Just took a look at EBay and what to my wandering eye should appear but a reproduction Air Force MOH offered by a seller in Australia. The ad states that he will not sell to a buyer in US. So that keeps Ebay out of hot water for aiding and abetting an illegal sale, I presume. Anyone know for sure?

If I remember correctly, it is illegal to buy or sell a MOH. And, as far as I know, it's also illegal to possess one without the proper authority to do so.

The FBI seized one from the property of a guy who died at our local VA years ago. He'd claimed to be a MOH awardee, but wasn't. They had taken one from him on a previous occasion. The local paper had to run a retraction of his glowing obituary, all based on his fabrications.

The company that produces the medals got in trouble several years ago because they were selling them.

An E-mail to ebay usually does the trick of yanking things like that off the auction block.

I've done it with USCG uniform items deemed "LE-related" when they have appeared.

collectbadges.com sells LE badge knock-offs (and in some cases, real badges that are of antique interest). I've even found one of ours (CGIS) on there, though is looks like they are being produced outside of the country (some of the intricate detail work just wasn't there on the knock-offs).

I don't know if the Stolen Valor Act of 2005 applies to someone manufacturing the knock-offs outside the US and only selling them to folks outside the US. I don't know if ebay gets in trouble for being the middleman.

But I can find out...

When my mother and grandparents visited me in West Germany in '79, we found an Iron Cross (with Nazi swastika on it) in a pawn shop near the Frankfort Hauptbahnhof. My grandfather (who had been born in Germany and emigrated to the US during WW I) bought it for my uncle, who had an Iron Cross tattooed on his shoulder.

I guess that would have been akin to selling the CMOH in a local pawn shop.

I would think the Iron Crosses without the swastika would be more rare and meaningful.

A lot of factors go into that. First, foreign countries do not fall under our jurisdiction, so they can buy and sell whatever they want there within their own laws.

18USC704:
(a) In General.— Whoever knowingly wears, purchases, attempts to purchase, solicits for purchase, mails, ships, imports, exports, produces blank certificates of receipt for, manufactures, sells, attempts to sell, advertises for sale, trades, barters, or exchanges for anything of value any decoration or medal authorized by Congress for the armed forces of the United States, or any of the service medals or badges awarded to the members of such forces, or the ribbon, button, or rosette of any such badge, decoration or medal, or any colorable imitation thereof, except when authorized under regulations made pursuant to law, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

So, as long as it does not enter the jurisdiction of the United States, it's fine. Looking at the ebay ad and quarterdeck medals & militaria website, it appears that the item in question was produced by a company specializing in reproductions of world medals. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm guessing there are technicalities involved.
Would a medal clearly marked "reproduction" be legally considered an actual "decoration or medal authorized by Congress for the armed forces of the United States" for the purpose of prosecution?

quote:

Originally posted by JerryG:
When my mother and grandparents visited me in West Germany in '79, we found an Iron Cross (with Nazi swastika on it) in a pawn shop near the Frankfort Hauptbahnhof. My grandfather (who had been born in Germany and emigrated to the US during WW I) bought it for my uncle, who had an Iron Cross tattooed on his shoulder.

One of the many things to watch out for when crossing national borders;
Had he stopped in or flown through France, and security happened across said Iron Cross with swastika on his person, he'd have been in deep sh*t. It is illegal to possess swastikas or anything of the like in France, and they don't take kindly to excuses.
This brings up ebay in general, and swastikas, and France, and Medals overseas...
A few years ago France tried to take legal action against ebay for exactly this reason, internet users in France were able to access auctions for, and purchase, Nazi memorabilia contrary to French law and they wanted to hold ebay legally accountable for it and to cease these auctions worldwide. I can't remember what the details were exactly, but needless to say you can still buy swastikas on ebay, but maybe not in France. Anyway, it was one of the big big conundrums the borderless internet has thrown into the legal world. For those interested I'm sure there are readily available articles about it online.

quote:

When my mother and grandparents visited me in West Germany in '79, we found an Iron Cross (with Nazi swastika on it) in a pawn shop near the Frankfort Hauptbahnhof. My grandfather (who had been born in Germany and emigrated to the US during WW I) bought it for my uncle, who had an Iron Cross tattooed on his shoulder.

I guess that would have been akin to selling the CMOH in a local pawn shop.

Not 100% but roughly:

Iron Cross, 2nd Class = ARCOM/AFCOM/NMCOM/CGCOM with "V" Device
Iron Cross, 1st Class = BSM with "V" Device
Knights Cross of the Iron Cross = LOM with "V" Device
Knights Cross, with Oak Leaves = Silver Star
Knights Cross, with Oak Leaves and Swords = DSM
Knights Cross,with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds = DSC/NC/AFC
Knights Cross, with Golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds = CMOH

Wear of decorations with Swastikas or other Nazi symbols were outlawed after the war. In 1957 the West German Government re-authorized the wear of certain WWII decorations, but the Swastikas and such had to be removed.

Normally it was replaced with three oakleaves in the form of a short Christian Cross.

Again, not 100% but I think that sale to your family was illegal under German law.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: shuman14,

quote:

Originally posted by shuman14:
Again, not 100% but I think that sale to your family was illegal under German law.

Not really, German law makes a big difference between ownership and display. A person or shopkeeper can own and sell items with swastikas, but can not display them publicly - they would need to be obscured. As silly as it sounds, if you wanted to put a coin or something with a swastika in your store window, you'd have to cover it with masking tape or something (obscuration need not be permanent). That's also why neo-nazis don't use swastika flags and symbols in Germany. They often use older Imperial German symbols and flags, which ironically Hitler didn't like.

Similarly, the Iron Cross from WWII with the swastika could not be displayed publicly. In 1957 the German government authorized the WWII EK's with the three leafed Oak seedling in the swastika's place.

It is of course difficult to equate foreign awards to other country's awards. The WWII German system for Iron Crosses was more a graduated progression. Your first valorous act got you an EK 2nd Class, and the next an EK 1st Class and so on. Rarely would someone receive an award without first having earned the previous level - there were exceptions of course. But that's for a different thread...

I know this is off topic, but went to one of those antique/flea market places, they had a display case with a couple of good conduct medals they wanted 75 bucks! really!

There's a sucker born every minute and I'm sure someone bought them.

quote:

Originally posted by shuman14:
There's a sucker born every minute and I'm sure someone bought them.

Hell, I hope not!!

quote:

Originally posted by Teknowil:
I know this is off topic, but went to one of those antique/flea market places, they had a display case with a couple of good conduct medals they wanted 75 bucks! really!

Where is this at? I'll open a table next to them, and sell mine for $50 a piece.

On the original subject... I don't see how U.S. law could stop someone from Australia from selling it (CMOH) However, the law would prevent a US citizen from owning it.

Some places have interesting laws about their awards.

In England, if your still on active duty, and sell your medals. You can be prosecuted, because they are still considered government property, while you are still on active duty. Veterans can sell theirs. Which could explain the high prices for their awards.

Good Conduct for $50 That 's bad conduct Azmax