I know Norwich Cadets have a mountaineering group up there who wears those pins on their covers. Mountain Cold Weather Rescue Company or some sorts.

Find a way to get in touch with Norwich Cadets and I'm sure one of them will tell you how they get theirs. Pretty sure its made locally for them.

UPDATE!

TRADOC picked up the AMWS

its one two week phase, either summer or winter. No one is getting grandfathered in. So your a 1 phase deal now. The new pilot course just took place earlier this month.

Also, I am looking for a BDU sew on version of the Rams Head- I will pay for one of these! please PM or e-mail me at gkhogg@gmail.com if you are willing to do a monetary or other item trade for one of these- Perhaps someone doesn't mind cutting off their old BDU badge and selling it to me.

Confirmed. It's a one phase course, now.

I just got off the phone with SFC Kontos at the Army Mountain Warfare School. He forwarded me the permanent orders from the Vermont J-1

Here are some better images of Ira Green's Ram's Head Devices

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rochambeau,

So you only need one phase for the ramshead and echo identifer?

The orders read that you need both summer and winter.

quote:

Originally posted by mypetrobot:
So you only need one phase for the ramshead and echo identifer?

The orders read that you need both summer and winter.

No one said that. Look at the date of the order. We were just talking about the SQI E. The Ram's Head Device orders are different. Who knows whether they'll allow people that get the SQI to wear the badge, too.

I'm in the 3/172 IN, Yes Mountain Warfare School has been condensed to one phase but those who have taken one phase already have to take the other traditional phase. How it was explained to be by a Senior NCO was that it was done in order to get more people through. So that the Army's only Specialized Mountain Infantry Brigade has a higher ratio of soldiers with the E qualification

Hey 5277926,

I'm a former member of 3/172nd Infantry (Mountain) and completed summer and winter in 2000 and 2001. I was curious if you have completed the new consolidated phase yet or do you know how it compares to the old two-phase system. Old timers like me are wondering how the POI now works when they used to teach subjects that were unique to a season or a phase, like ice climbing and skiing in the winter, for example. I'm wondeirng how this works.

If I know AMWS, I'm guessing the usual will remain: Altimeter land nav, knots, knots, knots, systems, humping, and bivouac. Maybe more tactics will be thrown in with an OPORD and a sand table or two.

I miss the 3/172nd. I'm in a reserve drill sergeant unit now. Ascend to Victory.

quote:

Originally posted by 10747782:
If you want to see or purchase the ram's head device, contact Ira Green. I purchase my replacement ram's head devices there. A representative can email you .jpeg's of the device (both brite and subdued finishes.) They don't yet have the badge visible on their web site, but I have asked for them to post the badge. Feel free to call them and ask, as well. There just isn't a demand for them. [edit: a representative from Ira Green stated that they only sold 275 Ream's Head Devices for 2007.]

Here's a link to an image.

AR 670-1 states in paragraph 29-6 j.:

quote:

State awards for ARNG soldiers. Army National Guard personnel are authorized to wear State awards under applicable State laws or regulations when assigned to the ARNG under the command and control of the Governor or Adjutant General, under the provisions of title 32, United States Code. The term “State” includes the 50 states, U.S. territories (which include Guam and the U.S. Virgin Islands), Puerto Rico, and the District of Columbia. The following personnel statuses are included in this authorization: Active Guard Reserve (AGR); active duty for training (ADT), active duty for special work (ADSW); full-time National Guard duty (FTNGD) for special work or training, annual training; and inactive duty training (drill status), including periods when personnel may be attached to the active component or reserve of any service, whether paid or unpaid. Personnel will wear such awards in the State order of precedence, after Federal and foreign awards. Soldiers on active Federal Service, under the provisions of title 10, United States Code, are authorized to accept but not wear State or Territory awards.

and it's worn as a Group 4 badge. Chapter 29-13.

I had to remove my ram's head device upon mobilization, due to being on Title 10 orders.

So can I wear the ramshead even though I'm in the Ohio National Guard? I heard different things. Some people say only the New England states can and then other people have said and national guard graduate can.

Can some one help clarify this for me?

Pumpkin_Shrapnel, I've just graduated the new two week phase, but my unit is also going to send me to the winter phase as well, so after I finish the winter one I can tell exactly whats the same and whats different.

I know they added animal packing, and well searches. I also heard that systems will be in the winter phase, where as previously classes before tradoc picked it up there wasn't.

It will vary from State to State, each has their own regulations in regards to what can and cannot be worn on their uniforms.

Generally, most States allow for the wear of other States awards and decorations on their uniforms.

Check your State's uniform and/or award regulation for the correct answer.

If you go on Title 10 Active duty, it comes off...

friendly reminder.

quote:

Originally posted by BronzeGoat:
That's actually SQI "E", right up there with "X", "V", "P", and "S". It's funny they will recognize the military mountaineer with an SQI like some of the other cool schools, but not with the badge. On a side note, the NWTC cadre wear the Army's cold weather fatigue uniform--well, they wear the wool shirt, anyway, totally out of regulation to boot, but they're special.

Anyway, the cadre that have graduated one or both phases of the course--never found out which--wear the mountain tab on the front of their PC, which they wear in garrison because, again, they're special. That's two parts sarcasm, one part jealousy.

I'm right there with you on the sarcasm/jealousy thing. All NWTC cadre wear the mountain tab over the rank on old school OD PCs (at least that was my observation). The wool shirts (itchy-scratchies) are worn out of tradition. The woodland pattern field-pants I'm pretty sure are just to make them look more special. It's been a while since I attended a class there and they may have switched it up since then, not really sure.

I had the priviledge of attending both CWLC and BMC through NWTC here in Alaska and did get the "E" SQI. ABSOLUTELY AMAZING COURSES! I don't know about VT - mabe it gets down to minus40ish degrees F for their winter classes too... :-P Both courses were 2 weeks, but CWLC often gets cut short if they dont have enough snow on the slopes to do the full ski program. In the summer we rucked straight up those blasted ski hills. Temperate ACU boots worked great for me. Only 1 blister the whole time.

They made mention of the NG badge to the extent that it exists and is a NG badge, but other than forums like this I haven't heard anything concerete about getting the ram's head approved for Active Army Soldiers with the mountain SQI. I wish it would. It's pretty distinctive to have the identifier as even Soldiers who are stationed up here have a tough time getting to both schools. I think a pile of slots for BMC get filled by West Point cadets - about half of my class was at least.

Where can I find documention for authorization to wear? I have graduated both courses about 2 years ago. I am a PA Guardsman. Not sure on how to look up state recognized awards and whether or not my state will allow other state awards. thanks.

Different States administer their regulations differently. Does Pennsylvania have a PAARNG Regulation 600-8-22 or similar publication? If not it is a question for the one that sets the State's National Guard uniform: the State Sergeant Major (via your 1st line leader - 1SG - CSM of course).

Ira Green is now selling the Ram's Head Device right on their website. Look under Army Badges.

The Sta-Black version is $11.30. Yikes.

Anyone herd any rumors about this ever becoming a DA approved device?

Completed summer phase in 2002 while in KYARNG.

I am currently in the national guard and have two guys in my infantry company that have recieved the device. i will take a pic at drill and post it on this discussion as soon as i can so people can see it.

There has been quite a lot of discussion as to whether the new course is a good or bad thing. Bottom line is TRADOC made the change, the schoolhouse had to conform, and now more basically trained military mountaineers are being produced while we are still fighting in Afghanistan. You will still learn a ton in one two week phase and if thats not enough for you go back for the Advanced Climber course or their other "specialty" courses.

It also needs to be said that the school doesnt mean much unless the graduates practice those skills and are allowed to teach them to other soldiers, which in almost any unit other than 3-172 IN simply does not happen (SF and 75th excluded).

Its a great school and it opens people's eyes to how a military school can, and in my opinion, should be run. If you are not a mature, physically fit, mentally tough, and moderately intelligent person you probably wont make it through.

As far as wearing the rams head...I've been in 3-172 IN for a bit now, every once and a while a CSM or 1SG not in the know will get a hair across his #$% and grill you about it when you have it on outside of VT, NH, or ME. Usually about the time when you tell them you can wear a badge but they cannot...but even at most AD posts and schools people are more interested in the school, the 86th BDE patch with the mountain tab (because only 10th MTN wears a MTN tab right?), and rams head device than anything else because they have never heard about it.

If you want to do something interesting in the ARNG world, and you live in New England, I highly suggest checking out the 3-172 IN. There are rifle companies in VT, NH, and ME and HQ and HHC are in VT.

Hey all,

I participated in the pilot 2 week Winter course in 2009. It was still good training, but different in a way. I did the summer phase in 2008 and that was a really challenging course, and from what I heard the winter phase was supposed to be easier (Since before there were less systems to test on in the winter) However now they tested systems in the winter phase as well. I did notice they added more time to the tests and don't test other things, but maybe they re-adjusted it back to the older standards after 2009.

The Vermont Mountain Warfare School, in my opinion, is better than the Active Duty counter part. You receive more equipment per mountain buddy team then you do as a Squad at the Northern Warfare Training Center. I went to the Norther Warfare Training Center's Basic Mountaineer Course a month after doing the summer phase in Vermont. While Alaska has much better terrain and training areas to offer, the Vermont School house seemed to have better funding and their instructors are National Guard- meaning they don't rotate out every few years like an active duty e-6 does in TRADOC. The instructors at the mountain warfare school in Vermont obviously had more experience and had been there for a while.

Either way both courses had a lot to offer, not to shun one against the other, but I was most impressed by the level of skill Vermont had to offer.

I have yet to be able to attend Assault Climber at either place, but hopefully one day I will be able to see what that is all about.