quote:

Originally posted by 67NOV:
WHile stationed at Ft. Bliss, call of Juarez, was when Texas bars closed & you still wanted to party, you got the "Call of Juarez"!

Nope not today's Ft. Bliss. Off limits. When I was last stationed there(2003) one needed a DA31 for a border pass and a SITREP from the BN S-2 on the policitial climit of the region. Well now Juarez IS A WAR ZONE! Mexican Soldiers come HERE to drink...fewer drive bys. The police chief of Juarez came to El Paso to recover from wounds from his OWN OFFICERS! I read that last week in the second largest city in Mexico the locial police pulled weapons on the Feds because they were busting locals on drug charges. That is why I made the comment of the game being real life, but I meant it in jest. South of the border has turned back the clock to the days of John Wesley Hardin's day...And the wall is still not done. On the good side, our Border Patrol is bustin' druggies.

SgtBJH, do you still see that nice smog cloud that hangs over Juarez? It was a litle rough way back when I was there('81-'84), but if you stayed in certain areas you were good to go. Makes you think that folk on Bliss should be lock & loaded.

Yeah, smog is sometimes a problem but I now live in Chaparral,NM. 35 miles from Whitesands.
The copper smelting plant is closed so that is a polution source removed.

quote:

Originally posted by sullivan013:
By 'wargame' I mean the old Avalon Hill and Simulations Publications Inc. such as PanzerBlitz, Midway and Afrika Korps.

+http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalon_Hill

"Video games" hadn't been invented when I was a kid.

The point I was making was my brothers and I 'play-fought' with everything from bamboo stalks (swords and spears) to pine cones, acorns, and snowballs. Yet only three of five joined the Army with the other two becoming Civil Engineers.

None turned into serial killers, amazingly enough.

We had sports, hiking and fishing too, but our imagination was not censored by our parents for violence, nor were violent books like 'The Count of Monte Cristo', 'Treasure Island', 'The Three Musketeers', or 'Iron Men with Wooden Wings' witheld from our tender little minds.


As someone else said, 20 years ago it was Dungeons and Dragons. 40 years ago it was tie-dye and beads. 50 years ago it was a young man's music and the way he swung his hips while singing. 70 years ago it was 'Zoot Suiters'. 90 years ago it was "what those soldiers learned in France!".

All have been blamed for every sort of social ill, to include homicide rates and disregard for authority and 'good taste'.

Congratulations for carrying the torch.

Sullivan013

Oh, speaking of vid games. The Base Commander just before I left (PATRIOT soldier) was trying to get a vid game made which would train PATRIOT crews on PCs. A great idea since they are so expensive to train on. Did he get it? I have no idea.

Back when I was a Weapons Controller and "F-16 Fight Falcon" came out, I bought it just to see what it was like. It was so accurate that I suggested all our Weapons Controllers get a copy (I was Squadron Training Officer), since it gave such a good, "in the cockpit" picture of what pilots go through and see during intercepts and air refuelings. I would spend an hour or two on the computer before going to Control whenever possible. But big difference here is that I WAS training to kill. My first call to a set of fighters to start an Intercept would go something like this:

"Thud 1 Flight, Warlock 9, KILL two bandits, Two-Three-Zero at Twenty Miles, High, headed Three-One-Zero, medium aspect, lead-trail five mile split!"

That "KILL" command was no joke, even in training. It meant the fighters under my Control could simulate firing on the "enemy" aircraft from "Beyond Visual Range", because the word "Bandit" meant their was no chance of them being "friendlies." No game here - but practice for the real thing...and that's the point. The deep subconscious doesn't know any difference. Mouth get dry, palms sweat - as the aircraft approach the Merge, voice intonation goes up and radio traffic is more rapid, clipped, somewhat frantic - - Top Gun all the way. An F-16 Pilot got killed out at Wendover where I used to Control in just the last two days. Did somebody miss a call?? It is the ultimate Video Game, because if you tell them to KILL! - They will . . .

Now, back to kids and violent Movies and Games . . . do you ever have to tell young kids before or after, "It's only a game. None of this is real. It's only a Movie. None of this is real."?? Why? The reason is simple - you are already assuming the movie or game might mess with the kid's mental wiring and programing, so you are trying to do some preemptive hard-wiring yourself, but do you really think your few words can compete in the deep subconscious with the vivid imagery and sound pounded into your kid's eyes and ears with today's technology??? Yeh - right...

I equate it to all the images, sights, sounds tastes, and smells I was subjected to in the Army during the Viet Nam era. My time was spent in tanks in Europe, but all it takes is one sound to bring all that back any time, any place, day or night - - the sound of a Huey Copter or something similar going by...

That's how the mind works. It accumulates everything, loses nothing, wraps itself around it all and something called "personality" comes back out. Good stuff in, good personality out. Trash in, trash out - -

Perhaps my experience in life is odd, because I disagree with your basic premise.

While there are learned life experiences that impact people, not all of it impacts their personality. It may change behavior under certain stimuli, but not so much their basic personality.

I'm young enough to remember my childhood fairly vividly. I was the last of eight children and could virtually write a book on interfamily/intersibling communication. I'm old enough to have grown children of my own in addition to my last one still in middle school. I've training hundreds of youngsters both in the military and civilian life and I'm fairly well-traveled.

Through all that I can say that most people's personality is fairly consistant throughout life, even after 'significant emotional events' that one might assume would 'change' them. Some succumb to erratic behavior outside influences, but even in the event of a couple of very troubling events, the vast majority of people are changed only slightly by their environment and experiences.

Even in the case of PTSD (I've known several people, either undiagnosed or fully diagnosed), this is the case. In fact, it is one of the difficult things about PTSD diagnosis and treatment: the victims 'seem normal' for the majority of direct observation - only certain stimuli bring out certain erratic behaviors, very few of them violent (it is EXTREMELY Rare, in fact).

Does this give me insight to mass murderers or terrorists? No, but it is enough for me to think it is VERY unlikely that this behavior stems from violent acts experienced vicariously through the medium of an electronic screen and buttons on a controller. No matter how realistic the graphics and sound, even the most immature six-year-old is skilled enough to see it 'only as a game.'

Sullivan013

I am waiting to hear why this young man walked in and shot his former High School Football Coach after being away from the place for several years. Will we get the full picture of this person? I hope so. In the case of Suleiman Tolivk, a refugee from Bosnia/Serbia, he was a loner here in America. His parents and the police would make no commitment to what set him off - still won't. But before he went on a rampage in a Mall shooting at everything that moved, he immersed himself in violent video games at home after pretty much dropping out of school, and spent a lot of time conversing with a local radical Islamic cleric. Suddenly, he walked into a Mall carrying a sawed of 12 gauge and pistols on Valentines Day evening and started shooting down everyone in sight. He would have killed a lot more than 5 had not an off-duty policeman carrying a gun brought him under fire and made him stop hunting, until SWAT team members finally killed him - -

Certainly, not every kid will do such a thing, by why bury our culture in stimulus that will train and trigger those who will?? Doesn't that raise the percentages instead of lower them??

As a 2nd Amendment supporter and gun owner, I cringe every time I see another movie or video game created just to over exploit the miss-use of firearms. It simply fuels the Gun Control liberals, and potentially will trigger the next gun-wielding killer... Why pay into that!?!?

I used to dance to Chubby Checker's music and a few others as well........there are probably still a few girls out there hiding from me!!!

T

G.W.G.

I find myself in limited agreement with you.

My oldest daughter, who is 42, In my opinion, has some issues that should be addressed, anger being one of them.

She has for all of her adult life, been very nearly addicted to video games. She will sit for hours playing them. It had her husband worried for a while, some time back. I at first thought it was simple escapeism but have wondered over the years about it.

My fourteen year old has had a strict limit placed on time spent playing them and thankfully is very athletic and would much rather play ball, skateboard, basket ball and being somewhat wierd, like her dad, even dodgeball!!

I would think that some have a problem with reality in some form and nobody notices, till it's too late, that there IS a problem with what they are watching and playing at.

The way I see this, is as if it has become a socially acceptable form of pulling the wings of flies or killing small animals, to play these games so much. Marks of a budding sociopath.

T

quote:

Originally posted by tawodi:
G.W.G.

I find myself in limited agreement with you.

My oldest daughter, who is 42, In my opinion, has some issues that should be addressed, anger being one of them.

She has for all of her adult life, been very nearly addicted to video games. She will sit for hours playing them. It had her husband worried for a while, some time back. I at first thoght it was simple escapeism but have wondered over the years about it.

My fourteen year old has had a strict limit placed on time spent playing them and thankfully is very athletic and would much rather play ball, skateboard, basket ball and being somewhat wierd, like her dad, even dodgeball!!

I would think that some have a problem with reality in some form and nobody notices, till it's too late, that there IS a problem with what they are watching and playing at.

The way I see this is as if it has become a socially acceptable form of pulling the wings of flies or killing small animals, to play these games so much. Marks of a budding sociopath.

T

Hello Bruce...been a long time. I have 4 kids and my two oldest are 20 and 19 and still heavily into the games! They both have pretty good heads on their shoulders despite all the time they spend on them but I do agree that some of those games are pretty out there and make me raise my eyebrows when I see them.

WOW!!!

Hi Mike, how have you been? Good to see you're still on the planet!!!

Bruce

quote:

Originally posted by tawodi:
WOW!!!

Hi Mike, how have you been? Good to see you're still on the planet!!!

Bruce

I'm doing good, still working two jobs to get by but hey...at least I have jobs to go to!!
Family is doing well also. How are things in your corner of the world?

quote:

I am waiting to hear why this young man walked in and shot his former High School Football Coach

Couldn't begin to tell you why. I'll add that my knowledge of Lizzie Bordon's life before she killed her parents doesn't give me a clue either. Since that happened even before radio was invented, there are few reasons that I can place on violence in videos/games/culture.

About the only thing similiar between them is that they both brushed their teeth. Maybe we should be concentrating inexplicable murder 'prevention' as a function of dental hygene?

Makes about as much sense as curtailing violence in video games.

Sullivan013

quote:

Originally posted by tawodi:
G.W.G.

I find myself in limited agreement with you.

My oldest daughter, who is 42, In my opinion, has some issues that should be addressed, anger being one of them.

She has for all of her adult life, been very nearly addicted to video games. She will sit for hours playing them. It had her husband worried for a while, some time back. I at first thought it was simple escapeism but have wondered over the years about it.

My fourteen year old has had a strict limit placed on time spent playing them and thankfully is very athletic and would much rather play ball, skateboard, basket ball and being somewhat wierd, like her dad, even dodgeball!!

I would think that some have a problem with reality in some form and nobody notices, till it's too late, that there IS a problem with what they are watching and playing at.

The way I see this, is as if it has become a socially acceptable form of pulling the wings of flies or killing small animals, to play these games so much. Marks of a budding sociopath.

T

It is no doubt that electronic devices fit into what seems to be an addictive niche for a lot of people. It may simply be that 90% of the grey matter going unused hates being a vacuum... My kids didn't have video games and such. We were always at sports events, doing sports events, camping, hiking, fishing, etc etc - traveling the country....

When I go to their houses, their kids are always doing these "wii" games of running, jumping, karate-kicking, karate-kicking, star-trek laser sword fight, etc etc...

Take them outside to play catch, or a little soft ball, or any kind of lawn sports, and what would they rather do? Go back in the house and do the karate kicking, light saber stuff. If you keep them outside, what do they start doing? Karate kicking and grabbing sticks for light saber stuff... They don't want anything to do with real outdoor sports...

Luckily, my sons are not into the blood and guts video games, nor would they allow their kids to play such games - but what about the kids next door or up the street? And how hooked are they becoming on all that stuff...

Now, I don't know how many teenagers you've been associated with, but over the last 30 years, I've personally tried to teach about 6-8,000 and been able to observe about 30,000, give or take a few as a High School teacher and coach. I hope I managed some positive results and impressions over those years with all those kids - But one thing I observed with all too much regularity is how easily students are manipulated and changed by what various forms of media feeds them. "Welcome back Kotter" became a mainstay on TV's few channels when I was doing my student teaching, and almost immediately both the fashions and attitudes of that show appeared in the classroom in Utah. When Michael Jackson and Madonna started strutting in public in all their weird costumes and gloves, their appearance and attitudes came right in the classroom the next day, along with drug problems, etc. etc.. But that was just the tip of the iceberg...with Goth came all the chains and more and more weapons being found. Then rap and gangs and it got worse... I wrestled what looked like a .45 Auto from a student in a crowded hallway back in the '80s. It turned out to be a pellet gun, and they actually gave it back to the kid's parents. I told the principal it would only a matter of time before someone gets seriously hurt, then I went back in the Air Force during Desert Storm for 3 years. During that time, one of the coachs' kid shot himself in the head. Then Columbine came along - -

Now, I'm just trying to communicate that kids are EXTREMELY impressionable, and I mean clear up through their 20s. What ever they bombard themselves with shapes them just like a cookie-cutter, and the more emotional ones will act out their fantasies somehow - - If their fantasies and cravings are wrapped around stealing cars, going fast, and shooting people . . somebody is going to get hurt. . .again and again and again... Denial and rationalizing won't change that one bit. It will just assure that it will happen again and again and again... While the media moguls crank out more of the crap, get more of your millions, and continue to claim, as you, that nothing they do has any affect on young peoples minds - yeh right!

G.W.;

I taught at the high school level as well but only for a short time. I agree with every thing you have said here it is TRUE and PROVEN from observation.

Now most will disagree with us but we are not addressing those parents that have an active role in their kid's lives. It is the kids who are latch key kids with no real supervision or those who are in even worse straights who have almost do discipline or direction and are walking around boiling over with teenaged angst (anger for the uninitiated) which is ALWAYS there and looking for a way to break the percieved bonds of the adult structure around them.
( You're ruining my liiiife!!!) ( You can't run my life forever !!) (It's my life!!)

And all the other things they say and feel. Well they're right we can't, but we try to keep them alive till they CAN!!!

QUERY; Ever wondeer why Hollywood is so clean and beautiful? It's because they are dumping their garbage in YOUR living room, that's why!!!!

T

Organized religion corrupts more than any video game. It can also be used to sanction any evil one would apply it to. Remember what was on the Nazi SS belt buckle.

I would be the last to ban religion and I wouldn't ban video games either. Each individual must follow his own path and bears ultimate responsibility. Blaming video games for aberrant behavior is a copout because only a small percentage will elevate violence to a reality and those would have broken bad anyway.

It's similar to placing addiction upon a gateway drug. To an addictive personality, oxygen is the ultimate gateway drug.

quote:

Originally posted by navy8086:

quote:

Originally posted by NEMESIS1960:
So I assume GWG that I will become a serial killer because I play Violent Video Games? Or my son the Preacher will attack his flock because he plays Video games? No my friend that will not happen. The people you are talking about had mental problems before they ever played a video game and the signs were there but no one paid any attention least of all their parents.

20 years ago it was Dungeons and Dragons that got people up in arms.

Watch it! I'll cast a level 5 spell on you.

quote:

Originally posted by Thud357L:
Organized religion corrupts more than any video game. It can also be used to sanction any evil one would apply it to. Remember what was on the Nazi SS belt buckle.

I would be the last to ban religion and I wouldn't ban video games either. Each individual must follow his own path and bears ultimate responsibility. Blaming video games for aberrant behavior is a copout because only a small percentage will elevate violence to a reality and those would have broken bad anyway.

It's similar to placing addiction upon a gateway drug. To an addictive personality, oxygen is the ultimate gateway drug.

Violent movies and murderous video games target kids. That needs to be closely watched and regulated. The 3 mass killers I have referred to were all under 18!!

quote:

Originally posted by greywolfghost:

quote:

Originally posted by Thud357L:
Organized religion corrupts more than any video game. It can also be used to sanction any evil one would apply it to. Remember what was on the Nazi SS belt buckle.

I would be the last to ban religion and I wouldn't ban video games either. Each individual must follow his own path and bears ultimate responsibility. Blaming video games for aberrant behavior is a copout because only a small percentage will elevate violence to a reality and those would have broken bad anyway.

It's similar to placing addiction upon a gateway drug. To an addictive personality, oxygen is the ultimate gateway drug.

Violent movies and murderous video games target kids. That needs to be closely watched and regulated. The 3 mass killers I have referred to were all under 18!!

Understood but I'll bet you a dollar to a doughnut hole that if you dug into these kid's lives, you'd find certain anomalies that had more to do with their behavior than video games. Having that said, if you've got a kid that's halfway off his rocker, then a violent induced reality is not a good element to add to this mix.

I'm not in total disagreement but you can't blame it all on the games.