My points:

1: Allah is actually an Arabic conjunction if you will, from the Arabic Al "The" and illah "god". In Arabic, you leave out the "i" when writing in English or in pronunciation but when written you can see the kasra, damma, etc. but let's not get into an Arabic lesson.

In English, "The" when used next to another word, the former insinuates specificity to the latter. So the noun in this case is god. So in English if we said "the god" we would be indicating a specific "god"

In Arabic, the rule is also true. The Arabic "Al" is the definitive verb to add specificity to the latter. "illah" is the Arabic word for "god" so naturally the Arabic Al-illah or Allah, means "The God" Case in point. My 3yr olds name is Kareem, which means "noble, handsome, kind" in English. In Islam, it's also a name of God, but only when you add the "the" before it as in Al-Kareem.

2: "God" in English as well as Arabic means a deity, without the "the" or "al" it can mean any deity than many believes in. It can be Zeus, Odin, or the Abrahamic, but god is the same word used in English and Arabic. It's only specific in English when used in the known context of the utterer's chosen beliefs. If I'm Christian, Hindu, or Pagan when I utter the word "god" I could be saying the same word, but meaning different things in context. The same rules are for Arabic but you have to have that "al" in order to be specific.

3. Now that we have a lesson in linguistics, we should know that Allah means "The God" in Arabic. But the question remains "which god?". Now there are many rumors and lies out there from Robert Morey and others which I could easily debunk that is often cited for propaganda to make "allah" a "moon god" but, I need not go that deep. The point is how does one determine the all important "which god?" I believe and this is of course debatable, but most agree that the best way to know what one is talking about is to which degree they admit, state, or say in any other form. So it's one thing to say Muslims worship a different "god" because the language is different and the name is different, but the most sacred and holy book to the Muslims is quite clear:
قُولُواْ آمَنَّا بِاللّهِ وَمَآ أُنزِلَ إِلَيْنَا وَمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَى إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالأسْبَاطِ وَمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَى وَعِيسَى وَمَا أُوتِيَ النَّبِيُّونَ مِن رَّبِّهِمْ لاَ نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ

2:136 Say: "We believe in God, and in that which has been bestowed from on high upon us, and that which has been bestowed upon Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and ,their descendants, and that which has been vouchsafed to Moses and Jesus; and that which has been vouchsafed to all the other prophets by their Sustainer: we make no distinction between any of them. And it is unto Him that we surrender ourselves."

So the Qur'an makes it clear that we specifically believe in the same God of the Bible. So the "the" before our "god" is The One mentioned in the other Abrahamic faiths.

In conclusion, Allah (Arabic) is The God (English) mentioned in the Tanakh, Bible, and yes the Qur'an. However, He is not Odin, Krishna, etc. As Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, Moses, Jesus, etc. (pbut) didn't believe in them.

It could be argued that the supreme being in any faith tradition, such as the Sky God that once was supreme in African animistic traditions, could be identified in Arabic as Allah, as Arabic speaking Jews and Christians refer to God as Allah. Any god that was limited in scope, however, would have to be deemed "illa" as one of God's most central attributes involve omnipotence.

quote:

Originally posted by sweetsuds:
It could be argued that the supreme being in any faith tradition, such as the Sky God that once was supreme in African animistic traditions, could be identified in Arabic as Allah, as Arabic speaking Jews and Christians refer to God as Allah. Any god that was limited in scope, however, would have to be deemed "illa" as one of God's most central attributes involve omnipotence.

Actually, "Allah" is even when used by Jews and Christians is specific. So "Allah" can't be used for polytheistic traditions without the specificity.

"The God" is always in context. Islam as you know, specifically says The God of Abraham (as).

quote:

Originally posted by Sgt_Salaam:

quote:

Originally posted by sweetsuds:
It could be argued that the supreme being in any faith tradition, such as the Sky God that once was supreme in African animistic traditions, could be identified in Arabic as Allah, as Arabic speaking Jews and Christians refer to God as Allah. Any god that was limited in scope, however, would have to be deemed "illa" as one of God's most central attributes involve omnipotence.

Actually, "Allah" is even when used by Jews and Christians is specific. So "Allah" can't be used for polytheistic traditions without the specificity.

"The God" is always in context. Islam as you know, specifically says The God of Abraham (as).

The use of the phrase "The God of Abraham" is a rhetorical device- it's used to connect the Abrahamic faiths with which 7th century Arabs would have been familiar. The God of Abraham is not tribal, as some early Muslims tried to assert. Allah is universal, which is why attempts to turn Islam into a tribal or closed faith failed so quickly.

quote:

The use of the phrase "The God of Abraham" is a rhetorical device- it's used to connect the Abrahamic faiths with which 7th century Arabs would have been familiar. The God of Abraham is not tribal, as some early Muslims tried to assert. Allah is universal, which is why attempts to turn Islam into a tribal or closed faith failed so quickly.

What's the debate?

So I win? Knew it. Robert Salaam Ali, my foot.

quote:

Originally posted by sweetsuds:
So I win? Knew it. Robert Salaam Ali, my foot.

That's Amir Ali to you! Tomorrow, I will be Sultan!

You attribute Allah to being the same God as the Christian God who in turn attribute their God to being the same God as the Jewish God.

The problem occurs when people disagree on what the qualifications are for a god to be tied to another god.

For instance, I am a Christian but I do not believe that some Christian sects actually worship the same God as I because by their holy scriptures they have redefined God into something He has made clear he is not. Just as some/many/most? Jews would say I clearly do not foloow the God of Abraham (though I claim to) because my faith has redefined Him into something not consistent with the original.

So my question is, How does Allah tie to the Christian God and in turn to the Jewish God. Is merely the claim that He is the God of Abraham sufficient enough for you or is there a series of historical ties (since the other faiths preceded Islam) that further strengthen the connection?

quote:

Originally posted by Silverbusa:
You attribute Allah to being the same God as the Christian God who in turn attribute their God to being the same God as the Jewish God.

The problem occurs when people disagree on what the qualifications are for a god to be tied to another god.

For instance, I am a Christian but I do not believe that some Christian sects actually worship the same God as I because by their holy scriptures they have redefined God into something He has made clear he is not. Just as some/many/most? Jews would say I clearly do not foloow the God of Abraham (though I claim to) because my faith has redefined Him into something not consistent with the original.

So my question is, How does Allah tie to the Christian God and in turn to the Jewish God. Is merely the claim that He is the God of Abraham sufficient enough for you or is there a series of historical ties (since the other faiths preceded Islam) that further strengthen the connection?

Your post clearly illustrates my major problem with religion; people are the ones who define (or redefine) God to suit their purposes. If you follow a god that you admit is 'not consistent with the original', then you cannot disabuse other sects of the right (and rightness) of redefining your god. Our gods have been redefined for as long as they have been conceived of; many people today find a spaghetti god to be as useful as any previous 'definition'.

quote:

Originally posted by NavyChief04:

quote:

Originally posted by Silverbusa:
You attribute Allah to being the same God as the Christian God who in turn attribute their God to being the same God as the Jewish God.

The problem occurs when people disagree on what the qualifications are for a god to be tied to another god.

For instance, I am a Christian but I do not believe that some Christian sects actually worship the same God as I because by their holy scriptures they have redefined God into something He has made clear he is not. Just as some/many/most? Jews would say I clearly do not foloow the God of Abraham (though I claim to) because my faith has redefined Him into something not consistent with the original.

So my question is, How does Allah tie to the Christian God and in turn to the Jewish God. Is merely the claim that He is the God of Abraham sufficient enough for you or is there a series of historical ties (since the other faiths preceded Islam) that further strengthen the connection?

Your post clearly illustrates my major problem with religion; people are the ones who define (or redefine) God to suit their purposes. If you follow a god that you admit is 'not consistent with the original', then you cannot disabuse other sects of the right (and rightness) of redefining your god. Our gods have been redefined for as long as they have been conceived of; many people today find a spaghetti god to be as useful as any previous 'definition'.

That's why I always refer people to the source (Bible) that defines my God. It's always a matter for you to see for yourself.

The God of Abraham is also the God of Isaac and Jacob.
God said he is the God of Abrahan Issac and Jacob, but didn't mention Ishmael in that context.
He did say this about Ishmael, He shall be a wild ass of a man, his hand against every man and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell over against all his kinsmen." (Genesis 16:11-12 RSV).

The followers of Islam are now against the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, and God's chosen people, the Jews, and almost everyone else in the world. Just like the scripture states.

So I would say that the religion of Islam does not worship the God of Abraham.

The religion of Islam was established well over four thousand years after the earliest record of worshiping the living God, The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who also wants to be the God of the descendants of Ismael. But only on His terms.

I feel that every religion was once the same. We have the same similar stories. We have the same ideas.

It was only when man decided to warp what GOD had made, we see all the different sects. From Mormons to Muslims. All have the same basis, but as they continue on they keep getting farther and farther away from what was.

I feel that GOD had to have shown himself to people all over the globe. What we see as religions in places where Islam and Christianity didn't touch for a long time...i.e...the Native Americans. They have similar stories, they have the one god that is higher than others. Humans have just warped what was once a singular event.

If you look, every religion has a story of a flood. Every religion has a second coming of someone/thing to save everyone. From the Aztecs to the Hindus, we see this. The emphasis might not be as strong in some areas, but the stories are the same if you look at it.

That being said, Zoroastranism (sp) predates all of the religions that we see today.

It complies the same story, the same legends as our religions.

While I believe there is a GOD, and am a Southern Baptist myself, I see too many similarities in stories....too many religions being almost the same.......and feel that if GOD is GOD, he would reveal himself to people in different manners in different areas, at different times to all people in all the world.

That being said, it's my personal belief that GOD saw fit to correct the corruption that religion has become by sending his son JESUS to adjust things...to turn all these fragmented religions back into what once was. Slowly, that is happening.

Who can say GOD's will? I surely cannot. The basic tenets of loving one another and trying to live a good life ring true through many religions. It is sad the way human beings have warped things...but hey, were are not perfect, are we.

And I would say this fragmentation of religion happened around the time the fragmentation of speech. There is a common root to all spoken language. Science has proven this. Think about it.

I really feel that most organized religion is a huge part in throwing people off track. You must have a close and personal relationship with GOD. Go out one night. Sit under the stars and think. Think about everything, about how small you are...about how amazing it is that we are even here. How we are a tiny speck on a tiny speck in the great area that is the Universe. A place so big our minds are not capable of knowing the fact. Sure, we can try to express it in numbers, exponet-wise...but we do not have the ability to know.

I would love to see every religion tone down. Accept the fact that the basic premise is to love one another and be a good human being. Stop the hate and rivalry. Be open to the fact that there is one GOD, and by what name you call him really doesn't matter. The fact he made you and loves you matters.

As stated before, in my line of thought, I feel that Jesus came back to allow us the Kingdom of Heaven. To try and bring what was splintered into something whole again. As perfect as he is, His message had to be passed on to humans who are sure to muck it up. Which we have, and we will continue to do. It's kinda how we're made.

In defining God, we need to consider the attributes of God.

The Hebrew EL was the name adopted by Abram. It was a Canaanite word which meant The Chief or Highest God.

As the religion of the early Habiru's advanced to become Judaism the name EL became associated with the attributes of EL. Such as Elohim (God of all) Eloisha, Elonida, Elosha, Elizabeth and others such as Adoni Adonijah, Adonihim all the way up to thirty eight different attributes.

When Islam refers to God as Robert has already outlined they use THE God or Al Illah which becomes as he said a compound word, ALLAH The God, of Abraham. They have 99 attributes as well. Which many FALSLY call 99 different gods that is not true! They are to describe attributes, that is their purpose and that only.

The Arabs are the other branch of the Semitic people (Hebrews and Arabs)

The forefather of those people was Ishmael the oldest son of Abraham. He was the older half brother of Issac who, because of the covenant that God had given to Abraham, was the hier to Abraham and Sarah. Genesis tells the story of all this which you can find on our web site for The People of Abraham. I posted the U.R.L. for it in an earlier post here. There are three videos there, called the Names of God One. The Names of God Two and another video that outlines a welcome to the group and states the goals. There are links all over the world that you can visit, to learn just about anything you want to learn about almost all religions. Once there, you can download free, anything you see I negotiated for months with many of them for this priviledge. Among them are the Vatican Library, the Israelli state Institute, The Shrine of the Book (the Dead Sea Scrolls) and many others. There are links to other organizations like ours all over the world from Canada to New Zealand, Europe to Egypt, and lots of other places. Click the little Verve Earth icon and you never know where you end up!!
We are among the top five thousand blogs in the world!!

We have five web sites. Robert has The American Muslim and a blog radio show of the same name. I have Life religion and family and the people of Abraham. The one for the group is one, and there is the web site for The Tree of The Mustard Seed Ministries which is mine and yours here at Military .com, and Tawodi's Hawks Nest which is my blog talk radio show. If you want to learn, come on ahead!!

This is not spamming, nobody makes a red cent all are volunteers, all over the world, who want our kids to be safe that's it, that's the goal.

EDIT; The U.R.L. is on another thread, so if the mods don't strike it, here it is again.
http://peopleofabraham.blogspot.com

Be well friends..............Tawodi

Jehovah (Yahweh)

The proper name of God in the Old Testament; hence the Jews called it the name by excellence, the great name, the only name, the glorious and terrible name, the hidden and mysterious name, the name of the substance, the proper name, and most frequently shem hammephorash, i.e. the explicit or the separated name, though the precise meaning of this last expression is a matter of discussion (cf. Buxtorf, "Lexicon", Basle, 1639, col. 2432 sqq.).

Without going into great discussion about this and a few poorly mistranslated Bible versus...

YHWH came much later Outlaws, Tawodi was 100% correct.

More on this God of Abraham (as) stuff. The question is how many Abraham's, Isaac's, and Ishmael's (as) have you heard of?

If we say we believe in THAT God whatever Abraham (as) called Him and it was not Allah, YHWH, Jesus (as), or even God, because NONE of those languages existed back then, whomever he directed his praise to, that is who we submit, rather you like it or not.

The Qur'an is quite clear on that point that we worship none but the God of Abraham (as) and follow his example.

What you guys are wrangling over which is outside of this debate is INTERPRETATION of God, is not what I'm debating. God's attributes, what He looks like, how you worship Him, is your business. But I believe as my faith dictates, that there is But ONE God who created all things beginning with Adam (as). If you don't believe that, then I guess you do in fact believe in something else.

Now in the case of Ishmael (as) since it was brought up and is a common attack of Christians even though they fall into the vatican trap of twisting scripture to combat Islam thousands of years after the fact.

Ishmael (as) even according to your scripture was the first born of Abraham (as) AFTER he was promised that all people will be blessed through HIM. Ishmael (as) which means "God Hears" was in fact blessed by God, as God promised Abraham (as) that he would bless him and his descendants and make them into princes, etc. Ishmael (as) believed as his father with his 3 wives (bet you didn't know that) and his brothers, as is evidenced not only in the fact that he and his brother Isaac (as) buried their father together, but also his sons and daughters as well as Isaac's (as) sons and daughters married amongst one another, I suggest you re-read your Bible's.

Furthermore, even though you don't believe in Judaism, the Jews have always believed that if you see Ishmael (as) in a dream, your prayers will be answered (Jewish Encyclopedia). Why? Because his very name means that God has blessed him, further proof is evidenced in the well of zam zam, you know that one that has been in Mecca (Bible: Bacca/Paran) that God sprang forth for Hagar (ra) and Ishmael (as) in the wilderness.

So without going any further, know that your Bible recounts much of what Muslims do today, even though they will never teach that in Sunday school, because often your pastors don't even know. But I will give you real Bible homework: Go research the following terms: Kedar, Paran, Bacca, Ishmaelite and tell me that Muslims are making this stuff up and believe in some kind of different God.

Lastly, go ask a Jew. I have yet to meet a Jew that believes that Muslims believe in some other God or different Prophets even while our very text recounts almost verbatim all the ones they have in the same fashion with similar laws.

The only Abrahamic religion that believes they know more than both Jews and Muslims is (drumroll) you guessed it! A religion that is almost completely different from both religions has the monopoly on God. And most of the sects are not even older than 500 years, but they are wiser than everyone else, talk about arrogance!

Even the Catholic Church knows we believe in the same God! We just worship and understand differently, is it really that hard?

so says your religion but not mine.... as i already pointed out....



No wonder then that this form has been regarded as the true pronunciation of the Divine name by such scholars as Michaelis ("Supplementa ad lexica hebraica", I, 1792, p. 524), Drach (loc. cit., I, 469-98), Stier (Lehrgebäude der hebr. Sprache, 327), and others.

* Jehovah is composed of the abbreviated forms of the imperfect, the participle, and the perfect of the Hebrew verb "to be" (ye=yehi; ho=howeh; wa=hawah). According to this explanation, the meaning of Jehovah would be "he who will be, is, and has been". But such a word-formation has no analogy in the Hebrew language.
* The abbreviated form Jeho supposes the full form Jehovah. But the form Jehovah cannot account for the abbreviations Jahu and Jah, while the abbreviation Jeho may be derived from another word.
* The Divine name is said to be paraphrased in Apocalypse 1:4, and 4:8, by the expression ho on kai ho en kai ho erchomenos, in which ho erchomenos is regard as equivalent to ho eromenos, "the one that will be"; but it really means "the coming one", so that after the coming of the Lord, Apocalypse 11:17, retains only ho on kai ho en.
* the comparison of Jehovah with the Latin Jupiter, Jovis. But it wholly neglects the fuller forms of the Latin names Diespiter, Diovis. Any connection of Jehovah with the Egyptian Divine name consisting of the seven Greek vowels has been rejected by Hengstenberg (Beitrage zur Einleiung ins Alte Testament, II, 204 sqq.) and Tholuck (Vermischte Schriften, I, 349 sqq.).

quote:

Originally posted by outlaws93:
so says your religion but not mine.... as i already pointed out....

Your religion then must be false, I never heard of your version of Christianity, must be that new right wing, us only version that came out in the last couple of decades.

quote:

Originally posted by Sgt_Salaam:

quote:

Originally posted by outlaws93:
so says your religion but not mine.... as i already pointed out....

Your religion then must be false, I never heard of your version of Christianity, must be that new right wing, us only version that came out in the last couple of decades.

ahhh and there he starts....

quote:

No wonder then that this form has been regarded as the true pronunciation of the Divine name by such scholars as Michaelis ("Supplementa ad lexica hebraica", I, 1792, p. 524), Drach (loc. cit., I, 469-98), Stier (Lehrgebäude der hebr. Sprache, 327), and others.

* Jehovah is composed of the abbreviated forms of the imperfect, the participle, and the perfect of the Hebrew verb "to be" (ye=yehi; ho=howeh; wa=hawah). According to this explanation, the meaning of Jehovah would be "he who will be, is, and has been". But such a word-formation has no analogy in the Hebrew language.
* The abbreviated form Jeho supposes the full form Jehovah. But the form Jehovah cannot account for the abbreviations Jahu and Jah, while the abbreviation Jeho may be derived from another word.
* The Divine name is said to be paraphrased in Apocalypse 1:4, and 4:8, by the expression ho on kai ho en kai ho erchomenos, in which ho erchomenos is regard as equivalent to ho eromenos, "the one that will be"; but it really means "the coming one", so that after the coming of the Lord, Apocalypse 11:17, retains only ho on kai ho en.
* the comparison of Jehovah with the Latin Jupiter, Jovis. But it wholly neglects the fuller forms of the Latin names Diespiter, Diovis. Any connection of Jehovah with the Egyptian Divine name consisting of the seven Greek vowels has been rejected by Hengstenberg (Beitrage zur Einleiung ins Alte Testament, II, 204 sqq.) and Tholuck (Vermischte Schriften, I, 349 sqq.).

DEBATE FORUM READ THE RULES NOT THE COPY AND PASTE FORUM!!!!! TOS ANYONE?

Abraham (as) DID NOT SPEAK any of those languages.

Better yet what RELIGION was Abraham (as)? Don't hurt your head, the Qur'an answers that for you!

3:67 Abraham was neither a "Jew" nor a "Christian", but was one who turned away from all that is false, having surrendered himself unto God; and he was not of those who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him.

What Muslims think about God?

2:255 GOD - there is no deity save Him, the Ever-Living, the Self-Subsistent Fount of All Being. Neither slumber overtakes Him, nor sleep. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth. Who is there that could intercede with Him, unless it be by His leave? He knows all that lies open before men and all that is hidden from them, whereas they cannot attain to aught of His knowledge save that which He wills them to attain. His eternal power overspreads the heavens and the earth, and their upholding wearies Him not. And he alone is truly exalted, tremendous.


I know Outlaws, your religion believes in a different God than that!