I recently departed from Active to the Reserves, and am planning on going Merchant.
Anyone familiar with the SIU (Seafarers International Union)?
They tell me (verbally) that I will start school in Piney Point in January, but haven't given me any written confirmation, and I'm having a really hard time finding anyone who's been in it.

For the record, I plan to transition to MEBA eventually (which I also know very little about).

Any advice/experiences/criticism about either of these unions, or the Merchant Marine in general, would be GREATLY appreciated.

v/r,
QM2 T

I take it, prior rating was QM. If I may ask, what exactly do you want to do. With at least one year of CG deck/pilothouse time, you may already have the time for Able Seaman( Special), if it is unlicensed you want. At the least a limited tonnage Master/Mate workboat license.

Piney Point is fine if you're new to going to sea, or the union is picking up the tab. A good solid CG deck/bridge backround should get you started with a bit less hassle.

This CG site has a dropdown menu on the left and has some great info as to how to get your Merchant Mariners Document ( Z Card) and some of the licenses that are available.
http://www.uscg.mil/STCW/

In a nut shell, and check your Marine Safety Manual (vol 3) for in house info,
You get 60% of your sea duty counted towards a deck officer license.

Your sea time as a petty officer in a deck rating counts as Able Seaman time.

If you have underway OOD/DWO quals, your sea time while qual'd counts as MATE time, and some sort of sleazy deal lets you count it as two days. Missing from the civilian side.

With the small ships in the CG your tonnage is going to be a problem. Basically unless it is a 378 or WAGB CG cutters are under 1600 tons and that knocks out unlimited tonnage. The 200 ton & under Master & Mate, near coastal, licenses are about where you're going, unless you take a shitz load of STCW courses for something called an Officer in Charge of a Nav Watch. Licenses above 200 Gross Registered tons are damned near impossible to get, coming up through the hawsepipe, due to your regulatory folks creating an impossible labyrinth of rules to get a Mates ticket.

Check into 46 CFR Parts 10 & 12 for the regulations concerning licenses and unlicensed documents.

Drop a note if you'd like thru military.com
I sent myself a test letter thru military.com e-mail. seems like it works.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mastersmate,

I don't mean to dampen any fires but look at this real careful before you make the decision. The merchant service is not what it used to be. As a property manager in Manhattan, over the years, I have hired numerous ex-merchant mariners graduates of both Kings Point and SUNY Maritime.

Most of the guys have some sea time but a few have no sea time, they went straight to my field. Our engine rooms in a large commercial building are quite similar to a ships engineroom. We have a couple of 2800 ton steam turbines that turn compressors instead of propellors and we don't rock, otherwise not much of a difference.

The guys tell me that there is an over abundance of merchies to the point where one Third Assistant Engineer told me that they are only allowed to serve 6 months on some boats then they have to leave to make room for someone else, giving all licensed engineers a turn in the engineroom. Personally, that doesn't sound like the kind of life I'd want to lead and the fact that I hire a bunch of these guys on a regular basis is indicative that they're not crazy about it either. They do find homes with me because I favor nautical types when I hire. They're already familiar with the "gargantuan" machine room kind of environment. Just food for thought.

Bill

MM;
I was a bit surprised that you didn't go further with the tonnage issue. As military folks - our standard usage is displacment tonnage. Every other mariner talks in gross or net. Licenses are gross (right?) HUGE DIFFERENCE, especially with military vessels. I am sure you could explain it better, but I will give it a shot:

Displacement: accounts for every bit of the boat - how much water it displaces.

Gross: In reality - interior space of the vessel, not including crew qrts and a few other types of spaces. ~ 1 ton per 100 cubic feet of space.

Net: Cargo holding spaces only.

Good stuff to understand when trying to understand how your CG time equates to MM time.

Second note - don't forget WLBs in the displacement tonnage race. One WLB equals a 270 with a couple of 87s on her flight deck!

Bill. It' probably not an overabundance of merchies as much as it is an under abundance of U. S. flagged merchant vessels. I hope we never get into a situation where we have to depend on foreign flagged fleets to move our esential goods and materials.

Most of the ships that come into LA harbor are flagged 'china, korea, mexico. We have no merchant marine now. My husband put the engines in 3 ships owned by George Bush Senior. He immediatly flagged them China. Lower wage costs. I don't see the men standing at the rails as they come into port anymore. ships are being run with a very small crew.

MastersMate,
Affirmative, QM I was.
I have a bit over three years on a 270', which I've HEARD is over 1600 Gross. However, I'm having a hell of a time finding Gross Tonnage on CG vessels. I'm trying to track down Gross for the BUSL also.
The issue at hand, is that my sea time ended just over 3 years ago, and you need 90 days within the last 3 years within the tonnage applied for.
So my plan for now, is to join the SIU unlicensed (I hold a OS Z-Card), have them put me through the STCW requirements, and get u/w with them unlicensed to get my 90 days recency (they send you out for 4 months immediately following STCW fullfillment in Piney).
When I meet the requirements, I will then apply for a Mates, and hopefully transition to an Officers Union (MEBA?).
One concern of mine is that I know alot of trade unions have service obligations after they train you. The SIU claims they don't, over the phone, but I hate to wait until I get there to know for sure.

Anyone who can point out any discrepencies in my rickety last minute plan... PLEASE DO!

Thank you MastersMate and everyone else for your responses!!

quote:

I hope we never get into a situation where we have to depend on foreign flagged fleets to move our esential goods and materials.

Brianconway,
We're already there, and have been for some time now.

Wheels - I believe the formula used to 'guess' a military vessels rough gross tonnage equivelant is .57 times the displacment tonnage. .57 * ~1800 is about 1000 Gross tons. Some contradictions in the relevant manual as they do say that a 270 is over 1600, but then they describe the math and it doesn't compute. Since military vessel are designed to hold engines and people, and not much more, it is a poor comparison. We had to get those numbers from our documents on the 225 when we went to Europe. I don't remember the exact numbers, but Disp was about 2000 and ACTUAL Gross was well below 1000. Considering a 225 is built with a lot more 'cargo' area than a white hull, I would bet the real gross tonnage of a 270 very low.

A BUSL will be pretty low.

This one blossomed over night, give it a couple of shots,

Mighty - somewhere hidden in the marine safety manual is the formula that is supposed to be used to equate displacement to gross tonnage. It is, I believe, displacement tonnage X .57 to get an approximate that you use. The problem I find with the 270s is that from the sources I've found so far, their displacement tonnage is about 2200 +/- and that comes out around a 1300 gross tons vessel. I think they've missed the Haley and those new big tenders.

It is kind of my pet peeve, because while gathering recency time on a 2800 ton vessel for my unlimited chief mate upgrade, the CG evaluators disallowed it because it was under the internalional scheme, not the US scheme. Almost a year seatime in the North Sea shot in the azz.

QM2T - for the BUSL, basically the length x beam x depth of hull x .56 then divided by 100, of hull gives you gross tonnage for small single hull boats.

1. Military duty in a deck rating (QM,BM, old RD ) equates as sea time as an Able Seaman. Get yourself to an REC, submit an application to upgrade OS to AB. have your transcript of sea duty ready to submit. You may find local mariner training schools that can give you the STCW Basic Safety Training, Able Seaman, Lifeboatman/Proficiency in Survival Craft, classes in lieu of testing at the REC. Also chec with the VA, have had some come thru that had it picked up as vocational training.

Get your AB upgrade, if it is workboat type sailing you want, check out any of the Gulf of Mexico supply boat companies. There is a great shortage of mariners down there from what I hear. With your STCW, AB/Lifeboatman, you're sailing in about 5 days.

From that time, get your 90 days recency on vessels under 1600 tons, apply for your Master 100 tons and Mate 200 tons (near coastal) and you are on your way ti the piloyhouse.

If it is deepsea time you are looking for, right now Military Sealift Command is a hot prospect. LOTS of seatime. BUT, they have a AB to MATE program where they pick up the tab for getting your 3rd Mates ticket.

A bit long winded for the first cup of coffee. Hope it is of help

Neither pro nor con as far as union seamen go, but right now there is plenty of work out there if you have the document, not having to wait finding a berth out of the hall.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mastersmate,

MM: Displacment tonnage as follows

420: 16,400
399: 13,400
378: 3,300
225: 2,000
270: 1,820
210: 1,110/1020
87: 100 (So TWO of them on the flight deck of a 270 makes the three of them equal to a 225 WLB)

Mighty - thanx for the tonnages, that goes in my save file.

For Coastguardsmen thinking of going to work on the water after discharge, this can be an important topic. One of the more misunderstood processes to go thru.

There was a discussion over on the BM board a while ago about giving licenses to CG folks. Don't buy it or agree with it. BUT most heartily endorse going thru the system, following the steps and putting that sea time to good use.

It is good practical seaman knowledge, and any deck rating should have no problems with the exams. I am really surprised that more MKs don't make use of their EWO time for an engineers license $$$$$$$$$.

The toughest part is trying to navigate the obstacles that the RECs/NMC have placed in the way. It seems like even THEY don't know what the hell is going on. You can get three different answers fron 3 different RECs.

The key is to use the CG website for the check lists, dig thru the policy letters & MSM. Be ready with the information, before you walk into the REC. Be ready to challenge and appeal up the line if necessary. it is your new career and $$ at stake.

I second the Military Sealift Commmand approach. You will get plenty of sea time on deep draft vessels and will be able to work your way towards your license.

I'll give a quick overview of merchant marine unions.

Unlicensed
SIU - Largest, not the best paying, but plenty of jobs. I sailed on 3 ships that had SIU crews. If you don't go MSC, I would go SIU.

SUP - At one time the pride of the Merchant Marine, however, they now have very few ships left on their contract. Mostly Matson and APL vessels sailing out of the west coast. Higher pay and better working conditions than SIU, but they may have overpriced themselves out of a job.

Officers
Master Mates and Pilots (MMP) - The "original" deck officers union. Large union but fewer and fewer ships. Many of my classmates (KP) have had hard times finding jobs.

Marine Engineers Benevolent Association (MEBA) - The original engineering officers union. Strong union with good pay and benifits. They now have deck officer positions available as well. If I were still in the Merchant Marine and not sailing for MSC, I'd be with MEBA.

American Maritime Officers (AMO) - Newer union with deck and engine positions (you may hear it called MEBA Discrict II for engine positions). This union may have jobs, but its pay and working conditions are not as high as MMP or MEBA.

MM;
The problem I have with giving credit for some of our stuff is not really actual papers, but some of the other recognition of our training. As a former QMCS, with four OOD letters and two designation as Navigator, I guarantee I could teach the class that certifies the TEACHERS of classes needed for RADAR observer, yet the CG won't recognize that. Further, the CG could ORDER me to board an unfamiliar vessel to fight a fire on that vessel as a Coastie, yet my fire fighting training is not good enough to be a crewman on that vessel. Those things kind of stick in my craw. I used to have a little ambition to get my papers, but between growing up and those silly hurdles, I just don't anymore. Our biggest weakness from what I have seen is that our OODs are not really Officer of the "DECK," they are just conning officers and shiphandlers and most have VERY little understanding of the "DECK" duties that a merchie needs.

Mighty,

This one could go on for quite a bit, and by the way, I agree with you.

The problem comes with the adoption of the STCW 95. My personal belief is that no-one really understood what the hell we were buying into. The Basic Safety Training for NEW mariners sounded good, but I really don't think anyone looked at page 2.

For years we'd been told that the U.S. had the safest, best trained merchant marine in the world. The CG was mighty proud of that claim. With the adoption of STCW 95, we all became the village idiots, weren't competant to do our jobs and all had to be safely assimilated into the new line of thought and training.

The powers have altered the progression on the US licensing scheme to fit the rest of the world. The U.S. limited tonnage licenses for example, are issued for Inland, Near Coastal, and Ocean waters. The near coastal is , by the STCW, for the near coastal waters of the country of issus and other countries that accept their near coastal papers. Oceans is for waorl wide sailing. The CG has, without changing the CFR changed the time requirements for a near coastal to the STCW time vs the US regulations time. Read somewhere that it is because international treaties trump US regulations.

In a nut shell, the US should have just limited its Near Coastal licenses to Domestic trade/local countries, and made the Oceans license the document of choice for world wide service. But I'm on a rant, and better heave around to short stay.

Surprisingly, the U.S.N. Center for Surface Operations, penned an agreement with the CG a few years ago, and USN recruit training meets the requirements of STCW basic safety training, except for the survival suit training. Their PQS for helm/lookout meets the requirement for an STCW " Rating Forming Part of a Nav Watch.

A QMCM with 20 years sea duty in the CG doesn't meet the requirement to stand a lookout watch, without 6 months break ins.

The U.S. system is in a mess, and needs a practical serious looking into. The folks are just not joining this industry due to the obstacles in the way.

Back to QM2T,

1. Find a local mariner training school, do an " in lieu" course for Able Seaman and Lifeboatman/Proficiency in Survival Craft.

2. Do your STCW Basic Safety Training, again a local school.

3. Apply at the REC to upgrade from OS to AB. On the same application apply for the level of Deck license you are seeking. You are spending the $$$ might as well get an answer to see what you need to do.

4. Once you have your AB, MSC will be your quickest route for deep sea time. Check out the Gulf of Mexico Oil Patch for the under 1600 gross tons work boats.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mastersmate,

Master Chief,

I feel your pain regarding the CG not accepting your CG experience for merchant licensing.

I'd like to point out though that it goes both ways. I have an unlimited tonnage license and have conned vessels in excess of 1000' in lenght. However, CG qualifications for boat crew, coxswain, QMOW and underway OOD take absolutely no credit for that license.

QM2 T:

My advice is to get the biggest rating/license you can qualify for. The National Maritime Center link (in Homeport I think...or google it) has lots of good info.

Don't discount the Gulf of Mexico and the oilfield service companies. There is a huge surge in new building down here. The vessels are getting larger and more technically advanced all the time. Many are unlimited tonnage and full SOLAS. While the traditional deep draft US flag is stagnant/dying, it's booming down here and pay is way up. Many of the companies have overseas operations as well so there is plenty of opportunity. Try Edison Chouest Offshore, Tidewater, Seacor, Hornbeck Offshore Services, Rigdon Marine..and there are plenty others.

Also, IMHO, getting on with a good non-union company is the way to go. Yeah, the wages won't be as much but unions are a factor in what keeps the US flag non-competitive. There was a need for them once but not so much now. The good companies offer generous time off and tremendous training opportunities. The advice about MSC is dead on too. Some ships pay real well and you can get just about as much sea time as you can handle.

Bottom line is that the US flag has many different demographics and some segments of the fleet are doing better than others. Good luck!

I've sailed both SIU and MSC. Dealing with the RECs can be downright unbelievable. I can remember looking at those (mostly civilian) people behind the counters (after taking a number and waiting my turn) with my mouth hanging open in complete shock, thinking, "Who the f*** ARE these people, and how did they ever, ever, get and keep a job with MY Coast Guard?"

After getting past the REC clowns and finding yourself getting underway, you need to be very careful about one thing: SAFETY. There are a lot of people sailing in the merchant fleet (I can't bear to call them sailors) who haven't a clue, or just don't care, about what they are doing or how to do it properly. Be especially careful anytime you are working on deck with lines, hoses, anchor cables, small boats, going aloft, etc. As you already must know, there are lots of ways to be hurt or killed at sea. With the merchant fleet employees we presently have, the risks have exponentially grown.

Let me put it like this: If you have ever ridden a motorcyle at high speed, or bicycled in Manhattan, Paris, Tokyo, or London for instance. You need to bring that same level of situational awareness to working on a merchant ship.

An example: I'm on the wheel. The third mate (A failed Panama Canal pilot, a guy who thinks the income tax is illegal and refuses to pay it. A guy who lives in Costa Rica.) is driving. We are pulling into Tokyo Bay at night in a gigantic Honda car carrier, with dozens and dozens of Japanese coasters all over the place. One of them is on our starboard bow, closing and crossing, on an obvious (looking at the radar) collision course. The mate (never having encountered the word "kamikaze") decides to play chicken with this guy. It was not until the coaster was disappearing under our bow that he had me put the wheel hard to port, whereupon we did a complete 360 and somehow managed to miss sinking the coaster. As a lowly AB (and no longer the senior deck watch officer I had been) all I could do was stand there and wait. The 360 brought the captain onto the bridge in his pajamas, just like all those accident reports they used to publish on the back of the pilot charts.

If you think you miss the Coast Guard now, just wait until you are at sea with the merchant marine. Sorry to carry on like this, but yesterday was my 75th birthday and I think somebody put something weird in my birthday cake.

Rock on.

Ruexp is correct. You expect professionalism from licensed “professional” mariners. Don’t count on it! It was always my practice to spend extra time on the bridge with a new deck officer until I was personally comfortable with his abilities regardless of his pedigree. I had signed on this unlimited Chief Mate to fill an empty second mates berth. If I remember correctly he was planning on getting married and desired a job where he would spend less time at sea. He came with an impressive resume. One night, well offshore, with a ship closing our starboard bow with a constant bearing, I questioned his intentions. He informed me that he intended to stand on as we, having a tow had the right of way! They are out there folks.

QM2 T,
Back in the last centry (Whoa!) after 4 years active as an EM, left the CG in 1980 and basically had the same desire as you. Hit the NY/NJ companies, Sealand ect but would not even interview with out union affiliation. Happened to visit the Military Sealift Command, then in Bayonne NJ, and wanted to get in on the ground floor in the engineering dept as a wiper.
Fourtunaly the engineerining crewing desk pointed me to get my electricians endorsement. After dealing with the CG again, another long story, I got my Electricians endorsement and sailed with MSC for 3 years.

Did a year on the Vandenberg T-AGM 10, a Special ops (spy) ship and was involved with the first two Shuttle launches. Spent 3 weeks in Recife, Brazil, now there is a sailors port of call!

Eight months on the Marshfeild T-AK 282 transporting poseidon sub launched delivery systems on a milk run tween Holylock Scotland and Kings Bay Georgia.

Another year on the Truckee T-AO, an unrep oiler with the seventh fleet in the Med. Pulled in all kinds of great ports and actually spent Christmas of 82 in Isreal and visited the Holy city on Christmas day.

SOOO, I'm basically saying, and I hope your single, MSC was a great way to start a Merchant career and with the above mentioned safety concerns, MSC has a tight screening process. Of course some slip thru but with your CG experiance, you'll be aware of the dangers and slackers.

Good Luck! Tight lines!