quote:

Originally posted by K9Jake:

quote:

Originally posted by thorin001:
There is no compelling societal reason for MJ to be illegal. The only reason is because some people seem to think if somebody enjoys something it must be immoral. It no more debilatating than alchohol and much less deadly and addictive than tabacco. If society is willing to tolerate those two chemicals there is no justification for outlawing MJ.

My primary objection to the illegality of MJ is not that I want to smoke it (the stuff makes me sick), it is that I object to legislating morality.

A certain level of 'morality policing' is inevitable, and neccessary. Otherwise ALL drugs would be legal (among many other moral issues). Anyone who thinks that would be a picnic is sorely mistaken. Most people are cool with things so long as it doesn't directly affect them or their family. But, get a couple of your children strung out on drugs and/or dead, and now they will turn right back around and blame the government for something they asked for in the first place. Even in a free society there are rules. There has to be, otherwise it is an Anarchist society.

I've also brought up the Law Enforcement point in this type of discussion before. We have FSM's or FST's for alcohol and drugs(Horizontal Gaze Nystagmus). We have portable breath test (alcohol), and of course we have the Intox machine. How exactly do we go about a portable MJ drug test on the side of the road, on top of the alcohol test we already perform? Can you smoke and drive? If so, how much? And if an amount is determined, then how can I test you to determine that level of 'intoxication' has been reached? And thats just a few minor questions about MJ. If you want ALL drugs to be legal (because who is the govt to tell us anything), then how do I test for crack, PCP, H, X, and so on and so forth? While we can draw blood and perform drug test, we certainly aren't going to do this on the side of the highway.

I understand that there will be some legislated morality in any society, but it should be kept to the absolute minimum. There should be standards based solely on the drug's impact on society as a whole. Drugs that fall within those standards should be legal, those that are outside them should be illegal. What we have now is based on 'I like that drug so it is okay' and 'I do not like that drug so it is illegal'. That kind of thing must stop.


As for testing, just because there is no test today doesn't mean that we can's make one. There are already blood tests that only require you to prick a finger, there is no reason that they could not be expanded to detect other chemicals.

OK Mr. This member, You obviously have a biased opinion that has no basis in reality as you have no idea how much damage canabis causes to people and their decision making ability. It is far worse than cigarettes for you lungs, and worse for your brain than alcohol. I have seen it myself, and I have read it in my research. So if you want to turn your life into a a bowl of cold oatmeal, knock yourself out. But to advocate the legalization of this drug is idiotic at best.[/QUOTE]

Actually what you are saying is not totally true. There have been many conflicting studies. I know, I know "one joint is worse than 4 or 5 cigarrettes". Yet according to the United Kingdoms government report, using cannabis is less dangerous than tobacco, prescription drugs, and alcohol in social harms, physical harm and addiction. WOW, not isn't that conflicting. The simple fact of the matter is it is really difficult to know which studies are true. Most of the studies done have a hidden agenda. What we "do" know is that smoking anything period is bad for you.

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Originally posted by thorin001:

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Originally posted by mrssgtsupergrunt:
MJ is a hallucinogenic... what happens when you hallucinate is, your brain is bleeding, that is what makes you do it! not to mention now a days it is almost impossible to get clean weed, people lace it with stuff because they say it enhances it.

You are either delusional or have been fed some truely bogus propaganda. MJ is not a hallucinogen, not by itself. Hallucinogens do not cause hemoraging, they affect how the brain releases neurotransmitters.
As for not getting clean weed, given the number of people I have seen fail urinalysis for just THC I would have to say that you are wrong there too.

o.k., I am sorry...you are right, you probably know way more about drugs than what I was taught at NA, I am sooo sorry. LOL
Anyways, I did not say hallucinating caused your brain to bleed, I said you hallucinate because your brain is bleeding, but that is just what I was told by professionals, so go figure.

Let him have 155's landing on his head cause the cannon cockers were stoned, then he will understand DRUGS ARE DANGEROUS!

Yep #'s I do have to agree with you on this one, my god I just get beside myself waiting to wake up in the morning with that good old feeling.

quote:

Originally posted by nemesis1960:
Let him have 155's landing on his head cause the cannon cockers were stoned, then he will understand DRUGS ARE DANGEROUS!

Yeah... Because something like that could never happen under the influence of (perfectly legal) alcohol, right?

(Personally, I don't think anything like that would ever happen and it's a ridiculous stretch of the imagination to think otherwise).

quote:

Originally posted by mrssgtsupergrunt:

quote:

Originally posted by thorin001:

quote:

Originally posted by mrssgtsupergrunt:
MJ is a hallucinogenic... what happens when you hallucinate is, your brain is bleeding, that is what makes you do it! not to mention now a days it is almost impossible to get clean weed, people lace it with stuff because they say it enhances it.

You are either delusional or have been fed some truely bogus propaganda. MJ is not a hallucinogen, not by itself. Hallucinogens do not cause hemoraging, they affect how the brain releases neurotransmitters.
As for not getting clean weed, given the number of people I have seen fail urinalysis for just THC I would have to say that you are wrong there too.

o.k., I am sorry...you are right, you probably know way more about drugs than what I was taught at NA, I am sooo sorry. LOL
Anyways, I did not say hallucinating caused your brain to bleed, I said you hallucinate because your brain is bleeding, but that is just what I was told by professionals, so go figure.

quote:

what happens when you hallucinate is, your brain is bleeding

Looks like a stated cause and effect to me; hallucination as cause. Might not be what you meant, but it is what you typed.

According to what you have posted here I obviously do know significantly more about drugs than you do. I know the differeces between a narcotic, a hallucinogen and a stimulant.

quote:

Originally posted by joshuacarnes:

quote:

Originally posted by nemesis1960:
Let him have 155's landing on his head cause the cannon cockers were stoned, then he will understand DRUGS ARE DANGEROUS!

Yeah... Because something like that could never happen under the influence of (perfectly legal) alcohol, right?

(Personally, I don't think anything like that would ever happen and it's a ridiculous stretch of the imagination to think otherwise).

Sorry Josh It did happen back in the 70's more than once and I agree BOOZE is a drug!

well, sir...you ain't worth my time arguing so I will leave this subject.... I am a better person than to sit here and brag and argue about how much I know about drugs... personally, I am not proud to know that much about drugs...and I am not that insecure to be arguing about who knows more about something so stupid. I was just saying what I was told when I went to my NA meetings when I was younger. I may be wrong, wouldn't be the first time, but I still do not think it should be made legal, and yes, i agree that cigs and alcohol do kill people... but just because they are legal does not mean we should make more things that are dangerous legal.

I thought trolls lived under bridges, it seems this one lives under an outhouse.

Imagine surgeons on drugs, a stoned Cardiac surgeon, operates on a patients lung instead of the heart. A stoned Neurosurgeon puts the wrong shunt in a patients and the brain collapses. The patient is place on life support because his surgeon was blitzed out of their mind.

quote:

Originally posted by mrssgtsupergrunt:
well, sir...you ain't worth my time arguing so I will leave this subject.... I am a better person than to sit here and brag and argue about how much I know about drugs... personally, I am not proud to know that much about drugs...and I am not that insecure to be arguing about who knows more about something so stupid. I was just saying what I was told when I went to my NA meetings when I was younger. I may be wrong, wouldn't be the first time, but I still do not think it should be made legal, and yes, i agree that cigs and alcohol do kill people... but just because they are legal does not mean we should make more things that are dangerous legal.

We seem to have a different philosophical view on the role of government. I don't think that it is the government's job to protect people from themselves.
I would like consistancy from our regulatory agencies. If booze and tabacco are legal there is zero justification for outlawing MJ. Set a standard, not randomly pick and choose.

quote:

Originally posted by Bergy77:
I thought trolls lived under bridges, it seems this one lives under an outhouse.

Imagine surgeons on drugs, a stoned Cardiac surgeon, operates on a patients lung instead of the heart. A stoned Neurosurgeon puts the wrong shunt in a patients and the brain collapses. The patient is place on life support because his surgeon was blitzed out of their mind.

Imagine the same guy drunk, or hung over, or suffering from niccitine withdrawal. Same results.

Do not blame the drug for the actions of the user. The user knew that he was impairing himself when he took the drug, and hence should be fully responsible for any actions while under the influence.

o.k., but why legalize more things that could be addicting? Why not try to ban alcohol or cigs if you feel that strongly about it, why try to make more legal?

Why not make it all illegal, Cannabis, Alcohol, Tobacco. It should be across the board with those types of things. How can we justify allowing some and not others.
Certainly serving with a teammate who uses tobacco, (light, flash, smoke) could compromise your safety or not be able to keep up.
An alcoholic can makes soooo many mistakes that it would be obvious.
Cannabis could cause any number of snafus and could leave a team in the dark on so many issues.

Why not get rid of it all. We've read the threads on the "quit smoking" issue, we've seen the threads on "sober days" counts. Not much from the cannabis users, probably because of it being illegal.
Regardless it all causes harm to the body and should be made illegal.

Ok you can slam me now for objecting to your "choice".

that is what I was trying to say SGT, why make more legal?

quote:

I said you hallucinate because your brain is bleeding, but that is just what I was told by professionals

I don't know what kind of "professionals" told you that, but it's not true.

To clarify: if your brain is bleeding, that's what is known as a hemorrhagic stroke. It CAN lead to hallucinations, depending on what part of the brain it occurs in. However, it can cause somatic effects without any hallucinations at all.

Drug-induced hallucinations are not a result of hemorrhage. They are a result of chemical changes in the way neurons function.

People also may hallucinate due to psychosis. This also does not involve bleeding in the brain, but chemical changes in the neurons.

S7

well, like I said, I could be wrong...I ain't afraid to say I am, thanx for clearing that up fot me...I herd that in a 12 steps program i was in... who knows how accurate they are...but again, I am sorry for being wrong, but still think that drugs should not be legalized...

quote:

I understand that there will be some legislated morality in any society, but it should be kept to the absolute minimum. There should be standards based solely on the drug's impact on society as a whole. Drugs that fall within those standards should be legal, those that are outside them should be illegal. What we have now is based on 'I like that drug so it is okay' and 'I do not like that drug so it is illegal'. That kind of thing must stop.


As for testing, just because there is no test today doesn't mean that we can's make one. There are already blood tests that only require you to prick a finger, there is no reason that they could not be expanded to detect other chemicals.

I am not saying a test cannot be created if there is not already one. But you have to make it user friendly and Law Enforcement ready as well. You need to have a portable machine in a cruiser already packed to the brim with gadgets. You need to be ready to retrain every police officer in America in preparation for the changeover. I just don't realistically envision cops doing bloodwork on the side of the road, but I suppose stranger things could happen. I only bring it up, because something of that nature needs be fully implemented and in 100% swing before legalizing anything like that (which I don't particularly agree with in the first place). But most people seem to think its just as easy as magic. You just snap you fingers, legalize it, and 'poof', there will be no problems.
Lets not forget, we are talking about a country that has already declared war on cigarettes (more or less). I simply think that legalizing it would just be opening Pandoras Box. Just like with anything else, give someone an inch, they take a mile.

People make a lot of money from cigarettes and alcohol so it doesnt matter that they literally kill huge numbers of people every year. Meanwhile a harmless drug like pot which is impossible to OD on and throughout history has never killed anybody is illegal. anybody who hasnt been too brainwashed can see that a drug that kills people must be worse than one that doesnt. Plus alcohol makes you more prone to violence or sexual assault (both for and against) not to mention no hangover with pot. I dont think we should outlaw alcohol or cigs but we should use common sense about marijuana. not be scared of it. It is almost harmless. Over the years the government has put out a lot of propaganda about marijuana so naturally people who go with the flow and don't really know much about it wouldn't want it to be legal. they just try to pump you full of fear. It says a lot that we wont let the dying people of our country smoke pot legally, even when it actually does help them medically.

I just came back to this thread after a few days...
I see most of you talk about how drugs ARE a problem in society, and i agree. But we should all look into really why that is the case. If drugs caused addiction in everyone who used them then i would agree with you. But really the case is that the most uneducated are the ones who abuse drugs the most. I'm not just referring to the diadvantaged lower classes but america as a whole.

In forigen countries drugs like cannabis is used more correctly for some reason (aparantly)
"The Netherlands most probably has a far lower number of cannabis users than previously assumed. According to research into drug use in Tilburg and Utrecht, the estimated number of cannabis users in the Netherlands is between 220.000 and 400.000. This represents 1.7 to 3.0 percent of the population ages 12 years and older." "39.9 percent of the Tilburg population and 41.0 percent of the people of Utrecht smoke cigarettes. This is almost the same percentage as in Amsterdam (40.8 percent). The consumption of alcohol in the capital is slightly lower than in the other two towns. There, 69.3 percent had used alcohol in the last month, compared to 73.5 percent in Utrecht and 74.9 percent in Tilburg."
also in areas in central america more indegenious people use more powerfull drugs that here in the states are schedule 1 and consequently deemed no medical value yet studies with some compounds have shown proof to help cluster headaches, post tramatic stress, and other psycological problems with great effectivity, yet as the law stands now, reasearch is extremly limited and has been for awhile (like back in 1980's doctor found out how good MDMA works for PTS), these medicines work Really well at fixing serious life threatening problems.

Regarding recreational use, recreation_is_medicinal in the absolute sence it embetters everything about us, that is true recreation. The problem with drugs, people and recreation is knowlege too, proper respect(like teaching kids that it is posible for anyone to crave some drugs more than food), and this ties into Considering mindSET AND surrounding physical, emotional SETTINGs before you use. these things are not streesed enough (unlike other areas in the world handeling serious drugs quite safely such as the very effective ibogane used for addiction treatment yet Sched.1! and deemed no value) in parental education whitch is the premire source for drug education, not your buddies you when to algebra with back in high school.

It is the government who is shaping the drug problems in america by not allowing education, because of fear of society lacking coherence (or a effenitly uniform entity working together) and from the drug use dividing the united states.

Yet what i wrote above touches on freedom.

I hate to say im right but look around elsewhere in the world and compare thier drug use tendencies.

O and sargeant_green, i'm not trying to slam anyone; common sence/proper use lacks with only with some drug users. With any frontier there is risk, but cannabis, and other drugs have a great affinity to help(ex. cannabis for cancer), cure(Phenethylamines for depression etc), prevent(taking a entheogen in combination with meditation for peace of mind and increased focus) probelms we face in america.

Google real information on drugs by those who have done actual reasearch at grander levels than the NIDA or DEA.

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