Why have we not stopped using the vulnerable Humvees for patrolling in Iraq. It seems to me a "no brainer" that using tanks instead would dramatically lower the loss of life from various road ambushes that a tank could just shrug off.

Am I missing something here?

Yes, logistics. It would require a massive amount of tanks to replace all our hmmwvs in iraq. Not to mention the time and money it would take to train everyone as a tank crew, the time spent training extra people to service them, or the cost to build all the extra tanks that would be needed. You have to remember tanks aren't the end all be all either, they still are hit by ieds and efps. They shrug off some, but not all.

Pentagon to Speed Up Deployment of MRAP Vehicles

(Source: US Department of Defense; issued May 10, 2007)

WASHINGTON --- Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates is exploring ways to speed up the timetable for getting more Mine Resistant Ambush Protected Vehicles to troops in Iraq.

Gates told reporters during yesterday’s Pentagon news conference that he’s impressed by what he’s read about the MRAPs and the improved troop protection they offer over up-armored Humvees.

He cited an article that noted that no Marines had been killed during 300 incidents in which their MRAPs were involved in improvised-explosive-device attacks. “That certainly got my attention,” he said.

The MRAP’s raised, V-shaped underbelly deflects the force of IEDs and other blasts from below.

Sixty-five MRAPs in use in Iraq are saving Marines’ lives, Lt. Gen. Emerson Garner, the Marine Corps’ deputy commandant for programs and resources, told a congressional committee earlier this year.

“Our experience is that Marines in these vehicles have been four or five times safer than a Marine in an armored Humvee,” Garner told members of the House and Senate Sea Power and Expeditionary Forces subcommittees. “Based on this experience, we recently decided to replace our armored Humvees in theater on a one-for-one basis with MRAPs.”

Gates said he supports that effort and hopes to get the Army to speed up its procurement timetable for the vehicles, too. “My understanding … is that the Army has been recalibrating its interest and has substantially increased the number of these vehicles they think they can use,” he said.

The services have ordered about 7,700 of the vehicles, at a cost of about $8 billion. Gates plan to meet with Army and Marine Corps officials tomorrow to discuss their MRAP procurement plans and explore ways to accelerate them.

Up-armored Humvees offered the best protection available when they were fielded, but Gates said MRAPs provide even more. “Now we have something better, and we’re going to get that to the field as best we can,” he said.

Marine Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called MRAPs an example of how industry has stepped up to the plate to come up with solutions to military needs. “I think what you have is a natural evolution of technology and very sharp people in business and industry looking at the problem and devising different ways to defeat the problem,” he said.

While acknowledging the benefit of the MRAPs, Pace cautioned that they don’t represent an end-all to the dangers of IEDs.

“There’s no solution out there that’s going to protect everybody from everything all the time,” he said. “What you try to do is … provide the best protection you can that still allows a soldier (or) Marine to be able to go out and do the job they need to do.”

Giving every deployed troop a private M-1 Abrams tank would probably be the best protection, but even tanks are vulnerable to some weapons, Pace said.

He added that most jobs required in the combat zone can’t be accomplished while rumbling around the city inside a tank.

“So you’ve got to find the right balance between force protection and the mission that needs to be done,” he said. (ends)


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Transcript of Pentagon’s May 9, 2007 Press Briefing (excerpt)

(Source: US Department of Defense; issued May 10, 2007)

DoD Operational Update Briefing with Secretary Gates and General Pace from the Pentagon Briefing Room, Arlington Va.


QUESTION: The MRAP program, the Mine Resistant Armor Program (sic/Ambush Protected). You sent the memo last week to the service secretaries of the Navy and asking them to come back Friday with a plan, an approach, to accelerate procurement. This is the first program you've really weighed in on from what I can tell. What prompted the memo? And also, you mentioned in it your concern about a wide variance in the approach between the Army and the Marines in using the vehicle. Could you elaborate a little bit?

SEC. GATES: Well, I think the first thing that caught my attention, as is often the case, was a newspaper article that indicated that out of something like 300 incidents involving IEDs, where these MRAP vehicles were involved, no Marines had been killed. And that certainly got my attention. And the more we looked into it, it was clear that there was a lot of interest in this. There's clearly interest in it on the Hill. They've added money to the supplemental to buy more MRAPs.

My concern is that the rate of production is nowhere near what it needs to be to meet the demand on the part of either the Army or the Marine Corps, and there's several different categories of these things. And one of the questions I had -- the Marines had actually at one point ordered a lot more of these vehicles than the Army had, and that was the basis of my question about how they looked at it differently.

My understanding -- I haven't seen a piece of paper on it -- is that the Army has been recalibrating its interest and has substantially increased the number of these vehicles they think they can use.


QUESTION: General Pace, you were around for the controversy about we don't have enough up-armored humvees. The Pentagon spent billions of dollars to get about 12,000, 13,000 in theater. Now you have to buy a new vehicle almost supplanting the humvee. What went wrong? Was that vehicle not effective in the long run?

GEN. PACE: Oh, I think what you have is a natural evolution of technology and very sharp people in business and industry looking at the problem and devising different ways to defeat that problem. And the up-armored humvee --


QUESTION: You said people -- sharp people in industry.

GEN. PACE: No, I mean sharp people in industry looking for ways to defeat that problem -- or to protect us from that problem. So the up-armored humvee and then the enhanced armor on the humvees -- same thing with protective body armor -- a certain way to defend yourself, then another manufacturer determines how to do it with -- thinner and lighter.

The same thing happens throughout the business world as people tackle problems. What this is the next evolution of vehicles that is responding to the underbelly attacks that sometimes take place. So it's a natural progression, I believe, of lighter, more effective, more resistant armor, both personal and vehicle.

SEC. GATES: I would that -- to your point -- it also is a reflection of the fact that we are dealing with a smart, agile enemy. And they are adjusting their tactics and their capabilities as we move along, and so, you know, we have the up-armored humvees, and they're the best we had and we got as many of them to the field as we could. Now we have something better, and we're going to get that to the field as best we can. But these are huge vehicles, first of all. These things are about the size of a bus, as far as I can tell. And -- is that about right?

GEN. PACE: Yes, sir. And there's no solution out there that's going to protect everybody from everything all the time.

What you try to do is, you try to provide the best protection you can that still allows a soldier, Marine to be able to go out and do the job they need to do.

So if you put everybody, each soldier, inside of his own private M-1 tank, he would have great protection, but there are still devices out there that can destroy that tank, and he would not be able to do his job, because his job is not to rumble around the city inside of a tank.

So you've got to find the right balance between force protection and the mission that needs to be done.

-ends-



Ultimately, the Pentagon could buy over 15,000 Mine-Resistant, Ambush-Protected Vehicles (MRAP) like this Cougar used by the US Marines in Iraq. (DoD photo)

If I remember correctly we have about 900 M1 tanks in Iraq vs 12,000 Humvees. Big difference in numbers. We only have about 8,000 or so M1 tanks in the entire US inventory.

Additionally, about 80 of those tanks in Iraq have been disabled. The M1 is not invincible.

This is from public news sources.

And the fact that the M1 is not a troop carrier and not as maneuverable in tight situations. The Humvee is a good vehicle and for the most part, they have armor now that does save lives. Also, M1s are pretty expensive to use. Can you imagine the cost?

US Army Rushes to Deploy New Armored Vehicles

(Source: US Department of Defense; issued June 20, 2007)

WASHINGTON --- The Army is working with its sister services to ramp up production of the Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicle and speed up the timetable for getting it to deployed troops, Pete Geren, the Army secretary nominee, said yesterday.

Speaking to the Senate Armed Services Committee during his confirmation hearing, Geren, currently the acting secretary, said he shares the Army’s commitment to getting MRAPs to Iraq and Afghanistan “as quickly as we possibly can.”

Geren noted that Army Lt. Gen. Ray Odierno, commander of Multinational Corps Iraq, has requested more than 17,000 of the new armored vehicles to replace Humvees. Army leaders are evaluating which Humvees need to be replaced, based on the missions they are used to conduct, and to set priorities for getting MRAPs fielded, he said.

“We’re working with the Navy and the Marines to ramp up the production capacity so that we can get these to the theaters as fast as possible,” he said. “I think that we have to look at them as a vehicle that'll part of Army going forward.”

The Marines have had good success with the MRAPs, which have raised, V-shaped underbellies that deflect the force of improvised explosive devices and other blasts from below.

Sixty-five MRAPs in use in Iraq are saving Marines’ lives, Lt. Gen. Emerson Garner, the Marine Corps’ deputy commandant for programs and resources, told a congressional committee earlier this year.

“Our experience is that Marines in these vehicles have been four or five times safer than a Marine in an armored Humvee,” Garner told members of the House and Senate Sea Power and Expeditionary Forces subcommittees. “Based on this experience, we recently decided to replace our armored Humvees in theater on a one-for-one basis with MRAPs.”

The Marines’ success caught Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates’ attention, and he’s pushing to speed up the timetable for getting more MRAPs to troops in Iraq.

Up-armored Humvees offered the best protection available when they were fielded, but Gates told Pentagon reporters in May that MRAPs provide even more. “Now we have something better, and we’re going to get that to the field as best we can,” he said.

Navy Adm. Edmund Giambastiani, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and head of the Joint Requirements Oversight Council, recently visited Aberdeen Proving Ground, Md., with other defense leaders to see the various versions of the MRAP being considered.

“MRAP vehicles have saved lives in Iraq and will continue to save lives,” the admiral said. “It is the best vehicle protection we have to date.”

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Gates Asks Congress to Transfer More Funds to MRAP Program

(Source: US Department of Defense; issued July 18, 2007)

WASHINGTON --- Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates yesterday asked Congress for approval to transfer nearly $1.2 billion to the Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicle program to get an estimated 3,500 of the vehicles to Iraq by the year’s end, defense officials announced today.

The funds, to be added to almost $4 billion already programmed for MRAPs this year, will speed up the timetable for getting deployed troops the best armored vehicles possible, said John Young, director of defense research and engineering and chairman of the Defense Department’s MRAP task force.

By reprogramming an additional $1.2 billion to the program, the department can sign contracts for an additional 2,650 MRAPs, Young told Pentagon reporters today. This will bring the department’s total MRAP order to 6,415.

Nearly three-quarters of those MRAPs are slated for delivery by Dec. 31. “By the end of the year, we hope to have delivered 3,935 vehicles,” he said.

Factoring in the time required to equip those vehicles with jammers, communication equipment and other gear and to deliver them to the theater, Young estimated that about 3,500 of the MRAPs will be in Iraq by Dec. 31.

Meeting last night with the House and Senate Armed Services and Appropriation committees, Gates emphasized the importance of getting the V-hulled vehicles that deflect underbelly blasts to the combat zone as quickly as possible, Pentagon Press Secretary Geoff Morrell said.

Gates told Congress “time is of the essence,” because “every month troops go without MRAPs could indeed cost lives,” Morrell said. “The secretary came away from his meeting confident that Congress recognizes the urgency of this request, and he is hopeful they will quickly approve it,” he said.

Congress already has shown solid support for MRAPs. The legislators added $1.2 billion to the department’s initial $2.6 billion request for the program for fiscal 2007, Young said.

If approved, the fund transfer to the MRAP program will make it the Defense Department’s third-largest acquisition program, he noted. Only the missile defense and Joint Strike Fighter programs will be bigger.

But dollars alone aren’t enough to get MRAPs to the field, defense officials recognize. “There are no parking lots anywhere where we can go and buy lots of MRAPs,” said Marine Corps Brig. Gen. Michael Brogan, commander of Marine Corps Systems Command.

Another problem is that no existing production lines were equipped to pump out as many MRAPs as the department needs as fast as it needs them.

A joint Defense Department team is jumping through hoops to cut through those obstacles and move MRAP procurement as quickly as possible, Young said. “This is not being handled in a business-as-usual fashion,” he said.

The Defense Department has dramatically compressed the normal contracting process, worked around the clock to test potential vehicles, and helped industry aggressively ramp up production capacity, Morrell told reporters.

Four companies currently produce MRAPs, and another may join the effort soon if its prototype model measures up, Brogan said. These companies are quickly increasing their production rates to keep up with demand.

But the MRAP task force’s first challenge, Young said, was to make sure the materials and parts required for MRAPs were being produced at rates fast enough to keep up with production.

For example, the tire industry was able to produce only about 1,000 of the large, heavy-duty MRAP tires per month in June. To keep pace with plans to build about 1,300 MRAPs per month by December, at least 6,000 tires a month would be needed.

“We have taken steps to help two vendors increase their ability to build tires, and we are buying tires as fast as they can produce them so that we don’t have a shortage,” Young said.

The task force faced similar issues with steel, axles, engines and other MRAP components, and is taking similar measures to ensure they’re available, he said.

To help their efforts, Gates assigned the MRAP program a “DX” rating in June to ensure other defense programs don’t interfere with MRAP production, said Young. DX ratings are reserved for top-priority defense acquisition programs.

“The DX rating provides MRAP the highest-priority access to components and materials if supplier capacity cannot meet the demand from all programs,” Young explained.

Another challenge in MRAP acquisition is ensuring the vehicles produced are up to standard and provide the best protection possible, he said.

Testers at the Army’s Aberdeen Test Center, at Aberdeen Proving Ground, Md., are putting MRAPs through the paces, Brogan said. Working three shifts around the clock, they’re evaluating prototypes to ensure they provide adequate ballistic protection and operate reliably.

In addition, troops who have served in Iraq are testing the vehicles under conditions designed to replicate the combat theater, he said.

As production capabilities increase, Morrell said, it’s “imperative to take full advantage of that new-found capacity.”

Troops in Iraq deserve nothing less than the very best armored vehicles possible, the officials said.

“Our troops battling improvised explosive devices deserve the very best protection available,” Morrell said. “And right now, that is an armored vehicle with a raised chassis and a V-shaped undercarriage, features that make MRAPs better able to deflect blasts on roadside and deeply buried bombs.”



Click here for full transcript of July 18 Pentagon news briefing on the MRAP program with John Young, MRAP Task Force Chairman and others from the Pentagon (HTML format)

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Defense Department Seeks MRAP Improvements While Accelerating Program

(Source: US Department of Defense; issued July 19, 2007)

WASHINGTON --- Even as the Defense Department hurries to get as many Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles as possible to Iraq, it’s busy working to improve on the heavily armored vehicles to make them more survivable and easier to maintain.

The department is on the fast track to get the V-hulled vehicles that provide increased protection against underbelly blasts as quickly as they roll off the assembly line. Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates asked Congress for approval to transfer an additional $1.2 billion to the MRAP program. If approved, the department will be able to increase its total MRAP order to 6,415 vehicles. An estimated 3,500 vehicles are expected to be delivered to Iraq by Dec. 31.

“We are always looking for improvement,” said Marine Brig. Gen. Michael Brogan, commander of Marine Corps Systems Command, who serves on the Defense Department’s MRAP task force. “We want to get better. We want to go faster.”

That eye for improvement extends to the vehicles themselves. Even as the assembly lines run at full throttle, the Defense Department is seeking ways to improve on the current MRAPs, senior defense officials explained during a Pentagon news conference yesterday, testimony on Capitol Hill today and in an interview with American Forces Press Service and the Pentagon Channel.

Testers at Aberdeen Proving Ground, Md., have been working around the clock since January to evaluate prototype vehicles to ensure they provide needed protection and are able to stand up to combat conditions, said Army Lt. Gen. Stephen Speakes, the Army’s deputy chief for programs and resources and a member of the Defense Department’s MRAP task force.

“It will do us no good to put a piece of equipment over in the combat zone that doesn’t have the kinds of capabilities we need,” he said.

As they evaluate the vehicles, the Aberdeen Test Center staff is looking at ways to improve them, passing recommendations from military testers directly to the vendors, Brogan said.

Soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines who have served in the combat theater get behind the wheel and subject the MRAPs to the same kinds of conditions they faced there. Their feedback gets passed to vendors, and some of their recommendations already are being incorporated into the vehicles, he said.

The goal, Brogan said, is to “ensure that what we deliver to the troops is exactly what they need to accomplish their mission.”

Troop testing is just one part of a three-part testing regime that’s ensuring MRAPs being fielded meet critical standards.

“Exploitation testing” ensures they have the ballistic protection required to stand up to improvised explosive devices and other ballistics, Brogran said. Automotive testing ensures they’re reliable in conditions they’re likely to encounter in Iraq.

Just as the constantly changing battlefield requires troops to constantly adapt their tactics, techniques and procedures, Speakes said, their equipment needs to adapt, too.

“Right now we know one thing: Soldiers and Marines need improved protection, and MRAP is the immediate solution,” he said. “And we’re all part of a team that’s committed to providing the very best as fast as we can.”

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‘Herculean Work’ Drives MRAP Production, Procurement, Officials Say

(Source: US Department of Defense; issued July 20, 2007)

WASHINGTON--- The Defense Department is marshalling all resources possible to speed up the delivery of Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles to deployed troops as quickly as possible, defense officials told Congress yesterday.

Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates established the MRAP task force to push his highest-priority program and is overseeing its work closely, John Young, task force chairman, told a joint hearing of the House Armed Services Committee’s Seapower and Expeditionary and Air and Land Forces subcommittees.

Gates asked Congress earlier this week for approval to shift an additional $1.2 billion from other defense programs to the MRAP effort. This would bring the department’s MRAP budget for 2007 to $5.4 billion and enable it to increase its total MRAP order to 6,415 vehicles. An estimated 3,500 vehicles are expected to be in Iraq by Dec. 31.

“The reprogramming is urgent,” Young told the House members yesterday. “Thirty to 45 vehicles are estimated per day to slip into 2008 if we delay.”

Young described the “Herculean work” under way to support that effort. The Defense Department is compressing the normal contracting process. Testers at the Aberdeen Test Center at Aberdeen, Md., are working 24/7 to test potential vehicles.

The Defense Department is helping industry aggressively ramp up production capacity. The Defense Logistics Agency is buying enough tires and steel to avoid shortages that could delay the program, he said.

As MRAPs roll off the assembly line, a Naval Warfare System Center team in Charleston, S.C., is quickly installing the government-furnished equipment such as radios, sensors and jammers.

Then U.S. Transportation Command is flying the vehicles to Iraq, reducing the time ship delivery would take.

“This is not a business-as-usual process,” Young said. “I have seen tremendous coordination, collaboration and cooperation all in an effort to achieve the goal this team shares with Secretary Gates -- urgent delivery of the maximum number of MRAPs to put this capability in the hands of our forces.”

Even with these measures taken, Young said he recognizes MRAP contractors will face challenges in keeping up with demand.

“We may encounter manufacturing, spare parts and maintenance issues as we accelerate, but Secretary Gates and the entire Defense Department leadership team agree we should accept these risks in order to provide more capable vehicles to our troops as absolutely fast as possible,” he said.

Despite the new capabilities the MRAPs will offer, Young emphasized that the vehicles are “not a panacea.”

“The threat will adapt and adjust, and the Army and Marine Corps team will work to anticipate these steps and develop responses,” Young said.

Marine Brig. Gen. Michael Brogan, commander of Marine Corps Systems Command and MRAP program executive officer, said the Defense Department is looking toward additional capabilities that could be needed down the road.

“We recognize there are additional threats that have to be dealt with and we have a spiral effort working to incorporate those improved survivability features either into these vehicles or into a subsequent vehicle,” Brogan said.

But while keeping an eye to the future, the Defense Department is forging ahead to field the current MRAP models now. Army Lt. Gen. Stephen Speakes, the Army’s deputy chief of staff for programs and requirements, called the MRAPs being fielded “just one more stage in a continuing evolution of capabilities we must provide to soldiers in harm's way.”

Speakes praised efforts under way to “provide the capability to soldiers now, not to think about it, not to pontificate about it, but to deliver.”

“Our goal right now is to field the MRAP as we know it today as rapidly possible,” agreed Brogan. “The Marine Corps and our teammates are committed to delivering them the maximum number of survivable vehicles that have test-proven performance in the shortest time possible.”

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