Anybody care to justify the decision to retread the Skids one final time?

I think Bell pulled a fast one on the Corps and blew smoke up their crack by saying they could (re)build them cheaper than what new Apache's would have cost.

With the British putting their WAH-64D's on ships and EADS successfully testing their Tiger attack helicopters, is anyone still trying to say the AH-64D could not serve the Marines on their ships just as well?

quote:

Taiwan Chooses Boeing Over Bell In US$1.5 Billion Helicopter Deal

July 10, 2007: 06:47 AM EST


TAIPEI (AP)--Taiwan's army wants to buy 30 Boeing Co. (BA) Apache attack helicopters from the United States , an official said Tuesday, in a deal that will almost certainly roil rival China .

Col. Dai Kuang-chao said the military opted for the Boeing AH-64D Apache Longbow over Bell's AH-1Z Cobra because it better suited the army's needs.

"This fits our military requirements," Dai said. "The Cobra may be a bit newer but it is still not battle proven."

The deal, worth US$1.5 billion , still needs the approval of the U.S. government and Taiwan's Legislature.

China can be expected to pressure Washington not to approve the sale, in line with its efforts to prevent Taiwan from procuring sophisticated military equipment from abroad.

The two sides split amid civil war in 1949, and China continues to view Taiwan as part of its territory.

It has threatened to attack if the democratic island makes its de facto independence permanent.

Last month Taiwan's Legislature approved the purchase of American submarine hunting aircraft, a small part of a US$15 billion package that also includes American diesel submarines and the third generation of the Patriot anti-missile system.

President Chen Shui-bian's Democratic Progressive Party has been pushing for acquisition of the submarines and the Patriots too, but the opposition has used its narrow legislative majority to block the purchases on the grounds they would propel Taiwan into a no-win arms race with the mainland.

Chen and the DPP counter that Taiwan must rapidly strengthen its military to combat a decade-long Chinese arms buildup, and so safeguard the island from possible attack.

Bell Helicopter is a unit of Textron Inc. (TXT).

(END) Dow Jones Newswires
07-10-07 0647ET
Copyright (c) 2007 Dow Jones & Company, Inc.

I don't understand why the Corps is keeping the Hueys and the Cobras. They are good birds but they're still a 40 year old design. It's time to retire them. The Blackhawk and the Apache have proven themselves either go to those or the Corps should have built their own newer helicopters.

I believe the Blackhawk and Apache would take up too much space on the boat. I meant the 53s are already huge. That is my guess.

I'm really tired of every one talking about the AH-64 as beeing the best thing since Igor Sikorsky built the first succesful helicopter. So here's the best argument against the AH-64 that I can think of. Here is a list of AH-64s and AH-1s that have crashed in Iraq. From my count that's a 3:1 majority of crashed AH-64s to AH-1s. These are aircraft that where downed because of accidents and were also shot down. Also on the main link the info is near the bottom.

AH-64s downed in Iraq

2003
March 23, 2003
March 28, 2003
March 31, 2003
August 14, 2003
October 30, 2003
October 30, 2003

December 11, 2003
2004
January 13, 2004
April 11, 2004
September 23, 2004
December 9, 2004
2005
June 27, 2005
July 19, 2005
August 12, 2005
December 26, 2005
2006
January 16, 2006
April 1, 2006
July 13, 2006
November 6,2006
2007

January 28, 2007
February 2, 2007
August 10, 2007

AH-1s downed in Iraq

2003
April 5, 2003
April 14, 2003
2004
March 30, 2004
June 24, 2004
November 11, 2004
2005
November 2, 2005
2006
May 27, 2006
2007
Nothing so far.

This is the reason the USMC should not use the AH-64.

quote:

Originally posted by shylano:
I believe the Blackhawk and Apache would take up too much space on the boat. I meant the 53s are already huge. That is my guess.

Nope, not the reason.

quote:

Originally posted by Ethan3391:
I'm really tired of every one talking about the AH-64 as beeing the best thing since Igor Sikorsky built the first succesful helicopter. So here's the best argument against the AH-64 that I can think of. Here is a list of AH-64s and AH-1s that have crashed in Iraq. From my count that's a 3:1 majority of crashed AH-64s to AH-1s. These are aircraft that where downed because of accidents and were also shot down. Also on the main link the info is near the bottom.

Well Jeremy whenever you get close enough to touch either a Cobra or an Apache and see them operate first hand, then why don't you come back here and tell us all what you think at that point in time?!

The fact that the USA has like 3:1 as many Apaches in theater as do the Marine Cobras is a significant factor in ivalidating the entire basis of your argument.

quote:

Originally posted by AirKnight:

quote:

Originally posted by Ethan3391:
I'm really tired of every one talking about the AH-64 as beeing the best thing since Igor Sikorsky built the first succesful helicopter. So here's the best argument against the AH-64 that I can think of. Here is a list of AH-64s and AH-1s that have crashed in Iraq. From my count that's a 3:1 majority of crashed AH-64s to AH-1s. These are aircraft that where downed because of accidents and were also shot down. Also on the main link the info is near the bottom.

Well Jeremy whenever you get close enough to touch either a Cobra or an Apache and see them operate first hand, then why don't you come back here and tell us all what you think at that point in time?!

The fact that the USA has like 3:1 as many Apaches in theater as do the Marine Cobras is a significant factor in ivalidating the entire basis of your argument.

I like the way you did that, useing my first name, kind of like your triing to say "I read your profile stupid so don't try anything".

So, let me take a go at that, Ryan, if your profile was correct your bird was a CH-46, not an AH-1 or AH-64. when was the last time you were within earshot of an Apache they fly over my house all the time. So it lookes like I'm the resident expert since the only thing you have on me is that you touched an AH-1, if even that.

Oh and on the 3:1 majority thing, apperantly your excuse is that the only reason the AH-64 is crashing more often is that there are more targets in the sky, well that might be possible except for the fact that I said that they also included accidents. So would you please explain that.

quote:

Originally posted by Ethan3391:
I like the way you did that, useing my first name, kind of like your triing to say "I read your profile stupid so don't try anything".

So, let me take a go at that, Ryan, if your profile was correct your bird was a CH-46, not an AH-1 or AH-64. when was the last time you were within earshot of an Apache they fly over my house all the time. So it lookes like I'm the resident expert since the only thing you have on me is that you touched an AH-1, if even that.

Oh and on the 3:1 majority thing, apperantly your excuse is that the only reason the AH-64 is crashing more often is that there are more targets in the sky, well that might be possible except for the fact that I said that they also included accidents. So would you please explain that.

Hey Vannah, buy a fu¢king clue - you watch them fly over your house and thereby that makes you the resident expert on the aircraft?

Have you even taken the ASVAB yet because you do know that you have to score high enough on it just to qualify for an MOS in the Air Wing, don't you?

quote:

Originally posted by AirKnight:

quote:

Originally posted by Ethan3391:
I like the way you did that, useing my first name, kind of like your triing to say "I read your profile stupid so don't try anything".

So, let me take a go at that, Ryan, if your profile was correct your bird was a CH-46, not an AH-1 or AH-64. when was the last time you were within earshot of an Apache they fly over my house all the time. So it lookes like I'm the resident expert since the only thing you have on me is that you touched an AH-1, if even that.

Oh and on the 3:1 majority thing, apperantly your excuse is that the only reason the AH-64 is crashing more often is that there are more targets in the sky, well that might be possible except for the fact that I said that they also included accidents. So would you please explain that.

Hey Vannah, buy a fu¢king clue - you watch them fly over your house and thereby that makes you the resident expert on the aircraft?

Have you even taken the ASVAB yet because you do know that you have to score high enough on it just to qualify for an MOS in the Air Wing, don't you?

Yes, that makes me an expert on the sound of an AH-64, just like your experience in carressing an AH-1 makes you an expert on that. By the way you should tell me all about haveing one of the CH-46s that you worked on flying with a group of AH-1s, and don't forget to include the proper procedures of carressing an AH-1.

Also, it's funny that you have a speech degree and the only word you could think up was... ****? Dude, you really need to work on your vocabulary.

As far as the ASVAB goes, no, I have not taken it yet. When I do, however, I'll be sure and tell you just what my scores are, seeing as how you seem to be sooo conserned about it.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Ethan3391,

quote:

Originally posted by Ethan3391:

I assure you that my response was tame by even the UN'est of standards to that of what your ignorance will garner you should you actually grow a pair and decide to try and become a Marine.

It could have been an interesting discussion but your too arrogant about a subject you know nothing about and you're not even a poolie in the DEP yet! You know what's wrong with the PlayStation-playing youth of today such as yourself, your parents and teachers told you that you were "special" and over-inflated your ego one too many times; trust me, even your recruiters let alone your DI's will have a field day with your dumbass.

Do you know anything about the Corps that you are "considering" to join?

Playstation, when did I get a Playstation? Well, anyhow this is not about me playing Playstation games or my parents and teachers calling me special. Which, by the way my teachers are across a tv screen in Greenville Sc. so they don't even really know who I am. Or weather I could make it in the Marine Corps. What this is about is our experience or lack of, with the AH-1 and AH-64. So get on with it what is your experience with either aircraft seeing as how you seem to expect me to have to have experience with them before I can comment on either of the aircraft. And before you start into your old USMC days let me remind you that that was a CH-46 not an AH-1 or AH-64. So let's here it, when did you work on or fly either aircraft.

quote:

Originally posted by Ethan3391:
Which, by the way my teachers are across a tv screen in Greenville Sc. so they don't even really know who I am. Or weather I could make it in the Marine Corps.

God Bless America, they all must be so proud of you.

quote:

Originally posted by Ethan3391:
What this is about is our experience or lack of, with the AH-1 and AH-64. So get on with it what is your experience with either aircraft seeing as how you seem to expect me to have to have experience with them before I can comment on either of the aircraft. And before you start into your old USMC days let me remind you that that was a CH-46 not an AH-1 or AH-64. So let's here it, when did you work on or fly either aircraft.

You're the FNG here and quite frankly you're just not worth the time.

quote:

Originally posted by AirKnight:

The fact that the USA has like 3:1 as many Apaches in theater as do the Marine Cobras is a significant factor in ivalidating the entire basis of your argument.

OK, First let me say that while I'm only a visitor in your neck of the wood, I do know when to step lightly. I've only been flying the Longbow for less than 4 months now (still in training actually), this seems to be the logical answer as to why 3x as many 64's have been downed. Obviously maintenance is an issue, I think it's 5 hours of maintenance to every one hour of flight.

I don't know why the USMC haven't gone to the 64's and from what I'm hearing the UH-1Z is a whole lot better than the AH-64D anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by NunezFlyer:

quote:

Originally posted by AirKnight:

The fact that the USA has like 3:1 as many Apaches in theater as do the Marine Cobras is a significant factor in ivalidating the entire basis of your argument.

OK, First let me say that while I'm only a visitor in your neck of the wood, I do know when to step lightly. I've only been flying the Longbow for less than 4 months now (still in training actually), this seems to be the logical answer as to why 3x as many 64's have been downed. Obviously maintenance is an issue, I think it's 5 hours of maintenance to every one hour of flight.

I don't know why the USMC haven't gone to the 64's and from what I'm hearing the UH-1Z is a whole lot better than the AH-64D anyway.

Exactly, it's a fundamental aspect of logical statistics. If you really wanted to get into the topic you would take into account varibility of the missions on average that each airframe is being tasked with as even that is often not the same in terms of areas of operation and specific mission assignments.

As for maintenance on helicopters, 5 hours per every 1 hour of flight time would be on the very low side, as the helicopters age even the modern Apaches will take anywhere from 10-15+ hours of maintenance for every 1 hour of flight time, and even that is much better than the Apache was around Desert Storm when they were still trying to work out the bugs.

As for the AH-1Z, Bell has promised a lot of things and I'll tell you what, as of late between the V-22, H-1 Upgrades, and the USA's ARH program, I'm losing a lot of faith in their ability to deliever as promised. The AH-1Z is claimed by Bell to have an ever more modern pit than the now defunct RAH-66 Commanche was going to have, and so if you've ever seen an AH-1W pit it's damn near akin to going from a 19" black and white television to a High Definition 46" 1080p LCD television. Not quite that exaggerated, but pretty damned close.

The AH-1W was just simply unable to compete with the AH-64D and while the Corps has high hopes for the AH-1Z, it's got a long, long, long, (and did I mention long?) way to go to even begin to hold the Longbow Apache's jockstrap.

Maybe someday - just not today, tommorow, next week, next month, or even next year; but hey, there is always hope and one must remain optimistic in times like these!

Good luck and Conragts on the WO Apache gig, Nunez; WOFT is an outstanding opportunity and one that I think the Marines would benefit from tremendously as well given that they all the more really view their WO's as equal (if not with more so respect given their prior enlisted experience) to the regular officers.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: AirKnight,

quote:

Originally posted by NunezFlyer:
I don't know why the USMC haven't gone to the 64's and from what I'm hearing the UH-1Z is a whole lot better than the AH-64D anyway.

Nunez, I was just wondering, assuming your UH should be an AH, was that a mixup or a political statement? Again, just wondering.

quote:

Originally posted by Ethan3391:

quote:

Originally posted by NunezFlyer:
I don't know why the USMC haven't gone to the 64's and from what I'm hearing the UH-1Z is a whole lot better than the AH-64D anyway.

Nunez, I was just wondering, assuming your UH should be an AH, was that a mixup or a political statement? Again, just wondering.

Good catch, didn't really mean to put a UH instead of an AH.

AirKnight,

From what I'm hearing from the Kiowa folks, they all think that the ARH is a NO-GO. Like you said, they've been promised the world but have only received a glimps of it. Seems like the Army will start looking at European helicopter manufactures from now on. Sikorsky/Eurocopter seemed to deliver on what they promised since the first unit with the new medivac platform is actually starting to receive their new gig.

quote:

Originally posted by NunezFlyer:

quote:

Originally posted by Ethan3391:

quote:

Originally posted by NunezFlyer:
I don't know why the USMC haven't gone to the 64's and from what I'm hearing the UH-1Z is a whole lot better than the AH-64D anyway.

Nunez, I was just wondering, assuming your UH should be an AH, was that a mixup or a political statement? Again, just wondering.

Good catch, didn't really mean to put a UH instead of an AH.

I thought my question would come across more clearly than it did. Sorry. I was refferring to the phrase where you said that you heard that the AH-1Z was better than the AH-64, because you also said that you didn't know why the Marine Corps hadn't gone with the AH-64 yet.

Well what I meant was since the AH-1Z is a lot better (or from what I'm hearing anyways) why would the USMC go to the 64. Again, I'm only hearing this from prior Marines that still think they're in the Corp.

My personal opinion, and keep in mind it's a biased opinion, the Apache is the best combat helicopter in the Armed Services. It's been proven time and time again with the Israelis and their never-ending conflict. Not to mention the Brits praise the AH-64D (AH-1D in the UK) in their deployment to Afghanistan.

Again, just my 2 cents.

Ethan the reason why I said the Marines should have gone to the Apache is this. The Marines are spending a ton of money and time (which they don't have alot of) on a program that needs to be tested and hasn't yet been proven or tried. It would have saved them alot of time and money to just go with the Apache. After all after all this time and money spent the best the AH-1Z can hope to accomplish is to be as good as the Longbow. They have the same engines and the same technology. The only difference is that the Longbow has all the bugs worked out and is ready to go, where the AH1-Z is far from ready to go. I've seen both operate in Iraq (AH-1W that is) and they are both deadly. However, the Apache can go faster, carry a heavier payload and can stay on station alot longer. It also has better avionics. As far as the Huey vs the Blackhawk goes; I've ridden in both of them and (this will piss alot of people off on here) flying in a Huey is like riding in a Mustang with a V-6 where a Blackhawk is like riding in a Shelby Cobra Mustang. Alot more manueverable and alot faster. Better performance all around. There again the best you can hope for with the new Huey is the performance comparable to that of a Blackhawk. IMHO the Marine Corps is wasting time and money just so they can have their own kind of helicopter.

quote:

Originally posted by AirKnight:

quote:

Originally posted by Ethan3391:
Which, by the way my teachers are across a tv screen in Greenville Sc. so they don't even really know who I am. Or weather I could make it in the Marine Corps.

God Bless America, they all must be so proud of you.

quote:

Originally posted by Ethan3391:
What this is about is our experience or lack of, with the AH-1 and AH-64. So get on with it what is your experience with either aircraft seeing as how you seem to expect me to have to have experience with them before I can comment on either of the aircraft. And before you start into your old USMC days let me remind you that that was a CH-46 not an AH-1 or AH-64. So let's here it, when did you work on or fly either aircraft.

You're the FNG here and quite frankly you're just not worth the time.

Ethan, don't take it personally, he treats just about everyone who disagrees with him like that at first.