I just graduated WTC on 8 July 2009. I have to say in my opinion WTC is pretty much a joke. You have Drill Sergeants over you who rather be traning indviduals in BCT so they treat you like a brand new PVT to the Army and not like a prior service. If you are going and are an NCO be prepaired to not be treated like a NCO until you get to the NCO course after you graduate. The NCO course is the most positive thing through out the course. Well other than going home or on to AIT. The DSs are more intrested in pushing you through and trying to take away your privilages than help transtion you into the Army.

There has been talk of WTC going away well that's what they were talking about when I was there. I honestly don't think WTC should be taken away. The program needs to be revamped. It should be a lot harder to go to. It should be taken out of the BCT inviornment and be the same lenght as BCT so prior service are more prepared when they get to there units. Instead of just pushed through and a block checked off. Put WTC at another Installation for example put it at FT Polk, LA there is plenty of room and facilities. Have instructors that just specialize in WTC not DSs. If you have been out less than 3 years you go to WTC if you been out longer than 3 years you go back to BCT. If you were seperated from your previous branch after being in for 6 months (seperated during training) and you go into the Army you should have to go through BCT. That's what I think should be done with the program.

Even though the DSs didn't seem to want to be there and treated us like PVTs most of them were actually pretty good. There were only a few that truly showed it. The DSs for my Platoon were great and trained myself and my fellow soldiers well. I feel we are ready for whatever the Army puts us through.

So you got treated like a PVT? Big deal, shake it off. YOU weren't treated like an NCO? Well maybe the CADRE there have had some bad expieriences with NCO's from previous classes. Sorry that it happened to you. You have to realize that NO ONE wants to do the WTC mission, why? hmmm let me ask you, did your class(not Platoon) have a lot of FINANCIAL issues? SNUCK cigarretes to the ranges and smoke them in the porta johns? Had Female Soldiers and Male Soldiers trying to 'HOOK UP'?
Talk in formation when they weren't supposed to? Have numerous injuries? FAIL the APFT?Fall asleep on fireguard, NOT clean the weapon to standard? WHINE about NOT having enough sleep? I can go on. But if you answered YES to at least 5 of the 9 listed above...yeah I would have treated you all like pvts also. You see PRIOR SERVICE should NOT do ANY of the above, why? cause the are PRIOR SERVICE. I do agree on one point, the NCO course is beneficial. Now take what you saw and expand on what NOT to do. Or better yet, VOLUNTEER to come back and serve a tour as a DRILL SGT and get assigned here so you can FIX what is wrong with this program. other than that....be glad that you have a check now.

I'll never be tired of reading the T&C posts from recent graduates lol.

-PG

I was assigned to E Bat. 1/79 FA 3rd Platoon,"WIDOWMAKERS!!!" Class 513-09. I had a blast! Yes, there were knuckleheads that got us dropped, mostly for not being motivated (incidentally most of those guys were prior Navy and had attitudes)or not memorizing the Soldier's Creed. We did have battlebuddies not following the rules that were constantly "drilled" into our heads since reception, talking and moving in formation the hook ups in the laundry room, tobacco products during training hours, even had one with a pocket knife. Most of us had been out of the service for more than 5 yrs, I was out for 20 yrs before coming back in. I knew what to expect when I got there and wasn't disappointed. At the reception battalion, we were processed in with BCT's or IET's and the Drills didn't discern who was who and didn't care. WTC was in their own barracks but the BCTs were watching us.

WTC is what it is, it is also what you make it. I put 100% and got back much more! I have respect for the Cadre and what they put up with.
I didn't feel pushed out the door, I felt pushed to reach potential. PT was vigorous at first, every free minute we were "beating our face" and flutter kicking... even out on the range in full battle rattle.

Your suggestion of the time changes might have some effect in training - I agree, there was a lot to learn in a short amount of time, but if you put the effort to get the information before the classes, and use the class for affirmation, you get most out of it when you interact with the Cadre.

I also noticed that the Cadre opened up more to us when we showed the willingness to learn what they have to teach.

We were not threatened to have any privileges taken away unless WE didn't complete our daily tasks. The only privilege that other classes had was the overnight pass, because of the prior class before us screwed up, the overnighter went away, curfew was at 2330 for us. We had plenty of base passes more than 3 hours to get anything we needed to square away our uniforms and morale.


I am sorry you had a different view. No, it wasn't Basic training, it never was designed to be Basic. It was for us priors to get our military bearing greased and hit the ground running. The Cadre were expecting us to be mature and military minded and teach us at a higher level than basic. They were disappointed because of the lack of discipline some had.

I really enjoyed WTC and I want to thank all my Cadre at the 1-79 FA Echo Battery, EAGLES!

quote:

Originally posted by ninjadrill:
So you got treated like a PVT? Big deal, shake it off. YOU weren't treated like an NCO? Well maybe the CADRE there have had some bad expieriences with NCO's from previous classes. Sorry that it happened to you. You have to realize that NO ONE wants to do the WTC mission, why? hmmm let me ask you, did your class(not Platoon) have a lot of FINANCIAL issues? SNUCK cigarretes to the ranges and smoke them in the porta johns? Had Female Soldiers and Male Soldiers trying to 'HOOK UP'?
Talk in formation when they weren't supposed to? Have numerous injuries? FAIL the APFT?Fall asleep on fireguard, NOT clean the weapon to standard? WHINE about NOT having enough sleep? I can go on. But if you answered YES to at least 5 of the 9 listed above...yeah I would have treated you all like pvts also. You see PRIOR SERVICE should NOT do ANY of the above, why? cause the are PRIOR SERVICE. I do agree on one point, the NCO course is beneficial. Now take what you saw and expand on what NOT to do. Or better yet, VOLUNTEER to come back and serve a tour as a DRILL SGT and get assigned here so you can FIX what is wrong with this program. other than that....be glad that you have a check now.

You obviously only read part of my post. Read what you wanted to read and than posted what you posted. If you would have read all of it you would have read most of my suggestions. Which many recent graduates and some cadre members would agree to being changed. You also would have seen that I prasied all my cadre on training us.

Also saying Prior service wouldn't get injured is kind of funny. Everyone gets injured. Infact I would even bet that you got injured in Drill Sergeant School. But you wouldn't be the first to admitt it because you don't want people to think you could get injured. As for several soldiers trying to hook up. News flash that happens everywhere in the Army not just traning. I bet it even happened in DS School. But that is another thing you probably wouldn't admitt to as well. Don't even let me go into the smoking thing. Maybe the class you taught smoked at the range but no one in my my class did. LOL if they wanted us to quite they would have not allowed us to have a smoke pit.

Oh by the way I've been thinking about volunteering to be a Drill Sergeant and I would be the first to voulunteer to do WTC. That way I could make it better for my fellow prior service members. I would even pass my suggestions on up the chain.

Ease up there soldier, always be aware of to whom you speak. Show some respect.

I agree with most of what you said about WTC. I helped out the DS's at AIT, acted as cadre often, etc... I was the reclassing MOS-T platoon sgt. I saw what the DSs over IETs had to put up with with those IETs and there is NO WAY training an IET is as easy as training a PS vet. Incredible what I saw.

Ninja, OV,

Seems to me like SGT Eppich needs to remove her head from her FPOC and remember what being an NCO is all about. She should start by running a search query on both of you gentlemen's history on this site.

She wants to step into a forum like this and sling that load of BS she's trying to deliver, she better be ready to take it full on the chin in return when some old grey-headed SNCO wants to rip her immature head and $h!t down her throat!

Yes, I've had a rough day. The screws in my leg, received from jumping out of aircraft, are screaming at me and the thought of some young punk SGT giving undeserved GRIEF to a outstanding NCO just ****ES ME OFF!

Yes, I'm stepping into NCO Business with BOTH BOOTS! If she thinks I don't have the right she can check out my BIO and then recite the ARMY VALUES to me. Let's see. Leadership. Duty. Respect. Huh? Respect?? Yeah, that's the one I'm talking about. Self-less Service. Honor. Integrity. Personal Courage.

SGT Eppich, when your career comes even close to NinjaDrill's then you will have reached a point in your like when you have lived these Values as an NCO can only hope to do.

Do me a favor, please. Before you open your mouth and deliver what you think is a sharp rebuke on a site such as this, do some research. Find out who your talking to. Find out what contribution they've made to the Army Values. Find out what they've done to make the Soldiers you're going to lead ready to receive your input as a Sergeant in the U.S. Army.

If you can't do this, then dig deep, very deep and ask yourself what contribution you've made. NOT what you're going to do. Not what you once did. Not what you may have dreams of doing. What contribution have you made to make the Army a better place? Soldiers like Ninja spent a large part of their lives preparing Soldiers, both young and not-so-young, to take the fight to the enemy. With all due respect to your prior service, it's now time to suck it up, quit *****ing and be a part of the solution not a continuing part of the problem. In other words, bring your positive feedback on with both barrels. Your constructive criticism is also welcome. And, yes, I did read your entire post. I see the good and bad in your ideas but that's one great thing about our country. We get to openly express our opinions without fear of retribution. I'm not going to go into responding to each of your ideas. I will only say that decisions regarding the time periods in place for training, and the decisions made over who will and will not attend WTC, are made at paygrades much higher than anyone reading and contributing to this site.

In closing, you've decided to come back home and we all respect that decision. Please remember one thing when you contribute to the military forums on the web; you never know to whom you're talking. The Army is not so large that comments regarding disrespect can't be passed onto to one's 1stSgt or Commander.

Ninja, I know you can handle yourself on this site. I've seen you do so. Forgive me stepping in and doing a little off-the-cuff mentoring.

Semper Fi!
AIRBORNE!!
I WILL BE SURE ALWAYS!!

Marine64
Cpl-USMC 1981-90
MSG-USAF 1992-2006
LT-USA 2007-???

Lt. Strickland,

With all due respect, I think, to a degree, you're calling in fire on your own position. This entire thread is batting around the concept of respect. Respect goes both ways. As a prior enlisted Second Lieutenant I'm sure that you would agree that while you have rank on your squad leaders, you also have a considerable respect for their talents and abilities. They've earned it. As have you, as has Ninja, and... wait for it... Sgt. Eppic.

Before I continue, I should point out that from my perspective I don't really care. I joined the Texas National Guard voluntarily and I'll eat whatever **** they put on my plate, and I'll smile. If they wanted to run me through Basic again, I'd go and have fun with it. That's me.

On the other hand, I don't think it should be surprising that prior service NCOs would have the expectation that they would receive greater respect for their rank than the virgins across the camp. While I disagree with this point, it doesn't surprise me. I think the recruiters have a lot to do with it. We should be smart enough to know better (and apparently I am lol), but my recruiter totally blew off WTC and claimed that it was a cake walk (and really now people, compared to going back to basic, it is).

Anyhow, out of all the Tea and Crumpet posts, Sgt. Eppic's at least seems to be based in more than mere whining. She sees something that she perceives to be a problem and she suggests alternatives. I think she's spot on with her thought that those of us who are coming over from Navy or Air Force should be run through basic.

She even goes so far as to commend her platoon Drill Sergeants. Ninja teeing off was within his prerogative I suppose, but it wasn't the most constructive way to handle the topic. Sgt. Eppich's reply didn't help, and pushed this thread further away from informative discourse. And at the end of the day, everyone is missing the same thing: Respect for their rank.

I think that if they both stopped for a minute both Ninja and Stg. Eppich would realize that they have a genuine opportunity here to make the Army better. I hope that Ninja might get in contact with Sgt. Eppich and help her become a Drill Sergeant.

We're all on the same team here folks.

-PG

Training suggestions....

Combat Arms vs Support, seen the argument before numerous times in uniform and on this website. You can guess which side I am on.

[/QUOTE]You obviously only read part of my post. Read what you wanted to read and than posted what you posted. If you would have read all of it you would have read most of my suggestions. Which many recent graduates and some cadre members would agree to being changed. You also would have seen that I prasied all my cadre on training us.

Also saying Prior service wouldn't get injured is kind of funny. Everyone gets injured. Infact I would even bet that you got injured in Drill Sergeant School. But you wouldn't be the first to admitt it because you don't want people to think you could get injured. As for several soldiers trying to hook up. News flash that happens everywhere in the Army not just traning. I bet it even happened in DS School. But that is another thing you probably wouldn't admitt to as well. Don't even let me go into the smoking thing. Maybe the class you taught smoked at the range but no one in my my class did. LOL if they wanted us to quite they would have not allowed us to have a smoke pit.

Oh by the way I've been thinking about volunteering to be a Drill Sergeant and I would be the first to voulunteer to do WTC. That way I could make it better for my fellow prior service members. I would even pass my suggestions on up the chain.[/QUOTE]

Yes you made some valued points in your ONE post. These points HAVE been brought up before. Your suggestions are somewhat valued also. But will not come to bear. Money/budgets will always play a factor on what/where type of training is going to be done. To become an effective leader one must visualize the WHOLE picture. Not what is just affecting them at that point in time. Leaders AREaware of what is going on and how hard it is to do certain things. Where is one supposed to get the facilities to do what you suggested? Where is the Army gooing to get the EXTRA NCO's to train the WTC mission? You see SGT, the WTC mission was just handed to the Ft Sill base....NO SUPPORT was granted, BIG ARMY said ...do it. Traps had to be allocated from OTHER resources.. What are TRAPS? hmmm in due time you may understand that one. Just this year WTC was given LIMITED funding. BCT batteries had to be compromised to support the mission. IET Soldiers DIVERTED to other bases. You will MOST likely NEVER see the briefings that are put together for a quarterly briefing, or even SEE the Power point stats on the INJURIES vs the BCT injuries. The breakdown by age, break in service, and the financial burdens that SOME, NOT ALL Prior Service members bring to the plate as opposed to a fresh faced IET Soldier. Did I get injured in Drill SGT School? No, but I did get injured the 2nd day during the Combat Leaders Infantry Course, broke my ankle and taped it up with duct tape for 2 weeks. I was NOT going to come back and do THAT course again. BTW because of my injuries I am 80% disabled. No sleep apnea though. Try a battle march and shoot with an m4 all tricked out with NO Sling and then have to qualify. Um no one HOOKED UP during my Drill Sgt class( I went to Ft Benning for that). A smoke pit, hmm that came because WE GOT TIRED OF GIVING OUT UCMJ! Wonder why the Cadre don't wear their DS hats? Because too many WTC have complained they were intimidated by the DS hats.
Young SGT, you should also be aware that the word Soldier is always capitalized It is a directive/order from someone who gets paid a lot more than you or I. Before you volunteer to become a Drill SGT, try to become an NCO, anyone can be a SGT. But to be an NCO is a whole different way of life. Good luck on submitting your packet for DS. It looks SO much easier when your sitting in the bleachers. I do wish you luck on your continued service to the great state of Arizona. Now that you have made 2 whole posts, one complaining, one teeing off on me. Why not make some POSITVE posts to help other FUTURE WTC Soldiers. Cause it seems to me that is what a true NCO would do.

I just think it's funny how two people take my comments as complaning. There was no where in here of me complaining. That's why I find the internet so funny everyone reads into things way to much. Giving me advice and telling to become an NCO before I volunteer to be a DS. Well I have to say I have become an NCO and am continuing to become a better NCO.

LT just so you know I did graduate WTC. I came home because I'm National Guard. Trust me Active Duty was something I was looking at doing again back in 2007 and 2008. I have reasons I went National Guard. There was no reason for you to use cruse words on here. That is disrespectful and not appropriate for an officer.

Ninja no I don't think being a Drill Sergeant is an easy job. It's something I've wanted to do for years. Infact even applied to be a Military Training Instructor when I was in the Air Force. A Military Training Instructor is an Air Force Drill Sergeant. I was denied because they thought I would be to hard on the traniees and cause them to have a mental brake down. I could care less if Cadre wore there Drill Sergeant hats in fact I wondred why they didn't. They earned the right to wear it they should have. I'll say it again FT Polk, LA has the facilites to hold WTC. If they asked for Volunteers to train WTC I'd be the first in line.

As for anyone reading this I hope you didn't take my posts as complaning. I was giving my opinion on the course. To me it was a joke and a cake walk. I excpected more out of it. Heck if they let me go back through basic I would have. Shoot I was even arguing with my unit to send me to Leanardwood for MP School but they won't. So maybe my new unit in LA will actually agree to it. My advice to those getting ready to leave for WTC. Make sure you know your Soldiers Creed and the Army Song. For those NCOs going make sure you know the NCO Creed yes it is a lot to memorize but they are going to excpect you to know it. Blow your DSs away and have it memorized when you get there. Drink plenty of water it gets hot and hummid in Ft Sill. Get some insoles for your boots escpically if you have medium to high arches. If you don't trust me you will have ankle problems and almost brake both your ankles. I'm talking from experiance. But if it wasn't for my awsome First Sergeant pushing me and making me go to Sick call I'd still be at Ft Sill on med hold. By the way I was the only injured indvidual that didn't get thrown into med hold cause obviously my First Sergeant saw that I wanted this and it was in me. Also make sure you are ready for 4 mile runs and you are running in formation. If anyone has any questions about WTC I have no problem answering them.

I believe that you did have a good experiences at WTC, its the OPTEMPO and the quality one on one training that was lacking. Ft Polk was on consideration for the WTC mission along with many other bases. Because of the WTC mission and logistics it was not feasibly possible. Yes the do HAVE the facilities but lacked the neccessary equipment to accomplish the mission.....IE ranges, obstacle courses, cadre, and weapons pool. LA? wow, that will be a good change, hopefully a positive one. Good luck on your career and looking forward to reading further posts from you. I know there are a lot of posters on the Female side that need some advice and mentorship from someone who has been there done that.

Sgt Shortcake and PG,

You are both absolutely correct, I did draw fire and I welcome it. In the old days this was called Recon by Fire. If you will notice, the choice of words and impact of those words (from all parties) has changed since the initial post. However, let's not lose the true sight picture. Both of you had/have good points in your posts - as I mentioned to Sgt Eppich.

What set me off is the lack of respect shown to a proven DS on this site. SGT, these were your words, written obviously in a defensive posture, but written without knowledge of who your target was.

"You obviously only read part of my post. Read what you wanted to read and than posted what you posted."

"Infact I would even bet that you got injured in Drill Sergeant School. But you wouldn't be the first to admitt it because you don't want people to think you could get injured."

"As for several soldiers trying to hook up. News flash that happens everywhere in the Army not just traning. I bet it even happened in DS School. But that is another thing you probably wouldn't admitt to as well."

As I said in my post, you never know who may read your posts on these sites. If you're not sure of who is responding to you, please take a minute and do some research - it will save heartache in the end. A good rule of thumb is if you would not say the words to a person's face then you should not type them here.

Finally, in my own defense, I never spoke wrongly of your service. I totally understand the reasons for Reserve Component service. After all, I am a Traditional Reservist myself. I did my AC time but will never malign someone's desire or need to serve in the AR or NG. Heck, most of the people I serve with - and have served with for the last 17 years - have been Guard or Reserve. What I did say, or mean, is that an NCO should know better - which is what NinjaDrill was saying when he said "try to become an NCO, anyone can be a SGT."

As for the cursing, officer's are human. It's no more disrespectful for an officer to curse than for a SGT to show disrespect to a DS. If you will read the post, it was not written to you, but to two other members on this site. I apologize if you were offended.

SGT, you've given some good advice here and detailed some valid points. I know that because you've taken the time to think through what it would take to improve WTC you will be a good source of information and a good mentor to those on this site who need it.

I will close with this; there may be a time in the future when a newby decides to rip into you without thinking or doing their due diligence. When that happens, if I see it, you can trust that I will step up to your defense just as quickly. As a fellow NCO you deserve no less.

Semper Fi!
AIRBORNE!!
I WILL BE SURE ALWAYS!!!

I will agree with 2 things.....NCO's WERE treated as privates (all of them in our battery) and the NCO course was GREAT! but you know what? its only a like 7 week course or whatever and then its done...gotta just suck it up.
I am volunteering for DS when I get back from Iraq next year

hey fivepointnine...we were in WTC together. I was 3rd plt. Where'd you end up? What MOS are you doing. Im over at Fort Hood. deploying next year.