A friend of mine sent this to me. I feel the same way also. I only wish that many of you liberals out there felt the same way as I do.

AUSTRALIA - THE VOICE OF MODERATION

One thing about blokes from Oz is that their hearts and humor are always in the right place!
T. B. Bechtel, a City Councilor from Newcastle, Australia, was asked on a local live
radio talk show, just what he thought about the allegations of torture of suspected terrorists.
His reply prompted his ejection from the studio, but to thunderous applause from the audience.

HIS STATEMENT: 'If hooking up one raghead terrorist prisoner's testicles to a car battery to
get the truth out of the lying little camelshagger will save just one Australian life, then I have
only three things to say,' 'Red is positive, black is negative, and make sure his nuts are wet.'

I really try to keep my political feelings to myself, but this just hit too close to my heart.

Mike,

Interesting point of view - certainly spoken with the testosterone rather than the higher brain functions of 'civilized' homo sapiens.

So if we set aside little inconveniences like Geneva, Hague, Law of Land Warfare and basic human morality and look at torture from a strictly tactical and pragmatic point of view, we are left with this:

1) Torture has never been a reliable method of extracting accurate or actionable intelligence.

2) Torture has always proven to be self-defeating, as what information that is gathered is done so under duress, making all further information questionable.

3) He is a loud-mouth, blow-hard, attention-seeker for years, but the essence of what Jesse Ventura said is true and I will happily co-sign it with further modification:

Give me a waterboard, an hour and Dick Cheney...or anyone else and I will have them confess to the Tate Murders...or anything else I tell them they are accused of. No exceptions.

Don

I think I like T.B. Bechtel

Our enemies are always going to do the electric bed springs, or bamboo under the fingernails, or the burned alive, or the foot crusher, or the barbed whips, or skinned alive - -

America was supposed to be a country that said no to all that. I remember guys back in the 70s bragging about occasionally running over a bicycler with a tank. Some cadre got one way tickets back to Nam for bragging about wrapping det cord around the necks of prisoners, or kicking them out of helicopters at altitude - -

Then the Mi Lai - William Calley thing came out -

I thought back then, "Is that what we've become?"

Again I might ask, "Is that what we've become?"

If so - then what makes us any different from them?

Since we are in a war of terror with people of no conscience, we have a choice to make. We win or lose by the decisions of our untrustworthy politicians. Since I haven't made sainthood yet, I'm riding with Duster6 and T. B. Bechtel and those who have the will to win, and we can win when our politicians regain the strength of men.

quote:

Originally posted by Fankhouser:
Since we are in a war of terror with people of no conscience, we have a choice to make. We win or lose by the decisions of our untrustworthy politicians. Since I haven't made sainthood yet, I'm riding with Duster6 and T. B. Bechtel and those who have the will to win, and we can win when our politicians regain the strength of men.

Sir,

The 'will to win' as you put it is one thing, using effective means to do so is another. The fact about torture is that it does not assist in winning. Never has...never will. It is a self-gratifying excercise in futility that damages both the subject and the interrogator and yields zero good intel.

PS The strength of men is not dependent on tough-guy tactics, but on maintaining human dignity in situations where that may have no bearing on anyone but one's self. If you had been through SERE you would know this.

When I was in Germany (1971-73), my landlord was a former U-Boat crewman. His Sub sunk ships, refused to pick up survivors, even fired on life boats and survivors in the water... He had been brought up as a Hitler Youth and brainwashed to believe all other races were inferior animals; thus, he had no conscience towards machinegunning survivors in the water. He specifically believed that all Americans and British subjects were monsters that deserved no better treatment than the Jews....

One day, his U-Boat was forced to the surface by depth charges. The Captain ordered the boat scuttled and the crew to abandon ship. This young Hitler loving Nazi was captured. OF course, he expected to be tortured and executed in the most horrendous way for being a U-Boat crewman, since the Allies looked on them as pirates, not combatants. Instead, he was dried out, clothed, warmed and fed. He was transported to Canada and put in a POW camp, where he gardened and participated in soccer games. When he was sent out on work gangs to work on roads and such, civilians coming by would often give them food and clothing - -

He was so shocked by all this that he suddenly came to the realization all his indoctrination was wrong! He made a vow that if he survived the war, he would somehow make amends for what he had done. I will not prolong this by trying to chronicle all the niceties and affections he and his kind wife (We called them Opa and Oma) lavished on my wife, baby and me during the two years we lived in apartment behind his house. But he made a two bedroom home available there to us at about 75 dollars a month to fill that vow that he would care for Allied Soldiers the way he had been cared for. I was an E-5 American Tank Commander. When the D-MArk became more expensive, he lowered our rent!! His wife cared for my wife and child like they were her own!! He sent us Christmas Cards here in America until he died - -

Cruelty may get a short term answer, but it also guarantees long term hatred and butchery - -
Kindness can remove the sword from the hand for ever - - Think about it - -

[QUOTE]Originally posted by greywolfghost:
Cruelty may get a short term answer, but it also guarantees long term hatred and butchery
Kindness can remove the sword from the hand for ever - - Think about it - - [ QUOTE]

Greywolf, you not only learned a lesson, but you also learned humility from the born again former U-Boat crew member.

His actions following the war, was a self imposed legacy to redeem his self in the eyes of GOD.

I have at times thought of rendering some really weird forms of gaining information, only to have the Good Lord intervene allowing me to realize that "the squeaky wheel gets the lubrication", "that honey attracts more then does vinegar." I feel sure there are better terms of description, but I fail to be able to grasp any at the time.

I sincerely feel that any person who is brought up under the rule of "DO UNTO OTHERES AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO TO YOU." will at the right time choose the correct method of interrogation.

Now, with that said; do I consider "water boarding" as a form of torture? Do I consider bright lights, loud music, noises, even bamboo splintering as forms of torture? No, they are no more then a method of incipience, misery, and discomfort; actually. My right outer finger has a white 1/8" scar, that never fills out, going from the nail to the quick. When nail grows our over a 1/8" long, there is a "V" in the finger nail. Thus, all the nails are kept short. This was from a piece of bamboo that found it's way up into the finger almost to the knuckle.

Those who undergo forms of interrogation will survive in accordance to their own beliefs as well as the extent of the methods of interrogation. Even the strong are only capable of so much pain from broken bones, electrical shock, fire, and drowning. The human body is made to withstand pain, but one must realize there is a saturation point, and at that time you will say more then Name, Rank, and SSN. What comes out again depends on the individual and "his" persona. It is advisable to be as initiative and as believable as possible, but Never a Smart A**. Most usually all this will serve is more "Whoopin"....®

O.K. so torture is bad. So what should we say tonight to the next 3,000 victims of the next 2001 massacre. They'll be dead before we come up with a good answer. There is no other civilized answer. If there is, I am unaware of it, other than we are no different than they are. How many more people were murdered today by bombs or other forms of misery that could have been prevented had our politicians had a little more enthusiasem in saving their lives.

Saving the life of one American, one Australian, or any of our allies or just one ordinary person in the world who is decent is something we should take seriously.

Fankhouser,

I understand your visceral response. 9-11 stirs strong emotions. What I'm trying to get at is that decisions made on the basis of emotions usually don't yield results worth bragging about.

re: torture. My point was, and still is, that even if you take the good/bad - moral/immoral factor out of the 'enhanced interrogations' equation, the only questions we have left to ask ourselves are - Does it work? Does it get results? - and the answer is always the same...No.

The most effective interrogators in history have been those who have never abused or mistreated their subjects in any way. Not because they much cared for the comfort or well-being of the prisoners they were questioning, but because they were results-motivated. The only method which mattered were those which produced results...accurate, reliable, actionable intelligence.

Ask the guys tortured as POWs in Vietnam if that kind of stuff got them to spill anything of value. Nick Rowe told me. The answer was always the same. If it didn't work then, you think the pain factor is any more motivating towards the truth now? Inflict enough pain and any human can be broken past numbness, and can be made to say anything...but will it be truth, or just what the subject thinks the interrogator wants to hear? What do you think?

You want results, use interrogation techniques proven for years to work.
You want revenge and a sadistic adrenal rush, break bones, use the flying cross, the waterboard, the pliers, the bamboo shoots, the radio-telephone generator...but don't pretend it's getting you anything useful, much less saving lives.

I recommend you read
"The Interrogator: The Story of Hanns Joachim Scharff: Master Interrogator of the Luftwaffe"

SinePariDonster:

Maybe you're right, but if you're wrong or a little off course, many more people will be blown to bits. What do we tell their mothers and fathers, sisters and brothers, wives and husbands. Do we tell them we're sorry? We read the book. It said to be kind to our killers. What do we tell them? Was there a bomb on the plane heading to France from Brazil? We'll probably never know. Our government won't say. I'm not a do-gooder. I would like revenge for my nation and my people, not a lot maybe, but a little. As for Mr. T.B. Bechtel, I'm glad he said what he said and hope he has the courage to continue.

quote:

Originally posted by Fankhouser:
SinePariDonster:

Maybe you're right, but if you're wrong or a little off course, many more people will be blown to bits. What do we tell their mothers and fathers, sisters and brothers, wives and husbands. Do we tell them we're sorry? We read the book. It said to be kind to our killers. What do we tell them? Was there a bomb on the plane heading to France from Brazil? We'll probably never know. Our government won't say. I'm not a do-gooder. I would like revenge for my nation and my people, not a lot maybe, but a little. As for Mr. T.B. Bechtel, I'm glad he said what he said and hope he has the courage to continue.

Young man, personally I think you are beyond help. However, being one who has never given up on "lost causes" I will make one more attempt to defuse your thoughts.

Backing up a few decades, to 1960+; over my thirteen years with SF I accrued roughly 7 years teaching various SF related subjects. One which I was rather gifted at was Psychological Warfare. As a junior NCO at the early times I received many accolades from senior NCO Student who attended the schools.

Let's start with "every action will have a reaction". With that, allow me to say, all the "reactions" fall into the good or the bad side of action taken. You are taking the "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" when some times one needs to "turn the other cheek" in order to receive positive results.

Don just got through rendering a very elegant response to you, and you turned right around blasting away at his theory. Which is a very negative "reaction".

My very personal reaction is "one shot, one kill." There is no torture and no revenge, just a matter of eliminating the problem. Wartime is the only time one can legally get away with such an action, while the free world goes bonkers over misuse of prisoners, rode side bombs, etc., etc.

The Terrorist who have no feelings towards others, and create a daily field of carnage have no place in this world, but they are here, and we have to deal with them as best we can.

Now, if I was to take you out to the Shed and begin a form of torture beginning with pulling out your fingernails, then the toenails, would you start giving me answers to my questions? I think not. You may start talking but the words would be worthless pieces of battle field information. Information gained from pain never has been of value. Just as Don and I have been trying to explain to you.

A true story of 1961, when I was on a Special Operations Mission in the country of Laos. The unit we was with was a front line Airborne unit. We always ate with the Staff, what they ate, we ate and so forth. One sunny morning deep in the jungles, the Bn CO excused himself to attend to a serious matter, with the Company Commander and First Sergeant. After a few minutes the Bn CO took out his .45 and blew the head of a soldier away. The trooper had been caught sleeping on guard duty the night before. We thought this as serious military justice. Not only was it positive reaction to an action, but if also served as a psychological effect to the other troops. No one was caught sleeping again, or at least not for the rest of my stay.

Psychological actions serve as beneficial as does any other form of interrogation, that is successful in nature, and more humane in nature also.

No this does not, and never will stop the atrocities of the Terrorist, but it does make the American less ugly.

I have said enough, and if this does not sway your thoughts somewhat, you are on your own, and I doubt if you will hear from any of the BTDT Crew again.........Ringland OUT

TAKE CARE, STAY SAFE, KEEP SMILING, HAPPY HUNTING, AND MAY THE GOOD LORD KEEP A WATCHFUL EYE OVER YOU AT ALL TIMES...........JimRingland
ISAIAS...6:8-13...AND I HEARD THE VOICE OF THE LORD, SAYING: WHOM SHALL I SEND, AND WHO SHALL GO FOR US? AND I SAID: LO, HERE AM I, SEND ME. AND HE SAID: GO, AND THOU SHALT SAY TO THIS PEOPLE:......
AND I SAID, HOW LONG OH LORD?
AND HE SAID: UNTIL THE CITIES BE WASTED WITHOUT INHABITANT.......Ringo

http://sfac82.org

I believe the situation dictates the use of torture. What constitutes Torture? If I capture a known enemy that knows where Ringo and Don are located, and I only have 24 hours to get them back would I torture this enemy knowing that I had at least a 50/50 chance of getting my two Team Mates back? My feelings and experiences in a combat zone tell me Yes I will. However, my soul tells me no I shouldn't. Thats about how I feel and I don't think I can change those feelings even if I tried.

Remember the old World War II movies where the Japanese were depicted as torturing Americans, not necessarily to get information, but just for the enjoyment of it? Remember that scene in The Green Berets where the village chief had been tortured to death after his wife and daughters had been raped and murdered in front of him? Weren't those scenes put in with the express purpose of creating absolute hate for the enemy and even to recruit young kids like me and you to go fight and kill all those bassturds??

Well, it works both ways... If we descend into the depths, it will only galvanize our enemies into deeper hatred of us. It will prove we are nothing but double-talking, hypocritical monsters, and it will justify in their minds even greater cruelties towards us and our innocent ones - -

As a kid, I thought orientals, arabs, and indians must be such heartless, savage, and blood-thirsty people that they could resort to the things movies depicted them as doing all the time. Over many years I've learned that a dark segment of all societies are capable of such things - even here - -- -

There must be something wrong with me, I have no sympathy for those who hate us, who desire to kill us wipe and wipe us out.

Torture seems fitting for the crazed murderers!
I was being facitious, when I said, "there must be something wrong with me".

quote:

Originally posted by SinePariDonster:
Mike,

Interesting point of view - certainly spoken with the testosterone rather than the higher brain functions of 'civilized' homo sapiens.

So if we set aside little inconveniences like Geneva, Hague, Law of Land Warfare and basic human morality and look at torture from a strictly tactical and pragmatic point of view, we are left with this:

1) Torture has never been a reliable method of extracting accurate or actionable intelligence.

2) Torture has always proven to be self-defeating, as what information that is gathered is done so under duress, making all further information questionable.

3) He is a loud-mouth, blow-hard, attention-seeker for years, but the essence of what Jesse Ventura said is true and I will happily co-sign it with further modification:

Give me a waterboard, an hour and Dick Cheney...or anyone else and I will have them confess to the Tate Murders...or anything else I tell them they are accused of. No exceptions.

Don

I was told by members of the Marine Corps' 17th CIT(Counter-Intelligence Team) that torture doesn't work. All you get is someone telling what you want to here, not what you want to know and that was back in 1968.
The Army's manual on interrogation says that torture doesn't work. It was written by individuals with years of experience in interrogation techniques.
Years ago during the Franco dictatorship, there was a sort of joke in Spain that the Guardia Civil, they were and are the national police force of Spain, could get anyone to confess to anything, too prove the point and individual who had been arrested for thievery was turned of to the Guardia to confess.
After several days being under "interrogacion especial"(special interrogation) which was a euphamism for torture. The head "special interrogator" came out and said "He didn't confess to stealing, but he did confess to to assasinating Generalisimo Franco.

quote:

Originally posted by Bergy46:
There must be something wrong with me, I have no sympathy for those who hate us, who desire to kill us wipe and wipe us out.

Torture seems fitting for the crazed murderers!
I was being facitious, when I said, "there must be something wrong with me".

It is if you're looking for revenge. however it isn't if you're looking for reliable information.

Incidentally my highest praise to all who are posting in this topic. It is polite though the subject is deeply controversial. The same subject came up in another military forum I belong to. It turned into a shouting match and I was suspended because I refused to change my statement that torture is wrong.

You all think what you may, but I for one think that getting the job done is the end result.

If it takes torture, then do it, if it takes maybe a act of kindness then do it. If it takes lying though your teeth, then do it.

Each situation is different and should be approach as such, then the right "Need" be applied. You might not be 100% correct in your choice of "Need". But if it gets the job done and the answers you seek..then go for it.

If anyone of you held information that was needed to prevent an attemp on the President life, I would use what I need to use to extract that information from you. It won't be a Tea Party, that I can promise, but, I can promise you will answer.

quote:

Originally posted by Bergy46:
There must be something wrong with me, I have no sympathy for those who hate us, who desire to kill us wipe and wipe us out.

Torture seems fitting for the crazed murderers!
I was being facitious, when I said, "there must be something wrong with me".

So, who do you recruit to do this torture? I mean, what person does this stuff without coming out a mental defective too? You want to live with your wife and kids next door to somebody who makes people scream in agony in fear of death for a living?? What do we do with people who have done this time after time, once their "services" are no longer needed. You can't just put them on a shelf until the next blood-letting takes place. Maybe police departments can secretly hire them to clear up a few cold cases around the country?? Maybe just take them out and shoot them, too - like vicious dogs that can't be allowed out of country...? What if it's your kid that's doing the torturing?? What are you going to get back when it's over - the sweet kid you used to take to church every Sunday, or some cynical heartless creature that has no problem with slowly pushing a bayonet into some jihadist's stomach - male or female makes no difference - as long as the answers come?

When we start going that route, they've won - because they've turned us into what they claimed we were all along - -

Just as well go over there and kill everything that moves, the way the Russians tried; then come back here and do it, too... It worked against the Sioux and the Apache... I guess it could work again - -