The experiment has failed, the National Guard under the U.S. Army needs to end. The Army not only seems to enjoy the Guards' failures, but seems determined to kick out the Guard's leggs any chance it can get. The Army Reserve also joins in bringing down the Guard for it's own reasons.

What would making the Guard it's own Branch mean?
Better pay and medical support. More realistic training and mission planning.
Pride with an increase in morale and performance.
Start with pay.
If the Guard was on it's own there would be no more of the are you Army or Guard discussion?
The Guard would have it's own regs and guidence, no need to refer to the Army pile of paper.
You would have four different pay types:
Inactive
Drill
ADSW
Mustered.
Inactive would be when you earn retirement points but do not earn pay.
Drill would be standard drill attendance and AT.
ADSW would be State duty/pay
Mustered would be Fed duty/pay

The regulations and guidelines would be tailored to the Guard, not guessing how this AR relates to Guard service.
Medical and housing could be written just for the Guard. Once again no searching through Army regs to find a match for two very different type services.

Replacements/AGRs-
Guard replaces Guard, Army officers and NCOs don't come in to replace Unit leadership.
AGRs become State employees with their own promotion and pay scale. They are no longer members of the Guard. Retirement and Disability would still be the same, but using Guard Service examples.

Army schools would still be used by the Guard:
BCT,MOS,AA,AB etc.
Guard would evaluate Guard, the Army Reserve would evaluate Army units.

Training and Standards:
NGB would establish training and standards with State commands. Guard units would still use Army doctrine as applied to their mission. The States could make Standards higher, but not lower. NGB could not set Standards lower then the Army.
States could have a bigger say in determining training for their units-Rescue, Law Enforcement, Fire Fighting, Riots.
Easy example:
Guard has to score 70 on all events. 12 mile road march added to APFT using EIB standard.

Pride:
The Army talks pride in Unit and Service, but refuses to allow the Guard to have it's own pride.

Simple fixes:
Guard Units return to their own unit names/numbers example 3/160th becomes 7th Californian Los Angeles Rifles.
The Guard design their own Unit patches (SSI) with their own numbers.
Example 40ID becomes 1st Californian Brigade.
Guard has it's own uniform and rank titles (E1-E9, O1-O10). No more U.S. ARMY name tape. It could be NATIONAL GUARD, MILITA, or State's name.
State Seal on Class A uniform buttons.
Guard could keep the Army Green class A while the Army converts to blue. Field uniform would have the State flag instead of US flag. This uniform could either be BDUs,DCUs or a new uniform.
If deployed SSI would be either the Guard unit you deployed with, or if attached to a Army unit then your State Command SSI. Those patches would also be your FWTSSSI.
This change would make the AR670 better since the Army would not have to jump through hoops to keep from having to wear a Guard SSI.
Any Army units attached to a Guard unit would wear the Theater Command SSI.
Guard has State awards, and no longer gives out Fed awards.
The Army could award you a CAB, or you could take a EIB/EBM test given by the Army, but the Guard would not be able to award you those badges.
The exception would be the Purple Heart which is a inter service award.

Mission:
The current conflict has shown, if one is to listen to critics in and outside the Army, that the Army lacks the personnel to defend the USA. With the Guard being it's own Service it can address what it has to do to defend the USA-where it fits in. It has never been in the Army's interest for the Guard to be successful at this mission since it threatens the Army's slice of the budget.
A cure could be to remission the Guard based on the following taskings:
Natural Disasters:
What units would a State need?
Communications(Ability to operate on all State and local bands)
Transport (Heavy ground and Air transport.)
Law Enforcement: (Control and or detain, and report)
Rescue (Find, transport, treat)

Using brigades based on regions in the State, a typical TO&E could look like this:
2 battalions of MP
1 battalion of Engineers
1 transport battalion
1 communication battalion
1 Medical battalion
1 Helo lift battalion
1 Headquarters battalion with admin and main surport elements.
The law would be changed to allow the President to use fed money to pay the Guard during Govenor callups. This would allow the States not to have call for Army help like the King riots where California was running out of money to pay Guard troops, who made less then their Army comrades. This would also stop the Army from being deployed somewhere to sit around, which is what they did for the riots since it was the funding that was needed not the troops. The riots had been over by the time Army deployed from Ft Ord.

Using the above organization would take the Guard out of combat operations which would have to be taken up by the Army Reserve. Considering what the Army thinks of the Guard this could be the best solution since it would allow the Army to have direct oversite over those units it would deploy with, and it would seem it would be less of an admin problem for those who cross over from reserve to active if it was between Regulars and reserve. This would also give the Guard sole mission status on the Border and Counter Drug operations within the US. Something the Guard has been doing since 1987.The border and counter drug being missions the Army has been less then happy to perform.

If the Guard maintains it's combat mission then it needs a seat on the CCoS just like the Marines have. this way the Guard has direct input on mission planning, and it won't suffer from Army mismanagement at the Guard's expense.

As far as the Army is concerned the Guard is a different service, which will never be equal to the Army regardless of how many Guard members serve in combat. the Army feels the Guard is unfit to wear Army SSIs and awards. Army feels that Guard service regardless of where is inferior to Army service.
Former members of the Army bend over backwards to disown their Guard membership.
For the improvement of both, seperate them now.

simon

Couldnt have said it better.

pipe dream... will never happen and if it did I can see a bigger Charlie Foxtrot then there already is.

quote:

Originally posted by 6051216:
the Army feels the Guard is unfit to wear Army SSIs and awards. Army feels that Guard service regardless of where is inferior to Army service.
Former members of the Army bend over backwards to disown their Guard membership.
For the improvement of both, seperate them now.

simon

You don't know how good it makes me feel to hear someone in the Guard say that they are looked down upon. That is what it's like for us every day in an SDF. I've even heard Guardsmen say that they didn't have to salute our officers. And more often than not we get treated like 2nd class soldiers.

I'd love for some guard soldier to walk by my CO (40+ years of active/reserve service, CIB, etc.), and NOT salute him.

In terms of the dream of pulling the Guard out of the USAR, never happen. 94.7% of the Guards' "state" budget comes from the USAR. The State pays only 5.3% when on state status, and nothing when they're on federal status. No way the states are going to give up that money.

Has anybody looked at going back to the old Regulars, Guard, Volunteers system? Some aspects of bringing back volunteer units for duration of GWOT rotations have their uses.

<<------- NODS head and walks away thinking, "these guys are sniffing glue."

quote:

Originally posted by AB187490720:

quote:

Originally posted by 6051216:
the Army feels the Guard is unfit to wear Army SSIs and awards. Army feels that Guard service regardless of where is inferior to Army service.
Former members of the Army bend over backwards to disown their Guard membership.
For the improvement of both, seperate them now.

simon

You don't know how good it makes me feel to hear someone in the Guard say that they are looked down upon. That is what it's like for us every day in an SDF. I've even heard Guardsmen say that they didn't have to salute our officers. And more often than not we get treated like 2nd class soldiers.

I'd love for some guard soldier to walk by my CO (40+ years of active/reserve service, CIB, etc.), and NOT salute him.

In terms of the dream of pulling the Guard out of the USAR, never happen. 94.7% of the Guards' "state" budget comes from the USAR. The State pays only 5.3% when on state status, and nothing when they're on federal status. No way the states are going to give up that money.

Yes I'd love to see someone try to diss my C.O. a West Pointer who was a career army officer,but then again you only get the respect you give!

quote:

Originally posted by _JB:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by AB187490720:

You don't know how good it makes me feel to hear someone in the Guard say that they are looked down upon. That is what it's like for us every day in an SDF. I've even heard Guardsmen say that they didn't have to salute our officers. And more often than not we get treated like 2nd class soldiers.

Unless your officers hold federal commissions, they don't have to be saluted. Further, there's a big difference between a Guard Soldier and SDF member.
[/color]

Well, here is someone who would obviously treat me as a second class "member" if I ever ran in to them. I can't help but notice you you refer to NG as "soldier" and SDF as "member".

I'm not saying that there isn't a difference. I don't think that any SDF soldier would say that there isn't a difference. NG has Title 10 responsibilities and gets Federal money, SDF "SOLDIERS" don't. You can be sent any where in the world, we can only be used within the confines of the borders of the U.S.

With regard to the "federal" commission, you do realize that when in "state" status NG and SDF hold the same status? Check your state Military and Veterans Code. And what about officers from other countries? I was taught that enlisted personnel shall salute all officers. When I was in the Navy I worked with officers from other countries, Canada, England. I'm fairly certain they did not hold U.S. federal commissions yet I'd have been in deep for failure to salute them.

In California right now the State J-6, J-8 and Inspector General are CSMR officers. Are you telling me that those "members" don't rate salutes from CNG soldiers? They were appointed by the AG.

quote:

Originally posted by AB187490720:
Well, here is someone who would obviously treat me as a second class "member" if I ever ran in to them. I can't help but notice you you refer to NG as "soldier" and SDF as "member".

No one is treating you "second" class. You want the title of Soldier with only a fraction of personal risk or sacrifice.

JB,

Right now the NG is pulling the same duties as AD Army and Army Reserves soldiers are, so what part of that equates to a "fraction"? Almost every soldier and sailor I have worked with in more than 10 years of Naval Reserve and ARNG service has been a veteran and has done all of the deployments that Active Sailors and Soldiers have done.

Yes, we have the NG as a part time job, but we also get deployed the same as Regular Army soldiers do. We have families that do not have the support systems that the Regular Army does, and we have never had the financial support for our training and operations budgets that the RA has. Yet we soldier on, and do the job, only to get looked down on by RA soldiers who often have less than 5 years of service under their belt. All I can say is they had better cinch up that duty belt if they dis me, as I have been serving for more than 20 years now, and I have earned the same respect as any other military individual and I will have no problem reminding them of that fact.

quote:

Originally posted by _JB:
Unless your officers hold federal commissions, they don't have to be saluted.

What part of "Military Customs & Courtesies" do you not understand?

quote:

Further, there's a big difference between a Guard Soldier and SDF member.

When a national guard soldier is in Title 32 (state military forces) status he and the SDF soldier stand on equal military "footing".

During the Katrina relief effort a detachment from Texas deployed to LA. It was unique in that it was made up of Texas National Guard soldiers and was commanded by a Texas State Guard officer (two "firsts" in a single deployment). Are you saying the NG troops should not have saluted their SG commander?!?

This is kinda jumping forums as this is the NG forum and the State Defense forum is a few doors down, but my stand on the SDF is that they deserve the same respect as any other military unit so long as the abide by the same rules of military discipline and conduct. Yes, they do not deploy as the AD, Reserves and NG do, but then again, they don't get paid either, so it is a fair trade. I personally believe the SG is a very under-utilized resource that most states do not understand or take advantage of. They should fund them better, manage them better and train them better, because in this day and age, they may be the only thing on the shelf when the caca hits the rotary wind moving device. Any state who does that will make LA and the U.G. Government look like baffoons should a crisis like Katrina befall their state. Having a well trained and available source for evacuations, law enforcement, crowd control, site security, and human predator control is better than insurance, because it does not just reimburse you for the loss, it prevents the loss in the first place.

So, to beat down on the SG is like kicking a malnourished man who is down on his luck, and is pretty uncool in my opinion. We need to feed that man, clean him up, get him dressed properly and give him a job. That job is the one that they have been giving only to the NG, which is now being given a different job, taking them away from the state oriented work. The SG can and will fill that niche perfectly if we take the time and effort to let them.

Why is it if someone disagree's with a SDF member they are being beaten down or treated like second class citizens?

In my opinion, comparing SDF and NG is like comparing apples to oranges.

quote:

Originally posted by _JB:
Why is it if someone disagree's with a SDF member they are being beaten down or treated like second class citizens?

In my opinion, comparing SDF and NG is like comparing apples to oranges.

I do not think that anyone is comparing SDF and NG ,but we can agree that both apples and oranges are both fruits and one is not a vegetable. For the Part the missions of the SDF and the NG are the same when in state status the only difference is that the NG on top of its state missions also has a federal obligation,but that has nothing to do with military costumes and courtesies.
One issue is the mentality of persons that think their branch of service is better than the other;such as the Navy may look down on the Coast Guard or the Marines of course 'know' that they are better than the Army! So,of course a NG person is not going to salute a SDF person no matter what that SDF person has accomplished in his or her military career.

Until we all start to realize each service has its value and that when we devalue another service it only serves to bring the system down.
Military,state or federal we all have our rightful place and we all should take note of that.

quote:

Originally posted by _JB:
Why is it if someone disagree's with a SDF member they are being beaten down or treated like second class citizens?

In my opinion, comparing SDF and NG is like comparing apples to oranges.

Because I have served in the Navy, the CAARNG, SCARNG and worked with the SDF from California and SC, and they have all been honorable, disciplined and valuable members of the team we all belong too. And, on general principle, I tend to see people who describe themselves like this:

Gov't Employee
Bio
Been in the military for a few years. Other than that, I'm too cool for a real profile

a bio like this reveals someone who has very little credibility to bring to the table. I have been both a Government Employee GS-11, and a military member E-6, so I have been there and done that. If you want to look down on anyone, you had better have something for others to look up to.

Again still doesn't make sense, if I disagree with you, I consider you a second class citizen?

I do not consider anyone who serves, be that active duty, reserves, national guard, state defense force, state naval forces, peace corps, america corps or civil service to be less than a first class citizen. We are all a team, with different functions but all important. It is only when we attack each other that such a distinction is in question. I defended reservists when on active duty, defended the NG in front of RA when I led units on deployments, and I have defended SDF soldiers and sailors whenever I worked with them either in weather disasters or on the border when I was a Customs Inspector.

Anyone who gives up his or her time, security, comfort or money, above and beyond that of any other citizen, is twice a citizen, and deserves the respect of both the people of the U.S. and others who are also serving in such a fashion. When we seek to denigrate each other, our honor as a whole is lessened. And I will fight anything that endangers that honor until they bury me in a box

quote:

Why is it if someone disagree's with a SDF member they are being beaten down or treated like second class citizens?

In my opinion, comparing SDF and NG is like comparing apples to oranges.

Gosh, I was really upset when the NG and USAR told me I was too old to be commissioned (they keep moving the damn age requirement up just behind my actual age) but there is some benefit to serving my country in a SDF; being on the bottom frees me of the terrible burden people like JB have in needing to look down on someone else. I have the highest regard for those in active duty, reserve and National Guard and in fact for anyone who endevers to serve and protect our great country, even at the risk of their life. This describes all of the "soldiers" I know, even those in SDFs.

Thanks for taking the time to listen to a state soldier.

What keeps the SDF's military is our prior service people,as more national guardsmen are being called up more and more to be a federal military reserve the State Defense Forces are picking up the slack of the state missions of the NG. The SDF's needs good people and more than ever needs those with military experience to enlist to lead our soldiers,sailors and airmen of the State Defense Forces. So,come take a real look at the SDF's