made in the US for the English and Belgians, but the head of Ordnance had a grudge against Col. Lewis and wouldn't consider it. So the Doughboys paid the price for it.

quote:

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Originally posted by sooptuptroop:
A German made rifle for the United States Military?! Have we gone insane? What's next, a French made tank? How about a North Korean attack helicopter? Maybe we can get a replacement for the M-60 machine gun made by Saddam Husein himself. What happened to, "you are with us or against us?"

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Always playing politics!!!! German Rifles are among the best. Especially H&Ks. But seriously, why would anyone want an electronic sight that requires batteries. Think people, it's the heat of combat, not a science fair!!!!! What teh military needs is an M-16 that doesn't jam and a few good men to fire the damn thing.

When I see our troops in Iraq shooting it out with the bad guys; and I see all the stone and brick buildings that we are trying to shoot through - I wish I could send them all AR10's! I know lugging around .308 ammo is a burden, 100 rounds of 5.56 is lighter than 100 rounds of 7.62. But that 5.56 is just too small of a round! I am not saying that the AR10 (.308) is the future solution - but we have to get out off of the 5.56 band wagon! I don't believe any of the 5.56 hype. I do not accept the "Tumbling Bullet" shoot a guy in the foot and the 5.56 will bounce around inside the body and come out the top of his head. I also do not accept that if you wound one guy then you tie up two more bad guys who will drag their buddy to safety (better to wound than to kill theory). Our troops need a bigger bullet!

quote:

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Originally posted by 2231791:
When I see our troops in Iraq shooting it out with the bad guys; and I see all the stone and brick buildings that we are trying to shoot through - I wish I could send them all AR10's!

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AR10's wouldn't shoot through the stone or brick eigther...

quote:

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Originally posted by 2231791:
I know lugging around .308 ammo is a burden, 100 rounds of 5.56 is lighter than 100 rounds of 7.62. But that 5.56 is just too small of a round!

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Yes it would be heavier and for god sakes don't make me carry it!

quote:

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Originally posted by 2231791:
I don't believe any of the 5.56 hype. I do not accept the "Tumbling Bullet" shoot a guy in the foot and the 5.56 will bounce around inside the body and come out the top of his head. I also do not accept that if you wound one guy then you tie up two more bad guys who will drag their buddy to safety (better to wound than to kill theory). Our troops need a bigger bullet!

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You don't have to believe it. But I do and can testify to it's logic.

All the talk about replacing the M-16. Why not replace it with the AK-47? For the people that have never shot or use an AK-47, here are some things to think about:

1. AMMO can be found in just about every country that the U.S. may be fighting in. / or use the enemy’s ammo, when needed.

2. The AK 47 will work and shoot in just about any conditions i.e. Mud, Sand, Snow, Rain, and so on.

3. For close-in combat, the AK 47 round will put down any man that it hits.

4. The AK 47 Rifle is cheap to product.

5. In a “Have-To- Case” parts can be use from an enemy’s weapon.

6. The AK 47 is ease to maintain.

Most of my experience is out of date but I do have the following comments:
I think that we need a round with more stopping power than the jacketed 5.56. I had the dubious pleasure of working on US and NVA hit with our 5.56 and 7.62 and the AK/SKS rounds. Some of the NVA kept charging with multiple 5.56; never saw that with the 7.62
I agree with the concerns about the foreign manufacture; esp as our relations with Europe become more problematic. Some of us remember an excellent weapons system make in US by Stoner that solved all of the M-16 problems way back in 1967. The only problem was Colt had much more political backing. As noted above, thats the name of that tune.
Final word on the M-16. In Nam I saw 3-4 supposed fixes of the M-16 in one year. If we still cannot fix it after 30+ years, junk it.
Doc Robertson formerly 1st Force Recon