Why dont we give the M8 to Beretta or Ruger or somebody and let them make it a whole lot better and different looking.

Dear Member,

As long as it is made in the US should it matter where it is designed. The famous Springfield is US version of the German Mauser. The M60 machine gun is a version of the German paratrooper assault rifle fitted with a belt feed from the German MG42. Imagine the US Army soldiers who would have been alive in Korea if the US Army had just copied the dirt cheap and effective PANZERFAUST after WW2 instead of sticking with the 2.36 Bazooka till it was almost to late.

Also today the SAW is a Belgium designed weapon as the replacement for the M60 is.

Jack E. Hammond

quote:

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Originally posted by 101airborne101:
Colt and the M-16 series rifles saved my life and the lives of many of my friends in Vietnam, yet the politicians tried to withhold that firearm from US soldiers in lieu of the out dated M-14. Now they're attempting to shove another piece of crap (the MX-8) onto our soldiers because they have a surplus of 5.56 rounds and that's what the MX-8 uses. Why buy a German rifle? They have already proven by their Iraq policy, when in doubt German's cut and run (God forbid they might have to stand on their on two legs and defend what is morally right). What happens to weapon supplies if the German's don't like who we use them against. Do they close the US factories and go home? Get real and buy USA made products. We did whip the German's in WWII, didn't we?

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Reading Sgt. Dillard Johnson’s article leaves me baffled. He did say that the Army pretty much outfits you with everything you need but it leaves me wondering, just how much of his equipment does a man have to purchase out of his own pocket for the privilege of putting his butt on the line? I’m an “older” vet, served shortly AFTER World War II, at a time when the Army everything you needed (what you bought on your own were “conveniences”) and told you what to carry with you. It sounds like the military is furnishing enough equipment do the job of destroying the enemy, but not getting your butt blown off in the process is your problem. If so, this really pisses me off and I will fire off my comments to Senator Warner and my own representatives as well as the White House.
It is inexcusable and unacceptable that a man has to buy his own equipment to fight a war. Any response or comments will be welcome
In closing; even as a vet, I am awed by you guys; all the equipment you carry and have to know how to use, your professionalism, your courage. I salute you, and my regret is that I am too old to be there with you.
Floyd Campbell
Former SFC
3rd Armored Division

First: original round for the M-16A1 is the M193 not the M198.
Second: The M855 round is a good round. When achieving velocities above 2700 ft/sec it has all the range and terminal performace required for military applications. A problem arises when you shoot the round out of a barrell shorter than 20". The bullet has less velocity, and doesn't perform as designed. The XM-8 with the 12.5" or 9" barrell and M855 ammo is no better than an M-4 carbine with an 11.5" barrell and M855 Ammo.
Will the Army ever learn?

Has the M16 weapon system improved as much as, say the family car over the last 40 years? No, it most certainly has not. And even if it had, it's still saddled with an ammunition choice that performs poorly--to put it mildly--against human targets. With cars the advances over the last 40 years have brought us safer, faster, better handling and more effient products than anything the "Muscle Car Era" could produce. I am sure that the same thing could be applied to battle rifles/carbines.

American firearms manufacturers WERE invited to participate in the procurement program for a new rifle. I admit, I'm biased; I am an active duty soldier who deployed to Iraq at the start of the war. Anything that results in me being issued an inferior weapon is a non-starter in my opinion.

Colt Firearms has been so grossly mismanaged over the last 30 or so years they're barely a player anymore. Smith and Wesson was lukewarm on the expense of tooling up to meet the demands of a major Government contract (pennywise/pound foolish). Ruger and Winchester/U.S. Repeating Arms chose not to participate at all. No idea where Remington was.

As to the prospect of the Germans closing up shop and going home...they have something like 5 billion reasons to stay.

quote:

---

Originally posted by hybenamon:
Dear Member,

As long as it is made in the US should it matter where it is designed. The famous Springfield is US version of the German Mauser. The M60 machine gun is a version of the German paratrooper assault rifle fitted with a belt feed from the German MG42. Imagine the US Army soldiers who would have been alive in Korea if the US Army had just copied the dirt cheap and effective PANZERFAUST after WW2 instead of sticking with the 2.36 Bazooka till it was almost to late.

Also today the SAW is a Belgium designed weapon as the replacement for the M60 is.

Jack E. Hammond

quote:

---

Originally posted by 101airborne101:
Colt and the M-16 series rifles saved my life and the lives of many of my friends in Vietnam, yet the politicians tried to withhold that firearm from US soldiers in lieu of the out dated M-14. Now they're attempting to shove another piece of crap (the MX-8) onto our soldiers because they have a surplus of 5.56 rounds and that's what the MX-8 uses. Why buy a German rifle? They have already proven by their Iraq policy, when in doubt German's cut and run (God forbid they might have to stand on their on two legs and defend what is morally right). What happens to weapon supplies if the German's don't like who we use them against. Do they close the US factories and go home? Get real and buy USA made products. We did whip the German's in WWII, didn't we?

---

---

I'm an Army vet - early 70's VOLAR Army -and owner of the civilian legal version of the M4. I believe that the decision to transition to the heavier M109 round was a mistake - this round seems to be doing its job - penetrating, unlike the original 55 grain round, which upset quickly upon contact with a body, yawing wildly and shedding its copper jacket, causing damage far beyond what its weight would indicate. As far as buying a complete new rifle such as the M8 I feel it would be more cost effective to either buy new uppers with a piston system - (a number of civilian manufacturers have developed AK action type uppers with a gas piston replacing the direct impingiment gas system) or convert existing uppers to this system - Interchangability is possible still....push out two pins add another upper, such as the Shrike beltfed system (do a google search for the Shrike), or a long barreled 'marksman'upper. The Stoner system has a lot of life left in it....

It is a very good thing that our higher echolon is thinking of improving the infantry fighting weapon. The new 6.8mm round is a good start but not approved for our arm services should be looked at more closely. To have a more lethal and ballistically round, why not neck down the 6.8mm casing to a .260 caliber bullet @ 120-125grs? It would offer better ballistics, more knock-down power at 300-500 meter ranges and flatter trajectory than the 6.8mm. Being an old infantry (airborne) soldier and long time hunter, it would make sense to give our fighting soldiers more confidence in their weapon and being able to lethally take down the enemy at longer ranges. It can be easily done because ammo manufactures already produce the .260 Remington for hunting and reloading components are availiable. Never, ever should the thought of replacing the time and tested 7.62x51mm (.308) round. It would make sense to load the ammo with a 155gr., FMJ. Again, a small fix that can improve the down range ballistics for our medium machine guns and M-14's. Instead of spending millions to fix a problem, look for simple solutions first!!!!

I THINK THE PISTOL SUIT TO THE POLICE-MAN
AND MILITARY,SIR.

What is the cost per unit for this one?
Looks like a promising model...

the pricing i have heard is some where around $700 to $900

I belive every branch of the military should be assigned stationed guns each with their on training just for that weapon that their branch has. the M16A4 and the M16A2 are not out dated they are just as good as any other gun that the military can offer because our boys in Iraq have those kind of guns and they don't complan about them because i'am sure that has saved there life more than once every gun is the same because u got to pull the trigger to make it fire

I totally agree with Sgt.Truth.
Dam*ed,you know,what you just said = everything I want to say about M16A4.

And I totally agree about M4 is better than M16A4.
And if I have to choose between M16A4 & M4 ,
I will choose M4.

Blessed are the MEEK for they shall Inherit the Earth....One hurled Rock at a Time !!!

quote:

Originally posted by RICK_SKANKLIN:
Hello I'm Gunnery SGT> Shanklin and I was tinkling about trying to become a snipper in the U.S.M.C. can any one help point me in the right direction?

======================================
you are a Marine gunnery Sgt an E-6 AND YOU CAN'T ANSWER YOURE OWN QUESTION?

I was in OIF-1. My ARNG unit received M16A4s and M68 CCO (reflex red dot 1x optic sights). As an armorer, I feel the system has a number of flaws. The rail system/handguards are not removable by soldiers (nor by armorers unless they buy their own metric hex keys the gov't hasn't added to their toolboxes). The handguards are an even bigger entry point for dust and sand than on the M16A2.

WHY A BATTERY POWERED 1X RED-DOT?!? The M68 sight has no safety switch to prevent it from accidentally being turned on. The off/on isn't even marked (the army's PS magazine told me to use paint-markers to draw a line across the switch to tell). The sights are very easy to leave on, and absolutely useless without batteries. The lithium button cell batteries are not useable in any other equipment, and hard to get in CONUS, much less Iraq. Mounting the sight using the M16A2 adapter is the only way to keep iron sights on the rifle as a backup, and then it is way to bulky and cumbersome. The British L85 rifle has the right idea - low magnification (3X) optics with a tritium crosshairs so it's usable at night.

The M16A4 and M249 (standard stock) are much too long for vehicles. We didn't have any type of armor for our vehicles in Iraq (nor did we have ballistic plates for our body armor for the first 8 months). Our SOP for patrolling, convoy escort, etc was to ride with all doors (the canvas ones) removed, and your rifle at the low ready out the door. M4's would have been ideal, but reserve/guard units are not being issued them in sufficient quantities (nor are they receiving M240B's that have been promised for years).

Whoever is manufacturing the linked ammunition for the M249 SAW needs to improve the quality of their links, and their linking process. Belts of ammo averaged 2-3 damaged rounds and 4-5 damaged links per 200 rd belt. The links rusted easily when exposed to moisture for just a few hours on patrols, and would pull off the rounds way too easily when the weapon was mounted.

The posters who keep ragging on HK and the XM being a "foreign weapon" need to wake up. FN or Fabrique National is a Belgian company, that has a US subsidiary making most of the M16s, M249s and a variety of other weaponry. Berretta is an Italian company, who manufactures the M9 (in the USA, but the first were produced in Italy.) Just because HK is German owned, the American subsidiary, manufacturing in the United States, employing American workers, will be doing the production if the XM-8 is accepted as a service rifle.

Like OMG, you all have no clue what you're talking about. I have been playing counter strike, delta force, and rainbow six for the past five years... I know for a fact that the AK-47 better than any gun that the US has or uses. Like this one time I was like playing Delta Force and I like got a AK-47 cheat/mod thing and I like totally pwned everyone. So like hello get a clue people, and learn your weapons from a real source. It is pretty bad when a 16 year old kid like me knows more than you like you ancient fifty year old old farts. I am like so smart it like totally isn't even funny.

Please Tell me he ^ is joking. Please because other wise I have lost all faith in the youth of the World.

And a point about who Will build it.

http://www.generaldynamics.com/news/press_releases/2005/NewsRelease%20January3,%202005.htm

General Dynamics Corporation (ticker: GD, exchange: NYSE)
News Release - Monday, January 3, 2005

General Dynamics Partners with Heckler & Koch to Create U.S. Source for XM8 Modular Weapon System
Companies create joint venture for licensing and production of high-speed battle weapon.

FALLS CHURCH, Va. – General Dynamics European Land Combat Systems, a business unit of General Dynamics (NYSE: GD), and Heckler & Koch GmbH of Oberndorf, Germany, have created a U.S.-based joint venture company to manufacture and deliver the 5.56mm XM8 Light Weight Modular Carbine System to U.S. government customers.

Art Veitch, General Dynamics executive vice president for Combat Systems, said, “This partnership expands General Dynamics’ ability to meet the varied requirements of the U.S. infantry soldier, our traditional customer, while providing the government with a domestic supply of a crucial transformational weapon system. We look forward to working with Heckler & Koch to achieve the full U.S. market potential for this excellent weapon.”

The XM8 Light Weight Modular Weapon System has been proposed as a replacement for the current M16 rifle and M4 carbine, the standard infantry weapons in today's U.S. military. The XM8’s action is based on the Heckler & Koch G36, a proven infantry weapon. Different barrels and other modules can be swapped quickly to meet changing mission requirements. Variants include the baseline carbine, a sub-machine gun-like personal defense weapon, a sharpshooter’s configuration and a variant for use as a heavy-duty machine gun for sustained rapid-fire applications. An optional add-on 40mm grenade launcher is also available.

Heckler & Koch, a leader in the design and manufacturing of technologically advanced firearms for defense and law enforcement, is the firm behind some of the most well known firearms of the last fifty years including the G3 rifle, MP5 submachine gun, USP pistol, and newer models such as the MP7 Personal Defense Weapon, the UMP submachine gun, and the G36 weapon system. The company has U.S. operations based in Sterling, Va.

General Dynamics European Land Combat Systems is a business unit within the General Dynamics Combat Systems group. The unit is composed of the three European land combat systems companies owned by General Dynamics: MOWAG AG, of Kreuzlingen, Switzerland; General Dynamics Santa Barbara Sistemas, of Madrid, Spain; and Steyr Spezialfahrzeug, based in Vienna, Austria.

General Dynamics, headquartered in Falls Church, Virginia, employs approximately 71,600 people worldwide and anticipates 2004 revenue in excess of $19 billion. The company is a market leader in mission-critical information systems and technologies; land and expeditionary combat systems, armaments and munitions; shipbuilding and marine systems; and business aviation.

XM 8 & HK416 are good.Pl compare them w SAR 21--Singapore Assualt Rifle 21.

You will be laughing if I ask the
mighty US to consider the SAR 21--Singapore Assualt Rifle 21--to replace M16.But,pl read:
www.janes.com/regional_news/asia_pacific/news/idr/idr000531_1_n.shtml

by Charles Q Cutshaw .

2.SAR 21 has:

Intergrated laser hidden and protected inside the handguard.No x'mas tree like attachment.

1.5 times sights inside the handle,factory zeroed.

very light recoil.

Produced in 1999 and field tested,and passed.

3.I tried it out few years ago and the recoil was very low.It was reported that even ladies could hit with high hit rate when they fired first rifle in their life.

4.pl see

http://www.stengg.com/CoyCapPro/detail.aspx?pdid=133.

5.Never mind it come from a red dot country(u can't find in map),but it can save GI's life.

6.Vision techlogies in US is selling Spore weapons www.vt-systems.com/land_weapons_products.as
I think some of your civilian shooters have tried SAR 21.Ask them.

7.The laser sight 1.5 time is part of the handle for GI to carry the rifle when they walk or run for their life.The handle is very convenient.Also,the sling can be changed for combat mode in no time.

8.
The attached sight and laser etc on XM8 and HK 416 will create problems,especially inside jungle ,brush etc.Why the builder could not intergrated them inside the rifle body,like Singapore Assualt Rifle 21?The 1.5 optics is inside the handle and laser inside the hand gurad.You may say what if soldier want to change them due to other requirement or the equipment damaged?You are right.But there is no perfect answer.Shall we cater for GI for a smooth actions inside jungle or we cater for the change which may not be so often?

9.http://www.mindef.sg/army/infantry_weapons_sar21.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAR-21

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as31-e.htm

Does the SAR 21 look better,outline so smooth,less hinky pinky to catch vegetation inside jungle.It will absorb better shock during actions for the round body.Other two have so many sharp angles,esp the sights which will easily be dameged due to the
position.Ask http://www.vt-systems.com/land_weapons.asp
to know more.

10.Military rifles is for fighting in tough situation,not used by softly spoken gentlemen or ladies to shoot in high class country club or for shooting movie.They must be designed to such situation.How can a big sight attachment to such rifle.The GI will find the rifle not balance and has to balancre it,affecting the aiming.

11.With billions spent on military,why the second life--the rifle or wife of GI is overlooked for such a long time?

12.Singapore has many first in weapons:
a. At 11 Lbs, the Ultimax 100 still holds the record for being the lightest 5.56 mm calibre machine gun in the world.

b.Super Light Weight Automatic Grenade Launcher

ST Kinetics SLWAGL was created for a dual purpose - to be mounted on vehicle and/ or light enough to be carried by light infantry personnel.

c.155mm Light Weight Self Propelled Howitzer

Weighing only 7 tons, the 155mm LWSPH is the world's first and only 39 calibre 155mm self propelled howitzer that is mounted on a light weight powered chassis and is air- transportable by C130s, CH47Ds and CH53s.

d.FH2000 which has the distinction of being the first 155mm 52 Caliber field howitzer in the world to be in service

e. ST Kinetics' 120mm SRAMS is the first mortar in the world with a recoil force of less than 20 tons when firing maximum charge. This means that the system weighing only 2640 Lbs can be integrated into a wide range of light tracked or wheeled vehicles.

f.Singapore is familiar of converting M113,aircrafts etc,exporting expertise,

g.The Singapore Self-Propelled Howitzer 1 (SSPH 1) Primus is a 155 mm, 39 calibre track-based, self-propelled howitzer.Combat wt 283,000 kg,shell range 30km

13.Do not forget her BIONEX,IFV,is one of the 4 finalist of US army MAV few years ago.It is her first IFV.Spore has vast experience of making M16 under license,her own SA80 nad SA 88 and the above.Do not surprise if her SAR-21 is one of the finalist to replace M16.

Here's a change to the rifle: http://www.darkhorse-acre.com