DO WE REALLY HAVE TO ASK? I MEAN COME ON! ITS NOT THAT IM SEXIST OR ANYTHING BUT I DONT THINK THAT A WOMANS PLACE IS AT THE FRONT OF A BATTLE. SURE ALOT OF WOMEN ARE TOUGHER THAN ALOT OF GUYS BUT THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS THAT COULD GO WRONG! IE: "WELL SEEING AS HOW WE ARE GOING TO DIE IN THE MORNING WANNA DO IT NOW?" THE RISK OF STUPID LITTLE CHIKENSHIT GUYS WHO WANT TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF A WOMAN ARE JUST TO MANY. I FEEL THAT WOMEN HAVE THE RIGHT TO ENLIST, MANY HAVE GOOD MILITARY MINDS AND ALL RIGHT.

i think the real question is, would you feel safe with a woman watching your back. that should be the question for everyone. WOULD YOU WANT THEM (man or woman) WATCHING YOUR BACK? not, "****, a woman.." there are plenty of men who would make me shiver at the thought of having them next to me in combat.

personally, i've known i few women who i would serve with any time, any place.

I don't think it will be integrated very soon, but the fact is that Russian women in WWII served in combat units with success. There were also a lot of fatalities in those units but the Russians didn't seem to be in the business of preserving life at that time.
Do I think we are ready? No

We will eventually? I'm sure of it.

I think everyone should be based on the same standards, man or woman no different treatment. If everyone lives up to the same standard there should be no question if the person is cabable of combat, man or woman. If a woman wants to fight heck let them. Besides it's gonna be a woman's rights issue in a couple of years probably so why not deal with it now before it gets to that.

like what the post starter said there is just way to much stuff that can go wrong Russia during ww2 and the present day Us military are 2 Totally diffrent things man u shouldn't even consider comparing the 2. Russia was desperate tell me if i'm wrong but russia lost a whole generation of men during ww2 russia lost about 5 million soilders they where DEsPERATe if america was losing 5 million men to a opposing army I'm SURE they would make some change to the military but we are instead we are losing 1 or 2 men a week so like i said its not the same man is just not to same don't take offensce to what i said i didn't mean to get on u but just know ur stuff

I agree with the topic starter. I'm a girl, and I firmly believe in separate roles that man and woman must play separately in society. Women sure can be in combat support, but not in combat.
Have you all seen GI Jane? that movie was awful...the last thing I want to see happen is women being admitted into the SEALs...

Women already are. Get with it!

The lionesses? I think there Army. I know Woman Marines=WM's sometimes go in with entry teams so the Iraqi women do not fear rape, as they did for years under the USSR, UN and their own governments forces. This way they know the soldiars searching their house are there for military reasons, not crimminal.

My view is diametrically opossed to yours apparently. I feel confident in the women I have met and served with that they have my back and I theirs = ). Nothing, but nothing touches any brother or sister of fine!

The Females I have met shoot great and they seem like the types who basically bug their commanding officers to death untill they finally break down and say "OK, you can come" "Go to the armory and get your weapon..." and then it's more like your mom or big sister slapping you arround so I really don't understand where some of you guys get your attitudes about the women. Well... Some of you slap your wives around. Untill they meet me and find real completeness and leave you. And then we'll fight. and the police will come and arrest you after I beat your *** for sunday punching me...

Oops! back on track.

As I was saying,

No, if I had a daughter I would not want her in combat. However, the women who I have met seem to chose to be where they are and seem pretty good at it. IDF Isreali women mess people up!!! Not even funny. Dudes.

Immagine some jihadist who gets shot in the head by an American Female soldier as he faces Alah;

Alah;
"So my slave of the god, how is it that such a young man came before me"?

Jihadist;
"Well your emminence, I was in Felujah where there was this former Jordanian who was kicked out of his own country, so he came here to help us resist the Americans who are trying to rebuild our country".

Alah;
"You were resisting their help?"" I do not understand my son".

Jihadist;
"Well, we were told that it is your will to kill all infidels and we will ascend to heaven if we die fighting them and our families will get money..."

Alah;
"Really?" "Err.. I mean, is that so?"
"So how is it that you are now before me?"

Jihadist;
"well just before I was shot in the head by the American Female.."

Alah;
"You were what?" "You miserable failure of a man, may you burn in hell for a thousand years and your sons and their sons will have hot coals forced into their mouths for failing my will....." on and on....


I am sorry, but a Latina from east LA can use a K-baar just as well as some white farm boy who grew up with chickens. It also just defiles any muslim false pride they may still be harboring making their initiative and will a little more of a struggle, so from a psy-ops perspective it's freakin cool!!

Just another way of lookin at things gentlemen, sorry continue with your woman bashing string, despite it's relevence to reality.

someones got to do the washing and the ironing

Enough men are ready to volounteer so there is no need to allow females to fight. While a few men may flip out in combat the majority does not. We don't know about women.

thanks spookdog. for a moment there, i thought i was alone.

women are not allowed to serve as a seal. they aren't even allowed to sign up for it. into the marines yes, but not the seals. it is too much excruciating pain for them to handle. no offense. i know women that can out do me in many levels, but the seals is a totally different story. GI Jane was a movie.

i agree that women can be a lot of support in combat, but not literally in combat. then again, who the hell am i to tell you that women shouldn't fight. i'm just another voice. good luck with this conversation.

http://www.grunt.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=40815


Although this isn't SpecOps stuff, it is worth a read, based on the actions of some good NCOs

Subject: Real Convoy Ops


Subject: Raven 42 action in Salman Pak

Over the next few days you will see on the television news shows, and in the print news media the story of a Kentucky National Guard Military Police Squad who are heroes. Through those outlets, I doubt that their story will get out in a truly descriptive manner. I can't express to you the pride, awe, and respect I feel for the soldiers of callsign Raven 42.

On Sunday afternoon, in a very bad section of scrub-land called Salman Pak, on the southeastern outskirts of Baghdad, 40 to 50 heavily-armed Iraqi insurgents attacked a convoy of 30 civilian tractor trailer trucks that were moving supplies for the coalition forces, along an Alternate Supply Route.

These tractor trailers, driven by third country nationals (primarily Turkish), were escorted by 3 armored Hummers from the COSCOM. When the insurgents attacked, one of the Hummers was in their kill zone and the three soldiers aboard were immediately wounded, and the platform taken under heavy machinegun and RPG fire. Along with them, three of the truck drivers were killed, 6 were wounded in the tractor trailer trucks. The enemy attacked from a farmer's barren field next to the road, with a tree line perpendicular to the ASR, two dry irrigation ditches forming a rough L-shaped trench line, and a house standing off the dirt road.
After three minutes of sustained fire, a squad of enemy moved forward toward the disabled and suppressed trucks. Each of the enemy had hand-cuffs and were looking to take hostages for ransom or worse, to take those three wounded US soldiers for more internet beheadings.

About this time, three armored Hummers that formed the MP Squad under call sign Raven 42, 617th MP Co, Kentucky National Guard, assigned to the 503rd MP Bn, 18th MP Bde, arrived on the scene like the cavalry. The squad had been shadowing the convoy from a distance behind the last vehicle, and when the convoy trucks stopped and became backed up from the initial attack, the squad sped up, paralleled the convoy up the shoulder of the road, and moved to the sound of gunfire. They arrived on the scene just as a squad of about ten enemy had moved forward across the farmer's field and were about 20 meters from the road. The MP squad opened fire with .50 cal machineguns and
Mk19 grenade launchers and drove across the front of the enemy's kill zone, between the enemy and the trucks, drawing fire off of the tractor trailers.
The MP's crossed the kill zone and then turned up an access road at a right angle to the ASR and next to the field full of enemy fighters.

The three vehicles, carrying nine MPs and one medic, stopped in a line on the dirt access road and flanked the enemy positions with plunging fire from the .50 cal and the SAW machinegun (Squad Automatic Weapon).
In front of them, was a line of seven sedans, with all their doors and trunk lids open, the getaway cars and the lone two story house off on their left.

Immediately the middle vehicle was hit by an RPG knocking the gunner unconscious from his turret and down into the vehicle. The Vehicle Commander (the TC), the squad's leader, thought the gunner was dead, but tried to treat him from inside the vehicle. Simultaneously, the rear vehicle's driver and TC, section leader two, open their doors and dismount to fight, while their gunner continued firing from his position in the gun platform on top of the Hummer. Immediately, all three fall under heavy return machinegun fire, wounded. The driver of the middle vehicle saw them fall out the rearview mirror, dismounts and sprints to get into the third vehicle and take up the SAW on top the vehicle. The Squad's medic dismounts from that third vehicle, and joined by the first vehicle's driver (CLS trained) who sprinted back to join him, begins combat life-saving techniques to treat the three wounded MPs. The gunner on the floor of the second vehicle is revived by his TC, the squad leader, and he climbs back into the .50 cal and opens fire. The Squad leader dismounted with his M4 carbine, and 2 hand grenades, grabbed the section leader out of the first vehicle who had rendered radio reports of their first contact. The two of them, squad leader Staff Sergeant and team leader Sergeant with her M4 and M203 grenade launcher, rush the nearest ditch about 20 meters away to start clearing the natural trenchline.
The enemy has gone into the ditches and is hiding behind several small trees in the back of the lot. The .50 cal and SAW flanking fire tears apart the ten in the lead trenchline.

Meanwhile, the two treating the three wounded on the ground at the rear vehicle come under sniper fire from the lone house. Each of them, remember one is a medic, pull out AT-4 rocket launchers from the HMMWV and nearly-simultaneously fire the rockets into the house to neutralize the shooter. The two sergeants work their way up the trenchline, throwing grenades, firing grenades from the launcher, and firing their M4s. The sergeant runs low on ammo and runs back to a vehicle to reload.
She moves to her squad leader's vehicle, and because this squad is led so well, she knows exactly where to reach her arm blindly into a different vehicle to find ammo-because each vehicle is packed exactly the same, with discipline.

As she turns to move back to the trenchline, Gunner in two sees an AIF jump from behind one of the cars and start firing on the Sergeant. He pulls his 9mm, because the .50 cal is pointed in the other direction, and shoots five rounds wounding him. The sergeant moves back to the trenchline under fire from the back of the field, with fresh mags, two more grenades, and three more M203 rounds. The Mk 19 gunner suppresses the rear of the field. Now, rejoined with the squad leader, the two sergeants continue clearing the enemy from the trenchline, until they see no more movement. A lone man with an RPG launcher on his shoulder steps from behind a tree and prepares to fire on the three Hummers and is killed with a single aimed SAW shot thru the head by the previously knocked out gunner on platform two, who now has a SAW out to supplement the .50 cal in the mount. The team leader sergeant, she claims four killed by aimed M4 shots. The Squad Leader, he threw four grenades taking out at least two baddies, and attributes one other to her aimed
M203 fire.

The gunner on platform two, previously knocked out from a hit by the RPG, has now swung his .50 cal around and, realizing that the line of vehicles represents a hazard and possible getaway for the bad guys, starts shooting the .50cal into the engine blocks until his field of fire is limited. He realizes that his vehicle is still running despite the RPG hit, and drops down from his weapon, into the drivers seat and moves the vehicle forward on two flat tires about 100 meters into a better firing position. Just then, the vehicle dies, oil spraying everywhere. He remounts his .50 cal and continues shooting the remaining of the seven cars lined up and ready for a get-away that wasn't to happen. The fire dies down about then, and a second squad arrives on the scene, dismounts and helps the two giving first aid to the wounded at platform three. Two minutes later three other squads from the 617th arrive, along with the CO, and the field is secured, consolidation begins.

Those seven Americans (with the three wounded) killed in total 24 heavily armed enemy, wounded 6 (two later died), and captured one unwounded, who feigned injury to escape the fight. They seized 22 AK-47s, 6x RPG launchers w/ 16 rockets, 13x RPK machineguns, 3x PKM machineguns, 40 hand grenades,
123 fully loaded 30-rd AK magazines, 52 empty mags, and 10 belts of 2500 rds of PK ammo.

The three wounded MPs have been evacuated to Landstuhl. One lost a kidney and will be paralyzed. The other two will most likely recover, though one will forever have a bullet lodged between second and third ribs below his heart. No word on the three COSCOM soldiers wounded in the initial volleys.

Of the 7 members of Raven 42 who walked away, two are Caucasian Women, the rest men--one is Mexican-American, the medic is African-American, and the other two are Caucasian-the great American melting pot. They believed even before this fight that their NCOs were the best in the Army, and that they have the best squad in the Army. The Medic who fired the AT-4, said he remembered how from the week before when his squad leader forced him to train on it, though he didn't think as a medic he would ever use one. He said he chose to use it in that moment to protect the three wounded on the ground in front of him, once they came under fire from the building. The day before this mission, they took the new RFI bandoliers that were recently issued, and experimented with mounting them in their vehicles. Once they figured out how, they pre-loaded a second basic load of ammo into magazines, put them into the bandoliers, and mounted them in their vehicles---the same exact way in every vehicle-load plans enforced and checked by leaders!

Leadership under fire--once those three leaders (NCOs) stepped out of their vehicles, the squad was committed to the fight.

Their only complaints in the AAR were: the lack of stopping power in the 9mm; the .50 cal incendiary rounds they are issued in lieu of ball ammo (shortage of ball in the inventory) didn't have the penetrating power needed to pierce the walls of the building; and that everyone in the squad was not CLS trained.

Yesterday, Monday, was spent with the chaplain and the chain of command conducting AARs. Today, every news media in theater wanted them. Good Morning America, NBC, CBS, FOX, ABC, Stars and Stripes, and many radio stations from Kentucky all were lined up today. The female E5 Sergeant who fought thru the trenchline will become the anti-Jessica Lynch media poster child. She and her squad leader deserve every bit of recognition they will get, and more. They all do.

I am a female in the Army and believe that women are not meant to be placed on the front lines. This does not mean that women are not capaible of being a "grunt". In our day and age and the wars that we are fighting, there is no front. In Iraq, the front is everywhere. I am an 88M or truck driver and I have seen and participated in my share of death and destruction. I have seen my buddies die both men and women.

Well, for all you doubters out there, as the previous poster noted, there are no longer any front lines, and on what little is left of them, you will find women, whether or not they ever expected to be there. It is the nature of Spec Ops that we do things differently, and I knew plenty of women in CAPOC who rode up into Iraq with the 3rd ID when they passed the marines in OIF 1.

Frankly, when it comes to periods, being raped, having the necessary stamina etc... all the issues so frequently cited by those who haven't BTDT, a war zone is a war zone period when you're there at the beginning. You know it takes a while for those posh little KBR style camps to get up and running and in the meantime, you piss in a bottle, do the rest in the grass (excuse me; dust) and find a discreet place to dispose of your used feminine hygiene products while battle crazed soldiers rape 8 females in a week at Camp Arifjan. Does it suck? Absolutely!! Do current policies exclude it happening? Absolutely NOT!! Either way, it seems to me that we're the ones with our heads on straight if we can endure all that and more.

I AGREE!!! You should read my other posts for a more elaborate discussion of the issue. Remember that Type A cutie sleeping next to you might have to explain to her husband as well. This isn't one sided. And maybe it's you who's getting coddled with separate facilities Don't be so presumptuous. No, seriously though I couldn't agree more with what you actually wrote, even if it was meant to be thoroughly tongue-in-cheek.

How many those females who are deployed to these areas are not coming home pregnant or being forced to come early due to that fact? It is a mans nature to protect females from harm. A male will feel more compelled to assist a female in danger then a male. My last unit didnt have females and to honest I wouldnt have it any other way. I've had females in previous units and it was more and more like a soap opera everyday. Females are just as good as males when it comes to just about anything...but Infantry....I dont think so. I doubt a female can fend off a crazed iraqi who out weighes her by about 75 to 100 lbs for more then 30 seconds. And if you think about the public would go twice as nuts about seeing a dead female then a dead male in the sand.

quote:

Originally posted by DesertFox183:
someones got to do the washing and the ironing

that kinda hurt imma guy and thats really seems just seems wrong what you said. i just felt like you should know that but anyway. If there are eight females raped a week shouldn't there be like 8 COURT MARSHALS!! but would a desprate military overlook such heinous acts when they need infantry the most? could we afford so many dishonorable discharges? as for females and projectile pissing i dunno wat to say about that ummm... should females serve my answer is yes, maybe there could be all females platoons, a type of military organization that is seperated by gender, that seems like a good idea, 1st female corps of the Us army. speaking of seperation what about homosexuals in the military do you think that whole don't ask don't tell rule is actually fair? come out the closet and your gone... back to females uh im a bit divide on both genders serving together in CZ's both views are really valid.

Think of the sexual harrassment crap but. Men arn't as polite in war as they are at home.

quote:

Originally posted by Wallabies5:
Think of the sexual harrassment crap but. Men arn't as polite in war as they are at home.

who ever said they were polite at home?!? I'm kidding.

Ahem, no.

Women belong in many places, the kitchen, the laundry-room, the bedroom, the garden. (Joking ) One place they don't belong is in the front lines. I believe that women can play an important role in the military in combat support, however, any way you spin it and noting exceptions to the rule, generally men are more combat capable than women. Even if women were allowed in BUD/S training how many do you think would honestly make it? I'm sure once in a great while one might make it, but let's face it: biologically, the human females nature is to raise and nurture young. The males hunt and protect. That's just how it is.