Yes, I am old fashhioned and a MCP but they wanted equality and this is a part of it. Sorry to say PTSD knows no sexual bounderies. I just hope that they get treated properly instead of getting the shaft from the VA like old vets get. All Our Troops deserve better.

At Ease nay-sayers........WE ALL are fighting this war. If you pick up a weapon and war on, all will receive the treatment needed. We all have the right to speak our opinions about the gender of America's warriors; here's mine:

Let's all do what we can (man-woman)and get this damn war over with!

We have wonderful women serving this nation in very dangerous jobs. They have my admiration exactly as do the men. However it seems as if some people find objections to equality. So be it. The object however is equality, that is the reason we fight to preserve American ideals.
It does not make any difference regarding a persons sex (or gender), PTSD is bad.

From the book DSM-IV, word for word

309.81 DSM-IV Criteria for Posttraumatic Stress Disorder

A. The person has been exposed to a traumatic event in which both of the following have been present:

(1) the person experienced, witnessed, or was confronted with an event or events that involved actual or threatened death or serious injury, or a threat to the physical integrity of self or others (2) the person's response involved intense fear, helplessness, or horror. Note: In children, this may be expressed instead by disorganized or agitated behavior.

B. The traumatic event is persistently reexperienced in one (or more) of the following ways:

(1) recurrent and intrusive distressing recollections of the event, including images, thoughts, or perceptions. Note: In young children, repetitive play may occur in which themes or aspects of the trauma are expressed.

(2) recurrent distressing dreams of the event. Note: In children, there may be frightening dreams without recognizable content.

(3) acting or feeling as if the traumatic event were recurring (includes a sense of reliving the experience, illusions, hallucinations, and dissociative flashback episodes, including those that occur upon awakening or when intoxicated). Note: In young children, trauma-specific reenactment may occur.

(4) intense psychological distress at exposure to internal or external cues that symbolize or resemble an aspect of the traumatic event.

(5) physiological reactivity on exposure to internal or external cues that symbolize or resemble an aspect of the traumatic event.

C. Persistent avoidance of stimuli associated with the trauma and numbing of general responsiveness (not present before the trauma), as indicated by three (or more) of the following:

(1) efforts to avoid thoughts, feelings, or conversations associated with the trauma

(2) efforts to avoid activities, places, or people that arouse recollections of the trauma

(3) inability to recall an important aspect of the trauma

(4) markedly diminished interest or participation in significant activities

(5) feeling of detachment or estrangement from others

(6) restricted range of affect (e.g., unable to have loving feelings)

(7) sense of a foreshortened future (e.g., does not expect to have a career, marriage, children, or a normal life span)

D. Persistent symptoms of increased arousal (not present before the trauma), as indicated by two (or more) of the following:

(1) difficulty falling or staying asleep
(2) irritability or outbursts of anger
(3) difficulty concentrating
(4) hypervigilance
(5) exaggerated startle response

E. Duration of the disturbance (symptoms in Criteria B, C, and D) is more than one month.

F. The disturbance causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

Specify if:
Acute: if duration of symptoms is less than 3 months
Chronic: if duration of symptoms is 3 months or more

Specify if:
With Delayed Onset: if onset of symptoms is at least 6 months after the stressor

Not even one, eh? Nice comment on the state of our military. Gosh, I feel so much better.

This is the ONLY conflict in recent history in which we have allowed HUGE numbers of older soldiers not only to sign-up, but to then serve in Combat. Reason: Because they have made the requirements LESS intense than they were because they are short on recruits.

I don't care how healthy a person is, at 43 you are NOT as physically fit nor do you have the endurance of a 23 year old soldier. So there aren't any 23 year old E-6's with experience who can do the job as well as you, at 43? Nonsense man.

I am glad you are healthy, and even gladder you made it out of that sand-heap and home, alive.

But I would rather have #10 twenty-three year old Marines with 3-5 years combat experience coming to my rescue in a fire-fight than ANY #10 forty-three year old Marines - with the exact same amount of experience, any day.

No offense... But the truth is that if there were more 20-23 year olds signing up to serve, you would never have been sent there in the 1st place.[/quote]
---WG

Naw. That ain't the truth. I'm also old enough to recognize someone who is looking to measure something in themsleves by consistently endeavouring to spark heated responses.

Don't get me wrong, the boys lasted long enough to accomplish their missions, but that was about it. We woke 'em up, and we put 'em to bed.
And no, there is no 23 year old E-6 that can do everything that I can do. They just haven't had the time to lead an infantry squad, drive, gun, command Abrams, Bradleys, M-60s, M1113s, M1114s, M1117s, work Air Assault with Hueys and Blackhawks, command convoys...jeez the list could on. All of it by virtue of the time I've had to devote to it. I can't even begin to list the human elements. The older guys were alot better at discerning who among the populace were out to kill us and who were just average folks trying to get to work, or home. There is no substitute for experience.
And if you were really clued in you'd know that they've lowered no physical standards to allow older soldiers an easier ride. You'd know that about a decade ago the Army increased the standards at around the thirty-year old range beyond what was expected of 18 year-olds.

I'm kind of smiling right now because I remember when I was a young grunt...man we were hard chargin', running straight at every problem and taking it on. Lucky for us we were led by two "old" platoon sergeants, both Vietnam vets. We'd be sneakin' through the tall grass, thinking we were all that when one or the other would pop up out of nowhere, surprise us and offer little tidbits of advice: "Never move with the moon in your face. Always have at least one man among you move without night vision, he'll hear and smell better than the rest of you." Stuff like that. Those guys were the real deal, and if they saw all the X-boxes and snivel gear our young troopers pack into a combat zone these days, they'd die laughing.

And I ain't a Marine. I don't even play one on TV. =)

On Veterans Day, The Military Channel had tributes to service members from many conflicts including Iraq/A-stan. It was very moving. I was in tears most of the day. It put a face on those brave young women and men who are fighting to recover from life changing injuries. I hope all of the help they need to heal is made available soon. Thank you to all who have served, and my prayers are with those who are living with PTSD (family members included). May you continue to heal and find peace. To those who have lost loved ones, you are also in my prayers. They are not forgotten.

Women in medical roles to avoid PTSD? WTF? I suppose having peopel screaming, with guts & blood flying out, and burned stumps for limbs, and skin sloughing off from burns, is going to let them all go home and sleep happy little contented dreams?

Seriously--

If women can do it, let'em. But there was one truth mentioned earlier that must be reiterated: Army recruiting makes it sound like VoTech school with uniforms. I've heard that the new Basic Training is emphasising the "warrior" mindset above all else (taking a chapter from the USMC fight book) but that doesn't negate the initial recruiting spiel about 'join the Army-- learn a skill! Get hired!'

You're not even in yet, and they're already mapping out what will happen when you get out!


But anyhow... as said, let women do the job if they can. We un-*** wimpy guys that can't meet the standards, so as long as "special" standards aren't made to lower the bar, then I say grab a weapon and come on in, ladies. It's your country, too, after all.

quote:

Ruanne
Member

Posted Wed 02 January 2008 01:19 PM Hide Post
I really would have appreciated a little more depth to the story as well. If these stats are true, they merit our attention. We should address the problem at hand, honestly and without political agenda or pride.

Are women inherently more prone to PTSD? Are we simply more likely to report it and seek help? Will our higher rates continue at the five, ten, and fifteen year mark, or will they level off to comparable male levels? How much of this PTSD is due to, or exacerbated by sexual assault and trauma? ( A separate issue entirely, but it has to be controlled for for this data to make any sense.)

Is there something actual combat units (Infantry, Armor, etc) do, which we women cannot serve in, which support units are not doing to support their troops and prevent full-blown PTSD? Is there some aspect of training, either at the entry or unit level, which needs to change in order to grant women more emotional resiliance? IE should we train in all-women Basic Training Battalions, should we undergo an extra measure of desensitization over and beyond our male compatriots?

I mean, I know all these questions cannot be addressed in one measly article based off one study! But I'd appreciate if a few of the questions were addressed, or at least acknowledged, and a few more quotes were gathered from actual women sufferers of PTSD.

"I do not intend to demean them,...I am just old fashioned, and feel they serve better as medical, and other non-combat related fields.

I speak from experience,...not from a book."

The article was a little dishonest. We DO serve in official support duties only. The problem is that there are no defined front lines, and merely travelling between camps puts you in the combat zone. There are precious few job categories which exempt you from danger entirely, and in order to ensure women had only these safer jobs, we'd have to have quite a few more men to fill the roles you took from the women who served in them. We started this deal when we started the all-volunteer military nearly 30 years ago, and it will be very difficult to backtrack now, even IF solid proof of rampant psychiatric troubles comes to light.

As far as medics go, they see far more death and dismemberment and chaos than most Infantrymen. They are the ones who patch up people with the worst imaginable injuries, and then go home to deal with the psychological consequences, and many of them serve in the line of fire on convoys. I would hardly call their job "safer" either psychologically or physically. Give that little label to certain categories of us intel types, maybe.

to bad these hands only clap instead of salute. your post deserves a full honor salute.
thank you for pointing out there are other ways to get PTSD besides combat.I can imagine the hair crawling up your back driving from one combat zone to another.this unknown factor is as much stressful as combat it self. and your take on the medic,he is a silent stressed out hero.

proving how badly PTSD education is needed... i was a 'non-combatant' as an engineer -- though when you are near front lines, how you're a non-combatant, i'd like to know -- but simply in a convoy driving from one area to another, we were surrounded by IEDs (formerly referred to as LANDMINES) and well, we hit em.

or the women (and men) who are sexually assaulted, military members AND non-military members.

PTSD is not strictly a combat disorder. what about the women, who are in so called "non-line (i.e. non-combat)" roles -- nurses, doctors, chaplaincy -- who have to attempt to stop pumping bleeders on 18 year olds who've been severely wounded in combat? or chaplains who have to adminsiter counselling, last rites, ETC to dying military members, but at a 'rear' location??? these folks develop PTSD too -- and aren't in combat.

we need more PTSD awareness, to help stop the ignoramouses from spouting their 'truths'...

besides that fact -- more and more women are stepping up to roles in the military, as more and more 'men' are running away. i recently was chatting with a recruiter next to our grocery store, and he stated, in the last year since he's been recruiting for the army, he's recruited more WOMEN, than men. hmmmm...

stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

Like Forrest Gump said, "stress happens" (or something like that). That must have been the case with our female former-POW hero (Bronze Star), Jessica Lynch. Musta been delayed stress. After all, it didn't show when she wrote (er, put her name on) her book and made big moola. It didn't show when the donations came forth from the American public that allowed her truck-driving daddy's house to be expanded and remodeled to accomodate her after she got out of the military hospital. It didn't show when she got a full scholarship to the University of WV so she could earn a degree to be a teacher. It didn't show when she dropped out of college and gave birth to a baby fathered out-of-wedlock by her boyfriend. BUT, it must have shown when the Democrats paraded her before Congress to tell them that her heroics were all lies, (just like the war), and she did not deserve any medals. (Wish John Kerry had the guts to do the same!). Yep, all that B.S. had to be late-onset of PTSD!

personally, i don't care how old someone is who is helping me out if i were in a fire fight -- as long as they are good at their job, and are willing to do it.

did it ever occur to anyone, that someone who's a 43 year old, 20-year career marine, in a combat job, is pretty dang good at their job -- that's why they've SURVIVED to 43??? please folks.

does a 23 year old have the physical resiliancey that a 43 year old has lost? yes, sure, but is that what saves your bacon? not necessarily.

think of all the 'big strong, strapping' marines, infantrymen, etc that were mowed down first in viet nam, and other wars, BECAUSE of their size / strength, and the little shites that no one thought would make it, had better endurance, better maneuverability etc, and EXPERIENCE, that made up for any lack of physical might.... the guy who'd been in 2 tours in viet nam, i'd rather have as my buddy next to me, than the 20 year old green kid, who wouldn't know his you know what from a jungle snake.

no offense, but experiences sometimes is the better choice....

and if 23 year olds aren't stepping up to VOLUNTEER, I'll take ANYONE who'll come to my aid, if they can pass the requirements.

I have to differ with you. Have served with a number of outstanding women who are true combat veterans. The time for "old fashioned" is over. And these issues are hitting my office on a regular basis for both women and men. While we aren't at the pace of WWII (multiple years in the "zone" without relief); we have gone far beyond the 365 and done (unless you volunteered, or were voluntold for additional tours) that was the case for many veterans of Korea and Vietnam.

quote:

Originally posted by 6145060:
I think shes cute,....war is a mans world,....sure, our female veterans are doing an outstanding job,....but, is it worth the obvious damage to them? I do not intend to demean them,...I am just old fashioned, and feel they serve better as medical, and other non-combat related fields.

I speak from experience,...not from a book.

quote:

That must have been the case with our female former-POW hero (Bronze Star), Jessica Lynch. Musta been delayed stress. After all, it didn't show when she wrote (er, put her name on) her book and made big moola.

You need to review Jessica Lynch's situation. She was used by the Army and politicians against her will for political purposes. She is a service connected disabled veteran rated at 80%, for her wounds, who served in a hostile fire zone.
Attacking those who served this nation, just because they were pawns by Army brass is no reason to attack an individual veteran.
I am speaking to you as the Lead Moderator on the PTSD Information and Links Discussion Boards.
Dave Barker

you are so right chaplain. it's been a few years since i've been retired from injuries, but let me tell you -- trying, on a commander level, to meet taskings demands, when everyone that was deployable had exceeded their deployment days per the rolling calendar??? and then still having to come up with 28 names from all your shops, and explain to the group, WHY you didn't have anyone that wasn't over their limit?? and having to sooth upset, and angry spouses that just had their sig other come home, only to be gone again for another 180 days??? (at that time).

i was seeing the chaplain about once a week myself, just from having to deal with the strain of ridiculous requirements, and destress from making difficult to impossible decisions, and such. sheesh.

if we had to pick from one gender or another, it would've made my job even worse, not too mention, stressed even MORE the troops we were responsible for.

and yes... volunTOLD... i.e. (are you a volunteer for special duty? no, ma'am i'm not, well, you are now")...

quote:

Originally posted by DaveBarker:

quote:

That must have been the case with our female former-POW hero (Bronze Star), Jessica Lynch. Musta been delayed stress. After all, it didn't show when she wrote (er, put her name on) her book and made big moola.

You need to review Jessica Lynch's situation. She was used by the Army and politicians against her will for political purposes. She is a service connected disabled veteran rated at 80%, for her wounds, who served in a hostile fire zone.
Attacking those who served this nation, just because they were pawns by Army brass is no reason to attack an individual veteran.
I am speaking to you as the Lead Moderator on the PTSD Information and Links Discussion Boards.
Dave Barker

Well said Dave Barker,well said!

it is my opinion that there is no such thing as a 'non-combat' job in today's military. heck, i don't even think there is such a thing as a non-combat job OUTSIDE of today's military, what with drive-by shootings, and random acts of violence.

quote:

Originally posted by DocVQone:
Like Forrest Gump said, "stress happens" (or something like that). That must have been the case with our female former-POW hero (Bronze Star), Jessica Lynch. Musta been delayed stress. After all, it didn't show when she wrote (er, put her name on) her book and made big moola. It didn't show when the donations came forth from the American public that allowed her truck-driving daddy's house to be expanded and remodeled to accomodate her after she got out of the military hospital. It didn't show when she got a full scholarship to the University of WV so she could earn a degree to be a teacher. It didn't show when she dropped out of college and gave birth to a baby fathered out-of-wedlock by her boyfriend. BUT, it must have shown when the Democrats paraded her before Congress to tell them that her heroics were all lies, (just like the war), and she did not deserve any medals. (Wish John Kerry had the guts to do the same!). Yep, all that B.S. had to be late-onset of PTSD!

this is the most UNEDUCATED comment i've seen here in a long while.

if you know ANYTHING about PTSD, among other mental health disorders, you would know, that stress disorders most often ARE delayed in onset. not, BOOM TRAUMA, BOOM SAME DAY PTSD.

and, as stated, Jessica Lynch, unwillingly, became a tool of propaganda. a young kid, male or female, in that type of media parade, with politicians touting this and that and the other about you and your politics which may or may not be correct, rarely has any say in which way they are portrayed. she was in a military hospital bed for crying out loud when this started -- what? you don't think the Army Public Affairs folks werent' all up in that one???

as for her having a child 'out of wedlock', what the HECK does that have to do with the price of rice in China??? the baby's FATHER had a child out of wedlock too -- or for some reason, are men excused out of that particular responsibility??? it's not 1920, it's 2008, and i could count HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS of single unwed military DADDY's over the years -- so what praytell, has that to do with anyone's disability or military service?

many women AND men, go to college, get jobs, get assistance from their local communities after being seen as local 'heros', coming home from war, it doesn't mean months later, when the dust settles, the camera lights are gone, and the halls are quiet, the demons don't come out...

anyone who thinks that media circus was in any way an accurate portrayl of a military veteran coming home from a combat zone, needs not only to have their head examined, but raises serious questions, about their knowledge of the military at all..

The reality is that veterans, whether male or female, do not receive the employment support subsequent to military service, especially in combat, that is just.
Given the aforementioned, it is just in my mind to put the burden of proof on the government to disprove that one has become disabled through military service rather than on the veteran.
Vietnam veterans, especially combat veterans, made significant sacrifices economically, through disruptions in their careers, discrimination in employment and education because of their veterans status, and discrimination because of their gender and race (by law).
Because a second economic and political war was waged by the American government and the American public on returning Vietnam veterans, the number of American citizens willing and able to serve in our military has declined substantially despite a significant increase in our population.
There should be economic compensation to all veterans, either male or female, for the economic and social discrimination they received upon their return from military service, especially combat duty.

Oooooooh! Boy, did I touch a nerve, or what? Sorry, maam! Did not mean to offend your delicate sensibilities.

Let me set the record straight. First,I was in no way attacking PVT Jessica Lynch as a veteran or diminishing in any way her contribution as a member of the U.S. Military. Got that?

Secondly, the discussion was about PTSD and it's increasing effect on female veterans. As
Applesandonions rightly points out, PTSD often happens long after the trauma is experienced in a war-time setting. As a result, it can impair DECISION-MAKING long after the event. Decision-making also includes LIFE-CHOICES. I pointed out some of Jessic Lynch's life-choices AFTER her military service that may or may not have been affected by PTSD. As a former combat-corpsman in Vietnam, I am fully aware of the medical ramifications of the disease, unlike some who did not participate in combat.

Thirdly, I was not attacking her personnally as a veteran and I stated nothing that was non-factual. I think she was used and abused by a system that was desperately looking for a "hero" in the midst of a war characterized by confusion, carnage, and political-infighting at home. The "system" not only includes the U.S. Army and the Department of Defense, it also includes those fat-cat politicians that paraded her before congressional hearings so they could make their own political points against the war. Once again, she was "used". Another decision-process on her part that may or may not have been affected by her combat experience.

Lastly, while my "attack" (as described by Dave Barker) was no such thing, perhaps those who live in "glass-houses" ought to drop their stones and get a grip on reality. In the meantime, I shall be trying to improve my "uneducated" status, Seeing my doctor to "have my head examined", and reading up to refresh my "military knowledge" that seems to be so deficient. I shall also enroll in the local school of engineering to brush up on my combat-medical, independent-duty Corpsman skills. Have a nice day!

quote:

Originally posted by 67NOV:
I've seen less critical stories get way more column space. I think a subject such as this warrants a little more space.

In absolute agreement...

quote:

Originally posted by DocVQone:
Oooooooh! Boy, did I touch a nerve, or what? Sorry, maam! Did not mean to offend your delicate sensibilities.

Let me set the record straight. First,I was in no way attacking PVT Jessica Lynch as a veteran or diminishing in any way her contribution as a member of the U.S. Military. Got that?

Secondly, the discussion was about PTSD and it's increasing effect on female veterans. As
Applesandonions rightly points out, PTSD often happens long after the trauma is experienced in a war-time setting. As a result, it can impair DECISION-MAKING long after the event. Decision-making also includes LIFE-CHOICES. I pointed out some of Jessic Lynch's life-choices AFTER her military service that may or may not have been affected by PTSD. As a former combat-corpsman in Vietnam, I am fully aware of the medical ramifications of the disease, unlike some who did not participate in combat.

Thirdly, I was not attacking her personnally as a veteran and I stated nothing that was non-factual. I think she was used and abused by a system that was desperately looking for a "hero" in the midst of a war characterized by confusion, carnage, and political-infighting at home. The "system" not only includes the U.S. Army and the Department of Defense, it also includes those fat-cat politicians that paraded her before congressional hearings so they could make their own political points against the war. Once again, she was "used". Another decision-process on her part that may or may not have been affected by her combat experience.

Lastly, while my "attack" (as described by Dave Barker) was no such thing, perhaps those who live in "glass-houses" ought to drop their stones and get a grip on reality. In the meantime, I shall be trying to improve my "uneducated" status, Seeing my doctor to "have my head examined", and reading up to refresh my "military knowledge" that seems to be so deficient. I shall also enroll in the local school of engineering to brush up on my combat-medical, independent-duty Corpsman skills. Have a nice day!

delicate sensibilities??? please, i've mucked around in the mud, and gone wit