Alright i'll try to lay it out here the best i can in hopes of getting a definitive answer lol. I'am currently a SrA. i tested for SSgt during the 07E5 cycle and became a selectee with a line number in the 4000's which meant i should have sewn on 01 Dec 2007. i have not. to the best of my comprehension this is why: upon becoming a SSgt selectee i was unable to pass the PT test so my date for ALS was withdrawn. i passed my PT test 29 Feb 2008 and was told i could not attend ALS due to my seperation date being 02 Sep 2008. i was told that in order to attend ALS i needed 6 months of retainability from the ALS graduation date. i recieved nothing in writing. everything i have been informed of has been verbal. so i guess my question is: due i have any ground or basis to try and have ALS waived so that i can sew on without having to re-enlist or extend? or am i doomed to finish my AF tenure as a SrA? any and all help is greatly appreciated.

Were you recommended for reenlistment IAW the the Selective Reenlistment Program (SRP)? More importantly do you have a CJR?

If you are not planning on reenlisting why should anybody care that you are separating as a SrA? More importantly why should the AF send you to the required course if the training dollars are going to waste because your intent is to seperate at end of current enlistment?

quote:

Ref AFI 36-2301:

All personnel are eligible to reenlist/extend for the purpose of attending EPME.

Ref AFI-362502:

1.12. Who Must Complete Professional Military Education (PME). Airmen selected for promotion to SSgt, MSgt, or CMSgt must complete in-residence PME before assuming these grades. PDS automatically withholds promotion for those who do not complete appropriate PME prior to the effective date (see Table 1.2.).

Table 1.2 Item 11--serving in the grade of SrA and does not complete the NCO Preparatory Course or the Airman Leadership School; TSgt and does not complete the resident command NCO Academy; and SMSgt and does not complete the resident Senior NCO Academy (or equivalent) GSR code 2T.
(See note 5.)

Note 5. AF/DP may waive those who do not complete PME for promotion to SSgt, MSgt, and CMSgt grades. Process requests through the chain to HQ AFPC/DPPPWM.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: johca,

johca,
First off i thank you and applaud you for taking the time to look into this for me, it is appreciated.
1) yes, i'am eligible for re-enlistment IAW the SRP.
2) yes, have the career job res.

Now call me greedy, but regardless if i decide to stay in or not; i feel ive earned that next stripe and am entitled to its responsibility. i'am not neccesarily asking to be sent to ALS, i read it somewhere (possibly the PME reg) that the commander has the final say for persons with less than 6 months retainability to attend ALS/PME.

Please let me know if i'am interpreting the reg's inaccurately. as steted in my previous post i have recieved nothing in writing. again your help is appreciated.

AFI 36-2502

3.2.1. Inform airmen of adverse actions in writing or verbally before promotion effective date (confirm
verbal notification in writing within 5 workdays). The notification memorandum must include
reasons, dates, occurrences, and duration of the action. If the airman is notified verbally prior to effective
date, and written notification is followed up after effective date of promotion, include a statement
confirming the airman was verbally notified not to assume the higher grade prior to the effective date
of promotion. For SrA through CMSgt include the affected promotion cycle.

3.2.6. For withholding promotions:
3.2.6.1. Written notifications are required for all conditions listed in Table 1.2. Commanders will
clearly state specific reasons for all withholding actions.


AFI 36-2301

4.3 NOTE 3

3. For personnel with six or more months retainability as of class graduation date (CGD), once selected
attendance is mandatory. Personnel who have less than six months retainability as of CGD may attend at
commander’s discretion (for personnel who later reenlist/extend beyond six months, attendance becomes
mandatory). All personnel are eligible to reenlist/extend for the purpose of attending EPME.

quote:

Originally posted by gagniermc:
i feel ive earned that next stripe and am entitled to its responsibility.

Your opinion doesn't count. My opinion doesn't count either. Failure to attend PME resulting from failure to meet minimium physical fitness standards to attend appears to be an automatic loss of eligibility for or deferment of promotion. Process your "requests through the chain to HQ AFPC/DPPPWM."

You may have passed the physical fitness test after failing it, but you failed to sustain minimum standards. Can you replicate a passing test score today? How about tomorrow, or two weeks from now? How's that waist line?

Your physical fitness to perform military duties demonstrated by meeting or exceeding minimium fitness test standards was your responsibility. This fitness readiness was within your control to be able to pass the Fitness standard. This was the eligibility qualification for attending required PME. Completing PME was eligibility requirement for promotion. Loss of eligibility (unless cause was a medical condition) was the result of your failure to keep or willingness to sustain minimum standards of physical fitness. You may have passed, but what was your fitness score. What does your failure or unwillingness to meet minimum standards say about your character qualifications and entitlement to be an NCO?

Perhaps a few other AFIs you need to read are:

quote:

AFI 36-2503-Administrative Demotion of Airmen:

3.3. Failure to Fulfill NCO Responsibilities. Airmen may be demoted who don’t fulfill noncommissioned officer (NCO) responsibilities under AFR 39-6 paragraphs 6c through m.

3.4. Failure to Keep Fit.

3.4.1. Airmen may be demoted when, after entry into the weight management programs, they
cannot maintain body fat standards as outlined in AFI 40-502, Air Force Weight Management
Program (formerly AFR 35-11).

3.4.2. Airmen may be demoted for failing to maintain or failing to demonstrate the ability and
willingness to attain physical standards, according to AFI 40-502 (formerly AFR 35-11).

17.4. Failing to Keep Fit.

17.4.1. Demote an airman if he or she fails to attain or maintain weight and body fat standards even after entering the weight management program. EXCEPTION: Airmen will not be demoted if they can present convincing medical evidence that they cannot attain or maintain weight and body fat standards because of physical or organic causes beyond their control.

17.4.2. Demote an airman for failing to keep or show willingness to reach physical fitness standards.

Note AFR 39-6 is now AFI 36-2618

quote:

AFI 36-2618 Enlisted Force Structure:

4.1.2.2. Be physically ready to accomplish the mission. Keep themselves in good physical condition, meet Air Force fitness standards, and set a positive example for subordinates. Lead the way by promoting, supporting, and participating in the Air Force Fitness Program and their units' physical training programs. Incorporate physical training into their teams' duty schedules. (AFI 10-248, Fitness Program).

This message has been edited. Last edited by: johca,

johca,
All of these AFI's are without merit as i have not been demoted. these would only apply if i had already sewn on. yes i can "replicate" a passing PT score today as i said before that was a pre-req for me being able to attend PME. i/ve worked very hard to be ably to maintain a passing score over the last few months. because i currently have a passing score on my pt i feel this argument too is without merit. my character is not what's in question, i'm trying to find out, basically, if i will be a SSgt when i get out or remain a SrA. i just dont feel i should have to extend my current enlistment to be entitled to something that i have already earned. the reg's seem to be here and there in our opinions,lol. perhaps the legal office would know more or at least be able to interpret the regs from a non biased point of view. thank you for your help johca i think we're going to agree to disagree. if anyone else has any inputs or have heard of this happening please chime in and let me know if im waisting my time with this. as always help is appreciated.

Your situation is actually starting to become very common now that SRA are getting promoted so much earlier. My experience in this arena is writing three waivers to ALS to allow SRA to put the rank on without attending. I don't have the reference here but I believe it says the only exception to promotion without attending is due to real world missions/deployements is the only exception. All three I have written wre approved, but all three airmen were also deployed for 120 days prior to the their line number passing. One of them was actually on a 365 after he found out. I think the fact you missed ALS because of a PT score won't hold much water in a waiver.

On that note, is passing PT a requirement to attend ALS? I went to the NCO academy two years ago and there were lots of folks who had not passed their last PT eval. Was this your commanders decision or in an AFI?

quote:

Originally posted by gagniermc:
johca,
All of these AFI's are without merit as i have not been demoted. these would only apply if i had already sewn on.

Your promotion was deferred and unless you get a waiver or attend required in residence PME course your promotion is denied.

The policies are aplicable because they show the deferment or denial resulted from your substandard performance. The policies apply as they show the distinction of how NCO ranks and grades differ from enlisted ranks and grades.

The merit of the context of these policies is you have to submit for a waiver to obtain your promotion to the NCO ranks and grades. Whining about how you were unfairly held accountable for your substandard performance and how much you feel you earned the promotion and entitled to NCO responsibilities is not going to get you the waiver to promotion to NCO rank and grade you seek.

The merit of the argument is your character and performance qualification to be an NCO. The quoted AFI policy is relevant to your "self" assessment to your claim you “earned that next stripe and am entitled to its responsibility.”

NCO rank and grade brings with it an expectation the person holding such rank and grade is responsible for their actions. You failed to sustain a required minimum or better standard required to perform military duties of the lowest enlisted ranks. The question being posed by the referenced policies is how accurate and correct is your boastful claim of you earned the stripe and are ready to perform all the professional duties of a Noncommissioned Officer. These NCO duties which include being the lowest rank and grade that can issue an order also has significant combat leadership responsibilities when leading a tactical element. How can you lead into hardship tactical environments when during your first enlistment you demonstrated a failure to sustain the physical fitness needed to follow?

From what you are exposing about yourself in this conversation, you are lacking of the character traits needed to perform as a professional NCO. (By the way, AFI 36-2903 fails to identify the Law Enforcement badge as a current occupational specify badge, it does identify Force Protection Badge and Air Force Security Forces Badge. This raises questions of you having simple understanding of what specialty badge you earned qualification to wear and duties you are qualified to perform. Yes the law enforcement badge looks similar to the Force protection badge, but force protection badge according to the AFIs is not any of the current occupational badges).

The solution (other than a waiver) is simple, extend or reenlist to get the retainability to complete the required PME and get the promotion or separate as a SRA and continue to post here after separating about how you got screwed by the Air Force.

Simply it's a character problem and not a promotion problem.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: johca,

quote:

Originally posted by caninedale:
On that note, is passing PT a requirement to attend ALS?

No. Consequently the suspicion there is more to the PME attendance being cancelled for a fitness test failure than is being disclosed.

quote:

Originally posted by caninedale:
but I believe it says the only exception to promotion without attending is due to real world missions/deployements is the only exception.

Not exactly an exception specific to the waiver request. But medical, mission related, or personal hardship would be the justification for the waiver request.

quote:

AFI36-2301:

2.10. Individuals.

...Enlisted personnel designated for ALS attendance may be delayed for medical, mission-related, or personal hardship conditions without prejudice upon approval of the individual’s commander. ...

Failure of a PT test still allows participation and attendance, so it comes down to what exactly in addition to failure of PT test caused the ALS PME non-attendence once the member was given a seat in a course and scheduled to attend.

quote:

AFI 10-248:

8.2.5. Following PCM evaluation pursuant to para 1.25.7. CCs will take administrative action as appropriate (eligibility for reenlistment, PME, promotion, UIF, etc.) against those identified as poor fit for greater than a continuous 180-day period (12 months for Reservists) and each subsequent test thereafter.

8.3. Education and Training Programs.
8.3.1. Members in all fitness categories may participate in PME and attend technical training, undergraduate/ graduate education and training programs in accordance with specific course requirements and commander discretion.

8.3.1.1. Members enrolled in the FIP must continue with this program and scheduled FAs while in training status.

also

Attachment 14:

SAMPLE MEMO FOR TDY/PME
(Appropriate Letterhead)
MEMORANDUM FOR COMMANDANT/TDY COMMANDER (Date)
FROM: UNIT COMMANDER
SUBJECT: Fitness Intervention, Follow-up, and Testing Requirements
1. (Rank, Name) received a poor fitness score on (date) . He/she is enrolled in the following improvement program(s):
____________ Fitness Improvement Program (FIP)
____________ Body Composition Improvement Program (BCIP)
2. This member must continue on the FIP/BCIP while TDY. Please ensure enrollment in local programs.
3. The member must retest NLT (date).
(Signature, Unit Commander)
Attachment:
Individual Fitness Assessment Report
1st Ind, COMMANDANT/COMMANDER
MEMORANDUM FOR UNIT COMMANDER
1. (Rank, Name) did / did not enroll and participate in the required improvement programs.
2. A FA was accomplished on (test date) with a score of (composite fitness score).
(Commandant)
Attachment:
Individual FA Report

This message has been edited. Last edited by: johca,

quote:

Originally posted by gagniermc:
Alright i'll try to lay it out here the best i can in hopes of getting a definitive answer lol. I'am currently a SrA. i tested for SSgt during the 07E5 cycle and became a selectee with a line number in the 4000's which meant i should have sewn on 01 Dec 2007. i have not. to the best of my comprehension this is why: upon becoming a SSgt selectee i was unable to pass the PT test so my date for ALS was withdrawn. i passed my PT test 29 Feb 2008 and was told i could not attend ALS due to my seperation date being 02 Sep 2008. i was told that in order to attend ALS i needed 6 months of retainability from the ALS graduation date. i recieved nothing in writing. everything i have been informed of has been verbal. so i guess my question is: due i have any ground or basis to try and have ALS waived so that i can sew on without having to re-enlist or extend? or am i doomed to finish my AF tenure as a SrA? any and all help is greatly appreciated.

Did this info come from someone reliable like your First Sgt or was it from the dorm lawyers?

segedeth,
this is what was told to me first person by our shirt (CMSgt) along with my flight chiefs (MSgt, TSgt)

johca,
thank you for pointing ou [B]johca, t the error on my specialty badge, it will be changed. yes these AFI's show deferment and denial but not DEMOTION. i do not nor have i ever had the intention of standing in front of the PME building whining until they allowed me entrance. i did not realize that my "claim" of earning the stripe was "boastful" thank you for pointing that out to me. additionally i still fail to see how this is a character problem. the problem is simple, i have been selected for promotion to SSgt and meet all required pre-req's other than having six months retainability. so the question is can i sew on without having to extend or re-enlist?

[B]caninedale,
the part about this becoming more and more common is in part the reason for my post. i know of airman who have attended, graduated, and sewn on stripes with less retainability than myself. so im trying to figure out how they do it yet i cannot. thank you for your non-biased input.

quote:

Originally posted by gagniermc:
i have been selected for promotion to SSgt and meet all required pre-req's other than having six months retainability. so the question is can i sew on without having to extend or re-enlist?

You have not met all the required qualifying requirements to assume the rank and grade of SSgt (E-5). The PME is a mandatory requirement for assuming the higher rank and grade of SSgt (E-5).

You cannot assume SSgt rank and grade unless you can get a waiver for the PME requirement or complete required PME before separating from active duty. Without attending in-residence and successfully completing an ALS PME course you are ineligible to assume the grade of SSgt and the promotion is withheld until ALS is completed. You can request a waiver, but typically approval requires demonstrating medical, mission related or personal hardship conditions and situations you had no control over. Your withdrawal from a scheduled ALS resulted from your inability to pass a PT test. Sustaining physical fitness is something that you have control over.

quote:

Originally posted by gagniermc:
…upon becoming a SSgt selectee i was unable to pass the PT test so my date for ALS was withdrawn. …

Indicates your attendance and participation in a required course was cancelled because you failed to sustain minimum or better physical fitness standards. Considering these are the minimum fitness standards the Department of the Air Force has set as the qualification to perform military duties, your failure to maintain minimum standards is also evidence of substandard duty performance.

quote:

Originally posted by gagniermc:
… additionally i still fail to see how this is a character problem…

Character—the pattern of behavior or personality found in a person. Moral strength, self discipline, fortitude, etc. What caused you to fail to sustain physical fitness standards required to perform military duties? Consequently a character problem and not a promotion problem.

quote:

Originally posted by gagniermc:
i know of airman who have attended, graduated, and sewn on stripes with less retainability than myself. so im trying to figure out how they do it yet i cannot.

They either had the PME qualifying requirement completed or they got a waiver for not having completed the required PME. If they got a waiver for lack of required PME course completion, the approval of such waiver resulted from being able to convince unit commander, higher chain of command and HQ AFPC/DPPPWM (waiver approval authority) attending and successfully completing the required PME was prevented or hindered by medical, mission-related, or personal hardship conditions and situations beyond their ability to control.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: johca,

Are you clear as to why PME has been denied? Did you receive any official notification? If not, you need to get that notification even in the form of a memorandum from your First Sergeant, Commander or MPF. If this is the decision of your command or otherwise, the next step is to put together a package for the Board for Corrections of Military Records... I think that is right. The link for procedures is just below the Assignments link on the Self-Service Actions page of your vMPF.

No judgement here because your situation is your own. Sometimes timing is everything whether good or bad. Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by jamesjaragon:
If this is the decision of your command or otherwise, the next step is to put together a package for the Board for Corrections of Military Records... I think that is right.

He most certainly can do this, but the AF Board for Correction of Military Records is not an investigative authority. The member submitting the application must be able to provide evidence of why it was wrong, improper, or an injustice the commander canceled the attendance to a required PME course and then demonstrate why the promotion is deserved corrective resolution without the attendance and completion of the required PME.

The evidence the member submits besides being verifiable will have to demonstrate conclusively: (1) why the commander’s actions were unjust, wrong or whatever in denying attendance to the PME course the member was scheduled to attend; and (2) why promotion to correct a wrong doing is warranted. He has administrative options available such as requesting a waiver or extending to gain eligibility to attend the required PME. Thus he will have to also explain why these administraive solutions were not attempted.

Pretty difficult to over turn a commander's decision and undermine the required assume higher grade eligibility requirements through a Board for Correction of Military Records, if the member does not make the effort to request a waiver or take all other administrative options available such as extending to attend the PME course.

If the suggestion is the Commander did something unethical or deliberately wrongful to the member there is the Article 138 complaint process and also the IG complaint process.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: johca,

Do you have any other negative actions in your PIF? Could this be the reason they are not letting you attend PME? If not, your best bet is to go to MPF and get the AFI that mandates a six month retainability to attend PME. Second, talk to legal and get their input. If evidence shows that you do not have to have retainability submit an IG complaint.

quote:

Originally posted by gagniermc:
Alright i'll try to lay it out here the best i can in hopes of getting a definitive answer lol. I'am currently a SrA. i tested for SSgt during the 07E5 cycle and became a selectee with a line number in the 4000's which meant i should have sewn on 01 Dec 2007. i have not. to the best of my comprehension this is why: upon becoming a SSgt selectee i was unable to pass the PT test so my date for ALS was withdrawn. i passed my PT test 29 Feb 2008 and was told i could not attend ALS due to my seperation date being 02 Sep 2008. i was told that in order to attend ALS i needed 6 months of retainability from the ALS graduation date. i recieved nothing in writing. everything i have been informed of has been verbal. so i guess my question is: due i have any ground or basis to try and have ALS waived so that i can sew on without having to re-enlist or extend? or am i doomed to finish my AF tenure as a SrA? any and all help is greatly appreciated.

I think you are doomed to seperate as a SrA.

You may be able to get your ALS waived...but I think the because you were a no-go due to a PT failure will not work in your favor...usually they give the waivers for Deployments.

So...I think you are screwed...unless you extend or reenlist.....even then....it is the commander's discretion on activating your line number.

You can always call the IG and have them check about the retainabilty issue for ALS....I don't think there is a real ADSC for the class....it may only be a scheduling policy due to the high class load. If it is just a policy and not an AF requirement with a real ADSC...you may have a case to get into a class and get your stripe backdated to Feb 08.

Good Luck.