quote:

Originally posted by JPYH08:
AirKnight,go read here,


http://pma276public.navair.navy.mil/pma276public/faq.asp

S/F JP YH08 "Dimmer'/Peach Bush. EG-12"

quote:

Why not buy other, newer helicopters, or even new Hueys and Cobras?
Reusing 60 percent of the UH-1 and 30 percent of the AH-1 saves us millions of dollars per aircraft in production costs. Also, reusing tooling, as well as government-furnished equipment, also reduces the cost of the program.

Various configurations of the AH-64D Apache, RAH-66D Comanche and the MH-60S Sea Hawk were also considered, comparing cruise speed, mission radius, maximum payload, weapons stations, shipboard compatibility, maneuverability, unit cost and spotting factor.

Again, multiple analyses* of the alternatives concluded that the H-1 Upgrade Program provides the Marine Corps with the needed capabilities to meet operational requirements for the lowest cost.

Call me a skeptic but I believe this all but proves that the decision to rebuild the H-1 was purely a fiscal one as opposed to what the best product for the Corps would have been.

While I could be wrong here, but I’d like to see the numbers they used to reach their conclusions because I am rather confident that Boeing AH-64 and Sikorsky’s MH-60S would have been more than happy to dispute any performance issues that Bell may have used to sway the Corps their way.

And why no competition between Boeing, Sikorsky, and Bell for the program? Why just take Bell’s word and not let the defense contractor’s work for the award?

Conclusion: Either the V-22 sucked all the money away from the Corps’ attack helicopter or Bell was thrown a huge gift their way which is all the more amazing since they have already been given a lifetime gift with the continual push and subsequent funding of the V-22 Osprey program.

quote:

Call me a skeptic but

Yea, your still a "Marine"



S/F JP

It's nice to see that our friends in the feild are continueing to get upgraded and new machines to work with.
When I was in the corp, We still had AH-1J's. 18 to be exact. Most awaiting return to rework. many of them had old patches or steel can tops as patches from Vietnams war wounds..
Of course, there were AH-1t's available coming from Bell's rework facility, but they were slow in the coming.
Fortunately, I was standing on the flight line when the first 2 AH-1t Tow were delivered from Bell.
When I left the corp. Hma 169 haad about 6 from Bell. Two were painted desert, 4 were jungle green. I remember sending two off to china lake for testing. they wanted them to shoot side winders along with the the tow.

God I feel old now.

quote:

God I feel old now.

I was in HMA-169 when they still had some of the old AH-1Gs! The last 4 left in the Spring of 1976, leaving us with 18 new AH-1Js. Later when I was with 369 (1977-78) we had a mix of old and new aircraft, while 169 had a mix of Js and Ts. The four squadrons there at the time (HMA-169, HMA-369, HML-267, and VMO-2) belonged to Detachment, MAG-16.

quote:

Later when I was with 369 (1977-78) we had a mix of old and new aircraft,

Was the little GSE shack still next to the flightline at HMA 369 in 77?
That was my home away from home back in 74-75

HMA-369 had relocated to Pendleton in Apr 77 when I joined it. They took about 75 of us from 169 plus some "Hamsters" to form Det A., which went back to Oki (TAD to HML-367)in June. 367 was based at Hamby Field so the only times I was at Futema were check in/out and Group formation for 4th of July.

US Navy still concerned about Bell H-1 helicopter

Reuters | Feb 27, 2007
solurce link

WASHINGTON: A top US Navy official said on Monday he remains concerned about schedule delays on an $8 billion contract with Textron Inc.'s Bell Helicopter unit to upgrade the Marine Corps's H-1 helicopters, although he said ultimately the company would "get there."

William Balderson, deputy assistant secretary of the Navy for air programs, told reporters he met with Bell Helicopter chief executive Richard Millman for 45 minutes on Monday, their third meeting since Millman was named to the job last month.

"The H-1 program is not back on track and we're not satisfied with the schedule right now," Balderson said, noting the company now appeared to be missing by months a production schedule that had already been revised last year.

But he said Millman's appointment and other efforts being undertaken by the company in cooperation with the Navy gave him confidence Bell's performance would improve.

"We believe they're on a path to recovery. The real question now is how quickly they can recover," he said. "We still believe that they're going to get there."

Balderson said Millman was reviewing production issues at Bell's Fort Worth, Texas plant and recognized the need to develop better business processes there, rather than focus on production issues on an ad hoc basis.

"We need to be able to do this routinely and at rate," Balderson said.

He said Millman had promised to give Navy officials a long- term delivery schedule for the H-1 upgraded aircraft within the next two weeks.

He said the Navy had few options if Bell did not step up production rates, given the age of the existing fleet.

If the Corps only stuck half as much money into an upgraded attack helo versus a measly medium lift platform (V-22), they could have right now on the ramp and in the sand in Iraq a modern AH-64 deriative attack helo, MH-60S' which are far more capable than the UH-1Y will ever be, and they could even have H-92 or H-101's already flying and PAID for for just the amount of money spent on the V-22 alone.

The H-1 upgrade program has pork belly written all over it - order a friggin Italian Mangusta if you have to!

Really, there are no really plausible reasons why we could not just take a new build AH-64D and put that bad boy on an LHD; CG issues my @ss!

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1177212/M/

The Brits have no problem using an Apache on a ship!


250 AH-64D+ and 250 MH-60S - what's so hard about that? If the Corps is going to make illogical weapon purchases and then say the numbers told them to do it, then how about letting every one else looking at those numbers, too? How come there was no runoff between Bell, Boeing, and Sikorsky - why does the Corps always have to get the retread junk that they way overpaid for?

...[related]...



Turk Army Eyes Stopgap Purchase
May Seek U.S. Helicopters While Waiting for A-129

April 9, 2007
source link

A lengthy delivery schedule offered by AgustaWestland, winner of Turkey’s multibillion-dollar attack helicopter tender, is expected to prompt the Army to seek about 10 U.S.-made helicopter gunships to fill a capability gap, officials and analysts said.

Defense Minister Vecdi Gonul announced March 30 that Turkey had selected AgustaWestland, Cascina Costa, Italy, maker of the A-129 Mangusta International, over South Africa’s Denel of Pretoria, maker of the CSH-2 Rooivalk, to jointly manufacture the helicopters with local partners.

Gonul gave the program’s cost at nearly $2.7 billion, but procurement officials later said the figure was for 90 platforms. A contract to cover a first batch of 30 helicopters is expected to be worth around $1.2 billion. The planned Turkish attack helicopter has been dubbed T-129.

But a key issue is the gunships’ delivery schedule, which does not fit into Army modernization plans.

“The company offers to deliver the first helicopter five years after the contract’s signing,” said one procurement official. This means that if the contract is signed next year, the first gunship could be operational only in 2013.

The attack helicopter program, originally launched in 1995, already has faced huge delays, and the Army views the choppers as an urgent requirement, military officials and analysts said. The Army operates seven AH-1W Super Cobras, manufactured by Bell Helicopter Textron, Fort Worth, Texas, and some earlier Cobra versions.

“At a time when worrying developments in the Middle East are seen to be threatening Turkey, the military wants to add new gunships into its inventory as soon as possible,” one Ankara-based defense analyst said. “Many officers in the Army favor Boeing’s [AH-64D] Apache [Longbow] as the world’s most advanced attack helicopter, which is also combat-proven. The Army believes it needs at least 10 choppers in the shorter term, and the military already may have launched an effort to see if a purchase could be possible.”

A top official with the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM), Turkey’s procurement agency, did not rule out the acquisition of some U.S.-made helicopters as a stopgap solution until the planned T-129s arrive.

One U.S. industry source familiar with Turkey’s gunship program said that some Turkish officials recently asked for price and availability information on attack helicopters from the United States.

Top U.S. attack helicopter manufacturers, including Chicago-based Boeing and Bell Helicopter, maker of the U.S. Marine Command’s AH-1Z, had failed to bid for SSM’s gunship tender because of a dispute over the Turkish procurement agency’s terms.

But Boeing has had a long-standing offer to sell the Apache through the U.S. government’s Foreign Military Sales process.

“Boeing had informed both the Turkish procurement agency and senior Turkish military staff that the Apache ... remains available to Turkey under a Foreign Military Sales case,” company spokesman Hal Klopper said.

Bell said it had not been approached by Turkey.

“Bell has no request to provide AH-1Zs to the Turkish military at this time, nor have we been asked for a proposal,” said Mike Cox, Bell Helicopter’s vice president for communications.

The H-1 upgrade program is little short of a government subsidy - put the AH-64D in the Wing with the USMC or even buy those same Italian Mangusta's and supplement them with MH-60S!

Bell Updates Status of its Government Programs

quote:

The remanufacturing of older Cobra's and Huey's into new, updated AH-1Z and UH-1Y's is making good progress. All the current Lot aircraft are in production and deliveries should hold to the current schedule. To date Bell has delivered 3 Huey's and 1 Zulu, ultimately Bell will produce 100 Hueys and 180 Zulus.

Very interesting info on the UH-1 "snake". I was an Ordnance instructor at FREST before I retired teaching Cobra/Huey Weapons Systems.
Great info.
S/F

Reopened per Sgt Schlappy request.....

Thanks Tom.



Bell Delivers Three H-1 Aircraft in February

(Source: Bell Helicopter; dated March 3, web-posted March 5, 2008)

FORT WORTH, TEXAS --- Bell Helicopter, a Textron Inc. company, this week delivered another H-1 Upgrade aircraft and brought February's delivery total to three for the program.

The third aircraft, a UH-1Y utility helicopter, was accepted by the U.S. Marine Corps on Feb. 26, 2008. Final assembly of the aircraft was completed at Bell's Military Aircraft Assembly Center in Amarillo, Texas.

Two other H-1 aircraft have been delivered so far this year. An AH-1Z attack aircraft was delivered on Feb. 8, and another UH-1Y was delivered Feb. 13. In addition to these three H-1s, Bell's Amarillo facility also completed and delivered two V-22 Osprey aircraft in February.

The H-1 program, which includes both the utility Yankee and the attack Zulu models, began Phase II of its Operational Evaluation on Feb. 13. A full-rate production decision is expected later this year.

The H-1 Upgrade Program currently calls for a total of 100 UH-1Y and 180 AH-1Z aircraft.

HMLA/T 303 has 5 UH-1Y's at last count

More Upgraded H-1s for Marines

Aviation Week & Space Technology
May 5, 2008

Planned procurement of upgraded Bell AH-1Z attack and UH-1Y ultility helicopters will be increased to 349 from 280 aircraft to support the USMC's "Grow the Force" initiative. The inventory objective has been increased to 123 "Yankees" and 226 "Zulus", up from 100 and 180. The increase is possible because the USMC is moving to new-build airframes for both rotocraft types.

Guys do you think that the UH-1Y is a good choice for the modern combat that we are facing today or should the corps sway towards the UH-60M or Seahwawk?

Lockheed Wins Order for AH-1Z Cobra Sight

(Source: Lockheed Martin; issued July 8, 2008)

ORLANDO, Fla. --- The Naval Surface Warfare Center has awarded Lockheed Martin a $50 million production contract for the Target Sight System (TSS), a new fire control system for the U.S. Marine Corps' AH-1Z Cobra attack helicopter. As the TSS developer, Lockheed Martin has begun producing 16 systems at facilities in Ocala and Orlando, FL. This first buy of TSS is scheduled for completion in 2010.

The TSS will add to the capability of the U.S. Marine Cobra fleet to protect the maritime battlespace, defeat armored seaborne and land threats, and provide improved surveillance for better situational awareness.

"We are pleased to provide Marine Corps aviation with a state-of-the-art precision system that will protect Warfighters and coalition forces," said Joseph Butera, Turreted Systems program manager at Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control. "Long-range targeting and surveillance will enable aircrews to control engagements at safe standoff ranges, with a large increase in lethality and survivability."

Designated the AN/AAQ-30, the TSS provides electro-optical and forward-looking infrared (FLIR) multi-sensors for state-of-the-art targeting of missiles and gunfire at long ranges. The system provides superior capability to identify and laser-designate targets at maximum HELLFIRE missile range, increasing the Cobra's targeting capabilities and reducing cockpit workload. In a counter-insurgency role, the versatile system also provides day/night intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance.

The TSS consists of a large-aperture mid-wave sensor, color TV, a laser designator and rangefinder with eye-safe mode. An on-gimbal inertial measurement unit is integrated into a highly-stabilized turret to ensure rock-steady targeting. Advanced image processing algorithms improve long-range recognition and identification.

The lightweight TSS is also available for integration on other fixed- and rotary-wing platforms. A similar turreted system, the Gunship Multispectral Sensor, provides fire control for the AC-130 gunship.

New Huey helicopter cleared for deployment

By Bryan Mitchell - Staff writer
Posted : Wednesday Aug 27, 2008 15:52:32 EDT

Marines will soon fly in the first newly engineered Huey helicopter the Corps has introduced in more than 35 years.

Known as the UH-1Y, the helicopter can fly faster, farther and ferry more troops and gear than older models, offering commanders more options when planning operations, according to program manager Col. Keith Burkholz. It will enhance the Corps’ ability to perform reconnaissance, provide secure escorts, scramble quick-reaction teams and place troops in hostile territory.

“You can carry eight combat troops with 250 pounds of gear each plus a crew of four, a full load of gas and suppressive weapons,” Burkholz said. “If you loaded that configuration into a Huey today, it would not physically be able to take off.”

The $20 million UH-1Y gained initial operating capability Aug. 8 after more than a year of testing at Naval Air Station Patuxent River, Md. The helicopter is built by Texas-based Bell Helicopter-Textron, which also manufactures the tilt-rotor V-22 Osprey.

Designed in tandem
The new Huey was designed alongside a new Marine attack helicopter: the AH-1Z, also known as the Super Cobra.

They were designed with roughly 84 percent interoperability, meaning many of the primary parts and components can be swapped between the two aircraft. That will yield savings in maintenance and logistics.

Both new aircraft boast modern avionics systems, but the Huey has better range and lift capability.

“The Yankee [Huey] can take twice the payload, twice the range, and the Zulu [Cobra] can either travel twice the range with the same payload or carry twice the payload with the same range,” compared with current models, Burkholz said.

Across the fleet, there are 12 new Hueys being tested, trained on or preparing for deployment. A contingent is in Southern California preparing for a January deployment with the 13th Marine Expeditionary Unit aboard the amphibious assault ship Boxer.

Burkholz could not specify where the MEU would deploy. But “we routinely have MEUs supporting operations in Iraq or Afghanistan,” he said.

While the Osprey is expected to remain the Corps’ workhorse for the next 30 years, the Huey will serve as a utility helicopter designed to maneuver around tighter spaces and land on smaller ships at sea, Burkholz said.

And though it’s not designed for special operations, it will be rated for those missions, he said.

The Corps is expected to acquire 123 Huey helicopters over the next eight years.

HML/AT-303 had 3 UH-1Ys and a AH-1Z at the Miramar air show on Saturday.