Just wondering what you all think of the Commandant's plan to do away with a "3 star" Vice Commandant, Chief of Staff, Atlantic & Pacific area commanders, then making the Vice Commandant another "4 star" billet with a "3" star deputy commandant.

Of course congress must approve all of this.... Seems to me the military pyramid is taking on a new shape.

All this is being done to make the "reporting process as simple and efficient as possible".. I didn't know the "flags" had such poor communication problems...

I wonder what some of todays 0-6's really think of this... It looks to me that they (the CG) would be loosing 3 - "3 star" billets, and I think we all know that won't happen.

Personally, this doesn't make much sense in my book... Thoughts?

Wray...

P.S. The Commandant made note that "The Coast Guard is good at starting things, but not always so good at finishing them" -- I can't help but wonder if this plan will be added to that list.

PPS -- The article (my quotes) was in the 1 Sept 2008 issue of the Navy Times.

A little background... The Commandant was recently summoned to "The Tank" at the Pentagon for a meeting. The Commandant was out of town, so the Vice. Upon reporting in, she was refused entry into the Tank because she was not a four star. It took Pete Pace to happen to see her and inquire what she was doing outside. After he took "corrective action", the plan was put afoot to make the job a four star.

I'm sure there's more, but that is one reason... Makes them all equals in the room.

I think as we find ourselves playing more and more on the national/international scene with DOD, we will find this sort of alignment become more the norm.

Now wouldn't you think, since there has never been 2 "4 star" admirals in the CG this would have been covered before the year 2008?

Are those in DC really that uninformed?

Of course it also shows a severe lack of planning on the Coast Guard's part....

Simply amazing.

Wray...

Wray, trying not to be too critical here, but your response sounds an awful lot like "But we've never done it that way." And, "We've always done that way." Am I reading you correctly? I know you hear politicians say that 9/11 changed everything; for us, it really did. It's not just a political line...

I'm saying that is a major change just to get someone in "The Tank", of equal rank.... (couldn't resist that)

I'm saying the whole thing doesn't make sense to me.. of course I remember when they made Atlantic & Pacific area's 3 stars... that makes sense to me... the Vice Commandant being a 3 star does as well. You don't have your OIC & XPO the same pay grade... or your CO & XO... (back to that silly old pyramid thing)

Making change when needed is necessary, and the right thing to do... but change, just for the sake of making change, is a waste of time and money.

You still haven't convinced me of the need need for 2 "4 stars" and the removal of 3 - "3" stars..

Wray..

I would never presume to be intelligent enough to convince you of anything! I'll leave that to other people far smarter than myself... I'm just passing along a couple of reasons. If they don't fit the bill for you, well, that's okay. Doesn't have to. Up to you... but I'd say when the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff gets involved just to get someone in a meeting, then something needs to be done. What happens next time when there is a 9/11 style event and the CG has a lot to bring to the table. Only this time things are a lot crazier and Pete Pace doesn't exactly have time to play hall monitor? CG is left on the side lines while the other four proceed with out the CG... And that's just one brief example that my little pea-brain can come up with... I'm sure there's a lot more than that.

CNO 4 stars --- Vice CNO 4 stars
Army COS 4 stars --- Army Vice COS 4 stars
Air Force COS 4 stars --- AF Vice COS 4 stars
Commandant Marine Corps 4 stars --- VCMC 4 Stars

USCG Commandant 4 stars --- USCG VComdt 3 stars

Somethings doesn't add up!!!!

If anyone deserves that 4th Star it's the Vice Commandant! Puts her/him on equal footing with her/his peers.

Chief of Staff will still be 3 right?
Asst Comdt of Ops will be 3 right?
Asst Comdt of Logistics will be 3 right?

I only see a loss of 1 3 star, and a gain of 1 4 star!!!!

just my .02

Wray,
The move will not decrease the number of three stars. We will have the same number of 3 Stars and a second 4 Star. Makes sense, not only is our number of personnel growing, our prominence is growing also. Look for an increase in 8's and 9's also.

Semper, I believe you're correct. The forcecom and Ops (currently lant and pac area, respectively) are still going to be 3 stars, just called a differnt name, with a different purpose. I see adding the second '4 star' as beneficial. Not necessarily to get the Vice into the meeting room, but to align the CG with our DOD counterparts. Stop me if I'm wrong, but isn't one of the COMDT CIAO's to be more interoperable with all of our partners? Doesn't that mean personnel as well?

Wray, the plan to give the Vice a 4th star has been in the works for 2 yrs now (since at least OCT 2006); like everything else in DC it takes time to come to fruition.

See... I told you that there were people smarter than me!

Well, according to the article, it says, and I quote:

quote:

"The idea is to revamp the command structure, doing away with a 3 star vice commandant, chief of staff, and Atlantic & Pacific area commanders, and creating a new four star vice commandant and 3 star deputy commandant."

Sorry, but "doing away with" sounds like deleting.. I find that hard to believe as well... Flags NEVER want to give up a billet..

Surface Force -- I'm sure it has... just showing up in the latest Navy Times.

Wray...

quote:

Originally posted by semperparatus81:
CNO 4 stars --- Vice CNO 4 stars
Army COS 4 stars --- Army Vice COS 4 stars
Air Force COS 4 stars --- AF Vice COS 4 stars
Commandant Marine Corps 4 stars --- VCMC 4 Stars

USCG Commandant 4 stars --- USCG VComdt 3 stars

Somethings doesn't add up!!!!

If anyone deserves that 4th Star it's the Vice Commandant! Puts her/him on equal footing with her/his peers.

Chief of Staff will still be 3 right?
Asst Comdt of Ops will be 3 right?
Asst Comdt of Logistics will be 3 right?

I only see a loss of 1 3 star, and a gain of 1 4 star!!!!

just my .02

I got a better plan.

CNO 4 stars --- Vice CNO 43 stars
Army COS 4 stars --- Army Vice COS 43 stars
Air Force COS 4 stars --- AF Vice COS 43 stars
Commandant Marine Corps 4 stars --- VCMC 4 3 Stars

USCG Commandant 4 stars --- USCG VComdt 3 stars

Everybody is equal and we, the country saves a butt load of Active Duty and Retired pay!

I doubt any of the below will agree with you....

Vice Chief of Staff of the U.S. Army (VCSA) GEN Peter W. Chiarelli

Vice Chief of Naval Operations (VCNO) ADM Patrick M. Walsh

Vice Chief of Staff of the U.S. Air Force (VCSAF) Gen Duncan J. McNabb

Assistant Commandant of the Marine Corps (ACMC) Gen James F. Amos

.....the USCG Vice Commandant should be the same!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: semperparatus81,

I would suggest maybe one additional, internal reason for a 4 star VC is to resolve the day-to-day differences (disputes if you will) at the various 3 star levels. This frees up the Comdt from dealing with this type of traffic. The 4 star VC would settle all disputes at 3 star and below.

$16,000 a month as a 4 star to settle disputes between $14,500 a month 3 stars.

I know that's smart*** but i couldn't resist.

I still think the VC should be a full Admiral

That's still less then $200K a year in salary. Not a whole lot of money when you begin to compare job descriptions to the civilian counterparts...

Wray;
Yes, the article is incorrect. In actuality, we are
1) Doing away with the CCS job (a 3 star position)
2) Upgrading TWO two-star jobs at HQ to 3 star jobs. One will be the "OPS" 3 star, the other one the "Support" 3 star. The rest of the ADMs at HQ report to one of them.
3) CHANGING the LANT and PAC 3 star jobs to a CG wide operational Commader 3 star and a CG wide Mission support 3 star. They are hands-on, 'today' and short term folks while the HQ one are long distance (future) type.
4) Upgrading the Vice to a 4 star position. In large part as has been stated above, this is to ensure equity at the table here in DC. This goes all the way to congress even. A 3-star in front of congress, regardless of job title, gets looked down upon. A small part is the supervisory factor over the 4 three stars.

In the end, if all is approved, the CG will still have FOUR VADMs and will have an addition ADMs (two instead of one).

SP81;
There is a grand total of ZERO dollars pay difference for a 3-star and a 4-star flag officer on AD. A Servcie Chief or combatant commander gets a little bump from any other 3 or 4 star, but otherwise not a single penny difference while on AD. Now, the retirement pay will be increased a fair amount, but not the AD pay. Look at a 'real' paychart and you will see a little asterisk up at the top levels that states base pay is limited to X dollars. That amount is actually BELOW 3 star 'pay-chart' pay.

quote:

Wray;
Yes, the article is incorrect.

Well, that is what the Commandant told the reporter.. and that is what the reporter wrote..

I would THINK, if it was incorrect he should demand a correction.. IF he wants people to know the 'real way' things are going to be.

Wray..

We should keep things circa 1995.