Schwanke, I think it might work.

I got caught in a rocket attack my first week in Vietnam. I was sleeping, my glasses off (can't find my hands without them) when the rockets started to hit. No one had told me what to do. Everyone started screaming and running one way or the other, most to a bunker I didn't even know about.

When I finally heard someone yell.. "get to the bunker"... I followed his voice (hadn't found my glasses) and got out into the monsoon mud, slipping and sliding my way to what I thought was the bunker. A half a dozen more rockets landed by that time, one taking out a building about 25 yards from me. The light from the explosion let me see the entrance to the bunker, and as I started to slide in the hole, two sets of hands grabbed my hands and slid me in the mud into the bunker.

Great first experience with rockets. I sat there in the dark, almost blind, wet, muddy and cold. We god pounded pretty good that night, and for the next few nights including perimiter probes that resulted in a few guys getting killed by small arms fire and small rockets. (B26??? I don't remember now)

When I filed for service connection, I stated I did not have "A" stressor, I had "MANY" stressors, and listed at least ten that quickly came to mind.

I'm not sure what the VA went with, but I think that first rocket attack should have been enough. The FNG sure was scared!

Bill

Added as an afterthought: By the end of my tour, rocket attacks were so common, I would find myself staying in my sleeeping bag and ignoring the rockets. I wouldn't go to the bunker unless my Battery NCOIC made me. I figured, either it hits me here or it hits me there in the bunker. If it's meant to happen it will. If they shut off the damn siren, I probably could have slept. I don't know if that was PTSD or just not giving a F*&%, but there it was.

I guess I still have some problem with that, in that is seems sort of dishonest to list stressors that are lesser to me, just because the VA won't accept the ones that bother me most. Oh well, I guess everyone really has LOTS of stressors in my opinion, as long as you use one that works, how can that be so wrong?

quote:

Originally posted by Schwanke:
Thanks Flash 69 and C130aviatrix (I love that handle!)
I am further convinced that you people did it right the first time. I cannot even visualize a VSO actually getting involved enough to prepare the paperwork or attempt to understand the problem.
I have decided I will obtain the reports, THEN use one of them for the stressor proof. Sure makes more sense to use one in the files, rather than to keep submitting stressors with the wild hope it might have been recorded on whatever VA chooses to look at. Besides, it allows me to pin down an exact date as well as refresh my recollections.
I am still unsure of what records to look for, it appears that the Unit Journal is the most productive of what I need. I spent many months getting all the ORLL's from the unit (Operational Readiness, Lessons Learned) and wound up with nothing. I was in an Engineer Battalion, so they of course concentrated solely on construction methods and innovative ideas to do construction in a combat environment, had nothing to do with enemy action, I doubt if they submitted combat after action reports, not sure.
Say C130 gal, did you ever come across a C130 guy named Christopher Reichart by chance? (maintenance, not pilot)

First let me say I am sorry I have been away from the computer so long. As most of you know I am employed by Department of Ohio AMVETS and we are working a new program called Outreach, this is a program where we go on the road to out of the area communities and file claims, then we develop them back in our offices. I travel from my home to Chillicothe which is exactly 50 miles one way, then to various AMVET posts in outlying counties as much as 88 miles one way, and as close as 38 miles on the other extreme. Plus from home to office and back. Currently I am at the Ohio AMVETS Midwinter Conference in Columbus. I arrived here about 2:00 this afternoon. After doing claims at the VA from 5:00 am until 8:00 when I left for Outreach in Wellston, 48 miles east of Chillicothe. Left there at 12 noon and drove to Columbus. We are in training this weekend.
I understand frustration of those who fall into the VSO hand's, who may not put their best efforts into their job. That can happen anywhere and posssibly everywhere, in any profession, including the military. However some of us give our 100% and there are many who do that as well as me. The statement "I cannot even visualize a VSO actually getting involved enough to prepare the paperwork or attempt to understand the problem" may be true in your experience, however many do give great effort to assist the veteran or dependent. Sometimes a case is extremely difficult to prove. The VA always puts the burden of proof on the claimant. The veteran (claimant) who contacts a good service officer will get more than just guidence. I order records for my clients, that way when they are received, they can be certified by me as "a true copy." Over the years, since the development of photo copy, many posers have created real looking documents, which can fool many people. The has caused a great credibility gap between VA and the veteran, a very unfortunate situation.
You stated "I have decided I will obtain the reports, THEN use one of them for the stressor proof." My idea is have your VSO order the After Action Reports, Lessons Learned Reports and build your stressors with the back up proof.
When I did the work on several chapters of my book on Agent Orange and PTSD back in the mid 1980's, it required me to order extensive amounts of AAR's and LLR's. This was done on actual cases I was working on a developing. In those it was shown to verify stressors, when the reader understood what the document actually stated.
As far as forms go, the only form I ask my client to complete is the original application, in his, or her handwriting, or their spouses. After that I complete all forms and mail them. If my client wants to complete their own forms, fine with me, as long as I review them before mailing.
Finally on this post again "a VSO actually getting involved enough to prepare the paperwork or attempt to understand the problem" is a little harsh. Some may be that way, but most I know, who have been in this business for a while are dedicated men and women. I assure you the AMVETS NSO's are well trained and do a great job on the cases they work. As do the AMVETS SSO's who are given the same training, in the same rooms, at the same time. Also in Ohio and West Virginia are highly trained VSO's who assist veterans and dependents quite well. In Ohio the 88 counties all employ one or more county veterans service officers, who work to assist all of their veterans in successful proscecution of claims. West Virginia Department of Veterans Affairs has VSO's through out the state doing the same job, with the same expertise. I work with these folks every week and know they are dedicated.
Some times the veteran cannot remember even the dates they were in Vietnam, they do not have the DD-214, then the expect a person who just met them, to produce all of the needed proof. So we do it! At least far more often than not. Sometimes we do not get the results the first time. So my motto (posted clearly on a white platic sign with green letters, on my wall since 1983) goes into effect:
You NEVER fail
until you STOP trying!
As far as my being Navy* that is not an issue as far as I am concerned. Armed Forces rivalries are fine when Army plays Navy, or Air Force, when it comes to being shot at, who gives a hoot! On my website is my Naval experience, it is well documented. Also my experience is on the U.S. Naval Memorial website, it can be checked on www.lonesailor.org. Just type my name in the search engine DAVID A. BARKER, as I use my real name and e-mail address here.
If you check my website you will see books and articles written and published by me, there is no charge whatsoever, for anyone who wants to download them for their own use, or even to assist other veterans. They have a copyright, but only to prevent someone from selling the material.


*I have been accused by some recently, as self promoting, it is not meant to be that way, just trying to give help to those who want it.

First of all Dave, pleas don't take anything I said or will say as critical of you or your profession. I quickly generated the highest of respect for you, what you do, and how you do it.
I have in fact had two terrible encounters with what I call service officers, one was a DAV and the other hired by the county I live in. It must be hurtful for you to see all the others that have had my same experiences vent on this forum, and in effect pass judgement on the entire profession by the actions of those (few I would hope) who have no knowledge or concern for doing their jobs.
Several times a day I have learned from you things I never even remotely knew that a VSO could or would do (On an other one just today, I marvelled about your ability to actually pull up a file on the computer and check on the status of things).
What passes for a VSO here would never, even if asked, procure files or documents I need, let along certify them as authentic. I had not thought of that problem, I am going to ask the professional researcher I have hired, to attempt to get some sort of National Archive certification of the authenticity of the copies he will furnish.
And as for the Navy comment, I was not in any way suggesting service rivalry, just trying to use an example closer to home for you of the silly rules the VA has adopted.

Schwanke, you said "I have discovered that in a precedence setting case, (Pentecost v. Principi) the court of appeals for Veterans Claims indicated that a rocket or mortar attack at a large base in Vietnam may be a sufficient PTSD stressor, and a veterans claimed personal exposure to the attack will be satisfactorily corroborated by his presence with his unit whick was generally exposed to the attack."

Then when you read my post about rocket attacks you said,: "I guess I still have some problem with that, in that is seems sort of dishonest to list stressors that are lesser to me, just because the VA won't accept the ones that bother me most."

I'm not sure what you mean by that, but I don't think I was being dishonest at all. I also don't know what you mean by "stressors that are lesser to me." All I was trying to do was illustrate and confirm what you said about the Pentacost vrs Principi case, from my own experience.

Everyone reacts differently to danger and stress. Things you might not think as bothersome can be very disturbing to others.

PTSD is such an individual thing.

When I listed ten stresssors, it was at the point I was disgusted and more or less saying...which of these "Wouldn't" cause a problem. The VA had dragged out my decision for years. Some of the stressors were more horrific than that first rocketing, but to me the combined effect of that year caused my problems, and I couldn't pin it down to any one thing. As a matter of fact, I was still in denial that I even had a problem. My counselor gave me a writing assignment to describe things that happened to me there that left an impression on me. Then we used it for the basis of a stressor statement.

You said you could "kill (again)". Is killing the only thing you can relate PTSD to? I'm sure it bothers you, and I understand, but that's not the only thing that causes PTSD.

Death of a friend that causes you to fear death, threat of your own death, several other things are factored in. Seeing people wounded or dead, or handling bodies all can do it. I don't want to get graphic here because we all have our triggers, and I don't want to cause someone to relive their situations like I am doing right now explaining/defending my actions to you.

I don't think you meant your comment in a personal way, but I had to respond. On this forum many people have different levels of PTSD, and many causes. I wouldn't tell one person their understanding of what caused their problem to be dishonest, or lesser to you. If you think so, don't use that stressor.

You had said you were going to find after action reports that showed actions you had been near, and then use them for your claim. I think we're all doing the same thing. We don't know when we begin what the VA wants or needs to hear, so we tell it all. I know people who have written 10 and 15 page stressor letters. Some succient, some rambling. We're all trying to get to the same place.

Keep reading Don, and again...good luck with your claim.

Bill

PS, did you know that some people with PTSD fly off the handle a little bit? LOL.. no, really. Don't take anything I said to heart, I'm only trying to help and give you some different perspective.

quote:

I know people who have written 10 and 15 page stressor letters. Some succient, some rambling.

Hello Bill,
20 handwritten pages for me. No rambling, just statements of fact. Took me 3 weeks to write it. I sure if it were typed it would be much less pages.

You bring up some good points Brother. Flash

Sorry Bill, I see how you may have taken it, but suggesting you were being dishonest was far from my intent, I am kinda like Dave, "I will cast no stones".
I was referring completely to myself, my own personal stress during rocket or mortar attacks (I was even wounded in one) was less than other stressors for some reason. I would guess there were at least several dozen such attacks during my tour, maybe I just got used to them. There were simply other stressors where I was far more concerned about living thru them and cause more "intrusive thoughts" than the incoming fire on the base, I had used those that caused the most stress, VA didn't like them, so I am ready to use ones they do like.
I had condensed my stressors to about a paragraph each, very direct, to the point, and factual, as it was my thoughts that such style would bring the desired results. I may have been wrong on that count as well.

Flash, thanks! When you throw out so many points, one of them has to stick!!! LOL

Schwanke, I thought I said the same thing in a previous post. By the end of my tour I could sleep right through a rocket attack. Doesn't mean that first one wasn't scarey!

We all have to do what we think is right for us. You get so many different opinions as you go through this process of getting rated, that it can be hard to tell sometimes who to listen to. I wish I had met someone like Dave Barker in 1997 before I started this process, but I did have some good guidance from a Vet's rep from the unemployment office, Al StYves, who took me under his wing and pushed me along each step of the way. Al is gone now, and I miss him. Everyone should be lucky enough to have someone like that mentoring them through this process. That's sort of why I hang out talking to the younger guys at the PTSD clinic I attend, and visit these PTSD sites on the internet.

It's a shame that it takes so long to learn the "system", the "game." If we all knew every nuance of the process as we went into it, there would be a lot less stress to deal with. I don't think there is one comprehensive guide for Vets that can tell you everything. I learn new things all the time about the process and the politics of the VA.

Hang in there Don. It's kind of like hitting a Piniata, your eyes are covered and you swing your stick, and if you do it long enough, or get lucky, some treats will spill out.

Much like that with the VA, keep swinging.

Bill

Hello All,
The way I see it, the claims process is a fight with giant monster, and each piece of evidence, no matter how trivial it may seem to me, is another round in my magazine. I gave all my rounds to my VSO and let him pick and choose on what to load up with.

In the beginning, I fought the VA in a very aggressive,and rationale way...They saw me coming and almost knocked me out of the game.

I saw 'nothing' rationale about the VA claims process and even though it took awhile, it was worth the time to find a VSO that knew what rounds to load up with...and where to place them.....Flash

More bad news. My hired researcher just informed me that there are NO reports of ANY mortar or rocket attacks in the unit journals of the unit I was with (out of several dozen attacks). I am still stunned, feel like now I have to pay the price for poor unit reporting. Of course the VA expects me to go find the records, I am not even sure if such reporting was proper on unit journals. The base consisted of many units, not sure if there was a "Phu Loi Base Camp" command or log or what.
Maybe the VA just won, again. Score seems to be 12 to 0, in favor of the VA. Anybody got any guidance to offer? I am really feeling whipped, think I will go sit in a corner and cry.

Schwanke,

I suggest trying the VSO route again... I know you've had issues with a lot of them, but now you know where the bad ones are!

"Civilian" researchers don't know what the 'lingo' is, so even if they find something, you're on your own for proving it.

In my limited experience, those who don't use the VSOs get almost automatically denied quickly, because of 'format' issues. Sometimes being too wordy.

Just a thought....

quote:

Originally posted by Schwanke:
More bad news. My hired researcher just informed me that there are NO reports of ANY mortar or rocket attacks in the unit journals of the unit I was with (out of several dozen attacks). I am still stunned, feel like now I have to pay the price for poor unit reporting. Of course the VA expects me to go find the records, I am not even sure if such reporting was proper on unit journals. The base consisted of many units, not sure if there was a "Phu Loi Base Camp" command or log or what.
Maybe the VA just won, again. Score seems to be 12 to 0, in favor of the VA. Anybody got any guidance to offer? I am really feeling whipped, think I will go sit in a corner and cry.

OK why not use the tools we have here on Military.com. Go to your service forum and start looking for people who served with you. Chances are you will find more than one. Also if you remember names and where people were from when you served, start search for them. VA accepts "Buddy Statements" in support of claims. The more you obtain the better your situation will be.
Before the internet, I used to give my clients a sheet of paper and it had columns for:
Name.....Address (city/state.....Where/when served.
We then started calling information in those cities and states. It works! Believe it or not, I found a shipmate of mine who lived on Ebony Court in Brooklyn, 25 years after I had last had contact with him. His mom still lived there, she of course knew exactly where he was and contact was then possible. It takes effort.
Since the internet we have tools and a lot of them. Military.com has Buddy Search, it has branch of service forums, where you can post messages. You can also type in your unit in the computer search engine and see if there is a website. Our ship the USS Cony DD-508 (see our Cuban crisis history) has a website and that is exactly how I found it. It does take effort, on both the VSO and the veteran.
By the way, since many of my clients do not have computer access. So they still fill out the same form, we've been using since the early 80's and we search on my VA computer. On weekends it simply continues. Here it is Sunday morning 4:31am in Columbus, at the Ohio AMVETS Midwinter Conference and you have a VSO still trying to help...

Thanks Dave and C130. I needed some words of encouragement to keep going. I feel quite confident of my particular archive researcher C130, I "tested" him before hiring, he can find it if anbody can. I am going to throw some more bucks at him, have him search records of some of the many other units on my base. I only need one verified attack on any unit there to qualify I think.
I have tried some of the "buddy finder" places Dave, I will expand my search to include those you suggested as well. Kinda cute, I always thought the term "needle in a haystack" was something from a fairy tale, not a term to describe getting a VA disability approval.
By the way, I previously did another thing that probably will not provide as much return on mymoney as hoped, but I "hired" the "Institute for Crime & Trauma Survivors" to help. I saw the ad in the Vietnam Vet magazine. This guy Steve Ryan has a list of very impressive qualifications a page long, and would be most valuable for someone having troubles with the diagnosis portion of a claim. I think I wasted my money probably, since the VA appointed civilian C&P gave me a fine diagnosis already. I put this out for anyone else that might need such a service, and for comments of anyone that has used him, good or bad I would like comments from them.
Still looking for a VSO who can at least look like he understands the letters PTSD :-).

I learned something today, in reading BVA cases, I found what the VA uses to verify stressors like attacks on a base. Here is a quote:
"The U.S. Armed Services Center for Research of Unit Records (USASCRUR) is located at 7789 Cissna Road, Suite 101, Springfield, Virginia 22150. The USASCRUR conducts records research to assist Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) officials and veterans service organizations in verifying the stressing experiences described by veterans in Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) claims. The purpose of this guide is to provide information to officials who are requesting USASCRUR to provide PTSD research assistance. Veterans are strongly encouraged not to attempt to develop their cases without the assistance of service officials. (authors note: I hope after the publication of this manual this will no longer be the case). The veteran’s Official Military Personnel File (OMPF) should be reviewed by the service representative assisting the veteran before a case is sent to USASCRUR".
Here is a quote from a BVA file about my RVN base even:
"With regard to the mortar/rocket attacks, USASCRUR explained that elements of the veteran's unit were located at four major base camps. USASCRUR was able to confirm attacks at Phu Loi and Bien Hoa
Air Base, but none at Di An, where the veteran was located."
I guess I have been looking in the wrong place, since this location is "bible" for the VA and Service Officers. The sore spot is "Sorry veteran, you are not allowed to see this information." The VA game is for me to guess what is in there, if I guess correctly, I win. Sure reminds me of some sort of childs game.

quote:

I guess I have been looking in the wrong place, since this location is "bible" for the VA and Service Officers. The sore spot is "Sorry veteran, you are not allowed to see this information." The VA game is for me to guess what is in there, if I guess correctly, I win. Sure reminds me of some sort of childs game.

You need to be seeing a veterans organization service officer for assistance. We are continually trained, not only to know the law, know where to look, but also know who to ask when we do not find what we are looking for, to support the case and the veterans issues.
When a person is need of legal representation in a court of law, the judge does not grant the person information, or access to the books of the court, they expect the person to obtain competent representation. That is what we do as veterans service officers.
Constantly you will read on these forums veterans bashing the veterans organizations and their service officers. Usually I do not respond, as what good does it do? None to very little. However when it relates to helping veterans on the forums I moderate, you will see my responses.
Now and then, a veteran may simply not have a good claim. That happens. Some of my most difficult times have been explaining to a person, that their less than 2 months service does not qualify them for a VA pension. They become angry with me. The VA rules are not made by the veterans service officer, they are the guidelines we must work within to do our jobs.
I have also posted on some forums, in order to get complicated appeals proscecuted you need to find a service officer, who can think out side of the box. This is a person who knows the VA rules and regulations, but knows that they are not required to respond to the veteran in the programmed VA responses.
I have been accused of tooting my own horn by several posters on Military.com in the past. I feel they were incorrect, it was simply letting my experience be known. On my website you can read my annual report to Ohio AMVETS (it is required for me to file). The new money brought into my clients each year is in the millions. If I received a lawyers portion, my income last year would have been $2,400,000, the year before nearly the same and all the way back into the 1980's. However we do not take the veterans money, the veteran keeps it all.
Please find a veterans service officer whom you can work with and you will be far better off than those who represent themselves.

My personal opinion is, that as much info as you have dug up, etc etc, is all moot, if it isn't presented in the format the VA accepts.

I.E., just because you can find the information, doesn't mean, that you on your own, are proficient in the laws and guidelines laid out by the VA. THis means that while you may have info to proves your claim, you may not be highlighting the things that cause the VA to look at it more seriously, or allow them to approve you.

My uncle went the route you are Schwanke, years ago, and got nowhere. Finally, after he had several malignant melanomas removed from his face and arms, and lung cancer that persisted, his wife begged him to try again. This time, because he was so ill, she insisted he go to a VSO.

No new information was found, however, the VSO presented the info in such a way, that my uncle's AO claim was approved in less than 3 months!

Now I'm not saying that your's will or won't be approved that fast, BUT, sometimes we spin our wheels and get wrapped around the axel, when really the thing that would prove our claim is staring us right in the face all along...

Just a thought.

c130aviatrix
Thanks!

Schwanke, I don't know how people can make it any more clear to you.

Stop doing all this yourself. Spend the time finding a GOOD Veterans Service Officer, ask around local Veterans groups during meeting nights, call a vet center, look on line.

I feel bad nothing is happening, but all it takes is one form to be misplaced and the whole thing can go sour.

Please listen to Dave and c130aviatrix

quote:

So my motto (posted clearly on a white plastic sign with green letters, on my wall since 1983) goes into effect:
You NEVER fail
Until you STOP trying!

It is not easy to win a PTSD case without medals of valor and a verifiable stressor. However, we have won thousands without the medals of valor, lost very few, dog gone few at that. Simple "Buddy Statements" as well as unit website documentation. Many units are now on the 'net with websites, with actual events in print, just waiting to be copied, or simply printed. It takes effort on the veterans part and the veterans service officer.
Remeber:
You NEVER fail
Until you STOP trying!