The logic against using torture is overwhelming. About the best the pro-torture crowd can come up with is "if torturing saves one life..." The key word there is "if". And we've seen time and time again that that "if" doesn't really exist.

Key points:

-The FBI advocated a law-enforcement approach to interrogation, it has worked for decades, it works today.

-The standard for interrogation, the Army manual on interrogation bans torture.

-Torture is illegal.

-Torture is immoral.

-Torture is not a reliable way to gain intelligence.

-Criminals in America kill far more Americans every year than all terrorist attacks combined ever have and not a single state or federal law enforcement agency advocates using torture against domestic criminals.

-Nazis killed more Americans that terrorists ever have. They were a bigger threat, and we banned torture then.

-The most successful interrogators in the world, past and present do not use torture.

-Any person who considers themself a Christian, Muslim, Jew, or ascribes to any number of other faiths shouldn't have a question in their minds about torture.

-Counter insurgencies require the support of the people. Torturing people degrades that support.

-Like it or not, we are part of the world community. We have been successful in the past at building coalitions to help fight our wars (Desert Storm is a prime example). Torture degrades our ability to build alliances.

-Torture degrades our credibility abroad; it destroys morale and support at home.

-We are better than our enemies.

quote:

Originally posted by foxred03:
The logic against using torture is overwhelming. About the best the pro-torture crowd can come up with is "if torturing saves one life..." The key word there is "if". And we've seen time and time again that that "if" doesn't really exist.

Key points:

-The FBI advocated a law-enforcement approach to interrogation, it has worked for decades, it works today.

-The standard for interrogation, the Army manual on interrogation bans torture.

-Torture is illegal.

-Torture is immoral.

-Torture is not a reliable way to gain intelligence.

-Criminals in America kill far more Americans every year than all terrorist attacks combined ever have and not a single state or federal law enforcement agency advocates using torture against domestic criminals.

-Nazis killed more Americans that terrorists ever have. They were a bigger threat, and we banned torture then.

-The most successful interrogators in the world, past and present do not use torture.

-Any person who considers themself a Christian, Muslim, Jew, or ascribes to any number of other faiths shouldn't have a question in their minds about torture.

-Counter insurgencies require the support of the people. Torturing people degrades that support.

-Like it or not, we are part of the world community. We have been successful in the past at building coalitions to help fight our wars (Desert Storm is a prime example). Torture degrades our ability to build alliances.

-Torture degrades our credibility abroad; it destroys morale and support at home.

-We are better than our enemies.

I agree if we torture we are no morally better than our enemies.

Torture is illegal...so is hazing for promotions, etc. Both serve a useful purpose.

Well, since I'm a lost cause and beyond help, common sense says I should change my thinking and become more normal. But that's difficult to do for a young man such as myself. Although I've never been in the U.S. Army roaming around in my jungle gear, I would honestly hope if I was captured by enemy forces, Duster6 would be my Commanding Officer. I'd have at least a 50/50 chance of survival and a lot of hope.

There is minimal time in 24 hours to hand out lollipops to our killers. Although if there is six months of time, maybe Ringosrule, SinepariDonster, Grey Wolf, and others who know more than myself well their ideas would work fine. But, what do you do when the plane is 400 miles off the coast and the bomb explodes in 20 minutes. We have to defuse mighty quick. We have the killer that planted the bomb. What do we do? Well, now I just don't know what to do.

Well, Bergy46, I don't think there's anything wrong with you. You seem normal to me, but you must remember I'm a lost cause and beyond hope. And it is nice that we are all somewhat civilized.

Well, just remember, there is no statute of limitations on torture as a war crime, as former Nazis are still finding out - so that would be one thing that would need some thought. Some day somebody might fill out the paperwork, and off to the klink or gallows ya go - -

The REAL problem here is that so many Americans have fallen into the idea that ANYTHING stressful is torture.
The so-called "enhanced interrogation" measures for which our good troops are being accused of torture are further from REAL torture than the initiation I had when I crossed the equator.

Lets get real.

quote:

Originally posted by Fankhouser:
Well, since I'm a lost cause and beyond help, common sense says I should change my thinking and become more normal. But that's difficult to do for a young man such as myself. Although I've never been in the U.S. Army roaming around in my jungle gear, I would honestly hope if I was captured by enemy forces, Duster6 would be my Commanding Officer. I'd have at least a 50/50 chance of survival and a lot of hope.

There is minimal time in 24 hours to hand out lollipops to our killers. Although if there is six months of time, maybe Ringosrule, SinepariDonster, Grey Wolf, and others who know more than myself well their ideas would work fine. But, what do you do when the plane is 400 miles off the coast and the bomb explodes in 20 minutes. We have to defuse mighty quick. We have the killer that planted the bomb. What do we do? Well, now I just don't know what to do.

Well, Bergy46, I don't think there's anything wrong with you. You seem normal to me, but you must remember I'm a lost cause and beyond hope. And it is nice that we are all somewhat civilized.

My mistake bro., I should have said liberals and those sympathetic to the cause of our enemies, probably think there is something wrong with me.

My lack of tolerance toward those whom wish to harm us, may construed as an aggressive attitude. Yup, and I'm dang proud of it!

You are not a lost cause bro., if you have the same mindset as those of us whom have had enough of mollycoddling bad guys, both foreign and domestic, you ain't a lost cause!

quote:

Originally posted by jerrym:
The REAL problem here is that so many Americans have fallen into the idea that ANYTHING stressful is torture.
The so-called "enhanced interrogation" measures for which our good troops are being accused of torture are further from REAL torture than the initiation I had when I crossed the equator.

Lets get real.

Yeah, let's get real for a moment. The bottom line is that most of those "enhanced techniques" you laugh off are not only banned by the Geneva Convention, but by our own government. Any soldier caught using them would likely be court-martialed. The really screwed up thing is that this is nothing new.

I'm going to go out on a limb, and presume that most readers here have read my previous posts on this topic on this particular thread.

Putting aside the rubbish seen in the popular TV shows and movies and the seemingly heroic and successful efforts of comic-book heroes like Jack Ryan, Mister Clark (aka John Kelly), Jack Bauer and James Bond, ect, ad eternum, ad nauseum...

Let's be realistic about all of this -

1) No one has been captured with Doctor Evil's plans for world destruction and/or domination and been thwarted by the careful and precise application of gut-twisting, eye-popping and innovative extraction techniques.
...that is Hollywood. It is created by a guy who writes for a living.

2) In the real world of human conflict - Global Wars, Regional Wars, Guerilla Wars and Counter-Terrorism, the nefarious plots of the bad guys are thwarted by good, solid, plodding, boring analysis and investigative police work. The folks who come up with the answers are those geeks who listen to recordings at NSA and CIA and DIA and FBI. They interrogate people without all the dramatics in foreign languages and listen for similar stories or nuances in voice inflection. They interview people and sift through garbage cans and watch for commo traffic and do all the grunt work in cubicles for weeks and months and years without fanfare. Work that Jack Bauer couldn't do to save his own life 'cause he's an adrenaline junkie with PTSD.
The real heroes who foil plots toil without action/commando aspirations and pass information up the chain of command and hope they've made a difference...and they never get medals for it.

3) The United States is a co-signatory of the Geneva and Hague Conventions and we abide by the Law of Land Warfare and the Nuremberg findings not because it's easy or convenient, but because it's the right thing to do. These conventions were supported by and in many cases written by US Military officers because of how POWs were treated. It does not matter that our enemies are not signers of those Conventions - we are. They apply to us.

4) For those of you who have any doubts about waterboarding being torture, let me remind you that at the end of WWII at the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunals held in Manila, Japanese soldiers who waterboarded Americans were sentenced to 20 years hard labor for Class B War Crimes, and the officers over them were hung for Class A War Crimes for permitting it. And Americans were outraged at the lenient sentences passed out for those who had laid a hand on men who were disarmed and therefore helpless non-combatants.

Off my box....Out.

You all have a good one.

quote:

4) For those of you who have any doubts about waterboarding being torture, let me remind you that at the end of WWII at the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunals held in Manila, Japanese soldiers who waterboarded Americans were sentenced to 20 years hard labor for Class B War Crimes, and the officers over them were hung for Class A War Crimes for permitting it.

Just to add some info., not to condone or otherwise promote SOP for "questioning"

Doctors in Japan during WW2 did unspeakable medical "experiments" on US Armed forces members
that involved nothing more than morbid couriousity, to see what happens when they would do "medical" procedures...sick..and it wasn't even for info., it was for "research".
I suspect these "experiments" would lead to a very talkative or very deadfiant captive.

Captives came home, if they were ever turned over, in boxes.

Many of them, the doctors and miltary involved..Japanese personell walked...scotch free...

Stuff is just sick..are we (the US) doing that?

quote:

Originally posted by Bergy46:
There must be something wrong with me, I have no sympathy for those who hate us, who desire to kill us wipe and wipe us out.

Torture seems fitting for the crazed murderers!
I was being facitious, when I said, "there must be something wrong with me".

=========================================
Yes I guess we should kizz the azz of that terrorist that with one swing of his blade lopped off the head of a prisoner, and god help us if we stack them up naked. And we must stop toturing our seals that get water boarded during traing, and for god sake stop them college kids for waterboarding the freshman. yes I guess kizzing azz is the best way to win wars against terrorists....

quote:

EOCRon

You obviously have not followed the entire series of posts which address this issue in a calm and dispassionate manner. Please take the time to read, learn and digest the information being disseminated in this forum regarding the effectiveness of waterboarding or other forms of torture in gathering accurate, useful intelligence before jumping in with your emotional rant.

While with 5th SFGA I was in the first Level III SERE class at Camp Mackall in 1981, and have been the subject of extensive waterboard exposure as observer and subject (we had to sign numerous legal waivers before the course), and as a class, we were told by LTC Nick Rowe (5 years POW) that this was the kind of treatment we could expect from any number of brutal totalitarian regimes with no regard for basic human dignity or civilized behavior...in other words, animals.
It has been toned down considerably since those first classes.
Yes sir, it was torture.

This is not about "kissing azz", as you so eloquently put it.

It's about getting results...and torture and abuse do not get results, ever...period.

Please take your meds and calm down and save your sarcasm for your children...I'm sure they benefit greatly from it, grown ups are not amused.

quote:

Originally posted by SinePariDonster:

quote:

EOCRon

You obviously have not followed the entire series of posts which address this issue in a calm and dispassionate manner. Please take the time to read, learn and digest the information being disseminated in this forum regarding the effectiveness of waterboarding or other forms of torture in gathering accurate, useful intelligence before jumping in with your emotional rant.

While with 5th SFGA I was in the first Level III SERE class at Camp Mackall in 1981, and have been the subject of extensive waterboard exposure as observer and subject (we had to sign numerous legal waivers before the course), and as a class, we were told by LTC Nick Rowe (5 years POW) that this was the kind of treatment we could expect from any number of brutal totalitarian regimes with no regard for basic human dignity or civilized behavior...in other words, animals.
It has been toned down considerably since those first classes.
Yes sir, it was torture.

This is not about "kissing azz", as you so eloquently put it.

It's about getting results...and torture and abuse do not get results, ever...period.

Please take your meds and calm down and save your sarcasm for your children...I'm sure they benefit greatly from it, grown ups are not amused.

=============================================
I agree don't torture give them a ice cream cone kizz thier azz and ask them to please tell all. And if you do I promise you another ice cream.. Be very nice to them..By the way my kids are grown and I don't need meds to calm down. I didn't enjoy the way they treat us and believe we should be alot nicer to them.

quote:

Originally posted by VeteranDad78:

quote:

4) For those of you who have any doubts about waterboarding being torture, let me remind you that at the end of WWII at the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunals held in Manila, Japanese soldiers who waterboarded Americans were sentenced to 20 years hard labor for Class B War Crimes, and the officers over them were hung for Class A War Crimes for permitting it.

Just to add some info., not to condone or otherwise promote SOP for "questioning"

Doctors in Japan during WW2 did unspeakable medical "experiments" on US Armed forces members
that involved nothing more than morbid couriousity, to see what happens when they would do "medical" procedures...sick..and it wasn't even for info., it was for "research".
I suspect these "experiments" would lead to a very talkative or very deadfiant captive.

Captives came home, if they were ever turned over, in boxes.

Many of them, the doctors and miltary involved..Japanese personell walked...scotch free...

Stuff is just sick..are we (the US) doing that?

I already knew the answer...NO.

But damn if I am going to give a rat's azz

if a person of interest gets a little "seasick"

Robert

Guys, there is such a multitude of comments on this subject it will probably find it's way into history.

Mike, you would do the very same that Don or I would do under your example. No matter what it took. However, I do not place this type of immediate on sight action as torture. There's an old method of shooting the perp in the foot, then the other foot, then the knee, then the other knee. You get the picture, but in the end whether you got what you was needing to find the other team members, the final shot was to the head. Of course this defeats the "One Shot-One Kill" theory. But it is referred to as field expedience.

At times we used the expression of "Frag them all and let GOD sort the good from the bad."

Torture is when you use certain methods to gain intelligence where needed, and allow the victim to squalor in their own filth rather then terminating them after the fact. Throwing a person from a flying plane is not torture, it is insane, but it does give a psychological impression of what is in store for those who do not tell you what you want to hear. Torture is everlasting pain. Discomfort is not torture.

I forgot who it was up there who stated that in the end he would gain the information he was after. To that I say Tiger-117 and Tiger-121. I have been interrogated by men far more experienced then you, and they never got squat. Except Name, Rank, and SRN. Once you say anything more then that, they have gotten to you, and you will squeal. Interrogation is one of the biggest "Mind Games" on Earth. Ones home town name or state name was permissible, but I have found, those who stick with N, R, SRN, will fare much better than anyone else.

This is one that probably would have done well in "Point Counter-Point". As for the old snake eaters, we take care of our own and use whatever means necessary to accomplish the mission. For some of you who are spouting off on how easily it would be for you to use torture, how many of you have shot a person, how many of you have actually killed a person, how many of you have been a sniper and watched the projectile literally blow the face off the head, or disintegrate the head?

One talked about the disposition of those of us who are/were Professional Warriors, taking lives when needed and blowing up anything and everything. Being placed in units which have a do nothing mission until he is needed again to kill people. Everyone who has been in that state of life, will have memories, nightmares, and shaky as a leaf in a winter blizzard. Some of it eventually goes away, to the back of the brain vault of experiences, but not totally away. How many of you have taken your shoulder knife, which is kept a sharp as a razor, one you could dry shave with, and slit the throat of an individual rather then fire a shot and take the chance of alerting the enemy. Mamasan was in the wrong country and the wrong place at the wrong time. Was this torture, NO, it was field expedience in a combat zone and considered as collateral damage. Gutten Nacht mien Kommodachie, Kris Gut..........Ringo looking for higher ground in my bed.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RingosRule,

quote:

'If hooking up one raghead terrorist prisoner's testicles to a car battery to
get the truth out of the lying little camelshagger will save just one Australian life, then I have
only three things to say,' 'Red is positive, black is negative, and make sure his nuts are wet.'

simple minds produce simple solutions.

quote:

Originally posted by dman1948:
You all think what you may, but I for one think that getting the job done is the end result.

If it takes torture, then do it, if it takes maybe a act of kindness then do it. If it takes lying though your teeth, then do it.

Each situation is different and should be approach as such, then the right "Need" be applied. You might not be 100% correct in your choice of "Need". But if it gets the job done and the answers you seek..then go for it.

If anyone of you held information that was needed to prevent an attemp on the President life, I would use what I need to use to extract that information from you. It won't be a Tea Party, that I can promise, but, I can promise you will answer.

I could just give you bogus info and you wouldn't know it until it was to late

I don't know how much weight my opinion has being "just a wife" and all, but I truly think some things are situational. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Say there is a terrorist that is captured and regardless of anything that we do/don't do, he hasn't talked. Nothing is going to convence him otherwise. He just won't talk. -- What do we do? Do we just keep going at him with the "moral" stuff and hope that he will eventually crack? Or do we threaten a little? Make him squirm a bit? Is there ever a situation where "enhanced" techniques ARE useful? And if so, what takes priority? The morality of knowing that you DIDN'T try everything and in turn got no information? Or the tug at your conscience that you hurt another human being but knowing that you saved countless lives because of the information that you got?

quote:

Originally posted by armywifefigueroa:
I don't know how much weight my opinion has being "just a wife" and all, but I truly think some things are situational. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Say there is a terrorist that is captured and regardless of anything that we do/don't do, he hasn't talked. Nothing is going to convence him otherwise. He just won't talk. -- What do we do? Do we just keep going at him with the "moral" stuff and hope that he will eventually crack? Or do we threaten a little? Make him squirm a bit? Is there ever a situation where "enhanced" techniques ARE useful? And if so, what takes priority? The morality of knowing that you DIDN'T try everything and in turn got no information? Or the tug at your conscience that you hurt another human being but knowing that you saved countless lives because of the information that you got?

There all all sorts of what-ifs out there, but the fact is that once an individual has been disarmed and removed from the battlefield, his immediate tactical knowledge becomes outdated...absolutely obsolete. And immediate tactical knowledge is the only kind that is actionable in the short term, because if it's more than 10 kms away, you can do nothing to change it anyway. This is not conjecture, it is a historical reality. Any military intelligence expert will verify this. If he is party to larger strategic plans, once others are aware he is missing, those plans are scrubbed or changed.

The whole last-minute Jack Bauer/James Bond to the rescue garbage is all Hollywood...it does not happen in real life.

Legally and practically, once someone is in the disarmed and in the rear, enhanced techniques will reveal ZERO OPERATIONAL intel. They are now non-combatant prisoners, and our treatment of them reflects on our nation as a whole. We cannot stand in righteous indignation and judgement of how others treat our POWs if we do not follow Geneva/Hague/Nuremberg ourselves.