I figured I'd put this here instead of the recruiter's desk forum.

So my brother (he's in the CG too) and I were talking about how Coast Guard boot camp lacks a final capstone event like the the Air Force's Airmen Run/Warrior Week, the Marines' Crucible, the Navy's Battle Stations, and whatever final field exercise the Army puts its recruits through. We both came to the conclusion that Coast Guard boot camp could use an exercise like that. One thing we thought was some sort of simulated SAR alarm/rescue scenario in the middle of the night at the end of week 7. At the conclusion of the event the recruits could put on the non-rate pins on their covers and raise their company colors on the flag pole.

Anyways I was curious if anyone else had an opinion on this.

I think it is a great idea, but it cost too much money and a recruit might twist their ankle or we might offend a recruit who can't pass. it etc. etc. etc.

I wrote an article for PROCEEDINGS a while back advocating that we train new grads of boot camp as BTMs (i.e. they must qualify as BTM before they graduate). Same would be true for Academy/OCS officer grads- must qualify as a Boarding Officer in order to graduate.

The capstone experience, in my opinion, would be a combination SAR/LE operation at each accession point.

Good idea-- it's been done at all of the other services' boot camps and it's been shown to build esprit de corps and put all that training to the test.

Perhaps a good capstone experience for Coast Guard bootcamp would be participation in a TQM quality action team. Unless things have changed, the sooner that these kids learn the business management model over the military leadership model for the Coast Guard, the better.

(That is, unless things have reverted back to the military leadership model.)

USMC Crucible:

The crucible includes over 70 miles of forced marching. Approximately 550 recruits move in 12-20 person squads through eight major events: a day movement resupply, casualty evacuation, combat assault course, reaction course, enhanced confidence course, night infiltration course, and a night march. Approximately 30 team-building obstacles called “Warrior Stations” and additional reaction course problems teach recruits teamwork and adaptiveness. Drill Instructors accompany squads as safety personnel only.

My son went through the Crucible last year. No one can make it through unless they perform as a team. Each recruit has to spend some time in the leadership role as well. While they are on the Crucible, they will get maybe 4 hrs of sleep per night out in the woods. That's a big part of the training, getting them to make the right decisions while being exhausted.

The Crucible lasts for 54 hrs. When they return, they are treated to an all-you-can-eat "Warrior Breakfast. After, they hit the showers and have classes in the afternoon rather than hitting the racks. After they have been through the Crucible, things get a bit easier on them for the rest of the time they are there but they are still not Marines until they receive their Eagle, Globe & Anchor on the day prior to Graduation.

Don

hmm I rememebr when I went through we did some GQ stuff with our CC, and some "fancy" marching (I can't proper name of the marching.) But there was only 1 other CC that was doing it with their company. Other then that...nothing fancy.

My Lead CC that taught the marching was a prior-Marine SK1 that went over to Bahrain last year by the way BMWCC...i won't post his name, but We were the sister company to T-171 (I was S-171), where you got your "Smokie cover".

quote:

One thing we thought was some sort of simulated SAR alarm/rescue scenario in the middle of the night at the end of week 7. At the conclusion of the event the recruits could put on the non-rate pins on their covers and raise their company colors on the flag pole.

that was called midnight football when i went though......except the alarm was a trash can down the length of the squad bay, and the rescue was throwing and chasing your packed seabag up and down the parade field......we got an all you can eat breakfast in the morning too....as long as you could eat it in 10 min or less.....

They do have a "CAPSTONE" Event; some recruit leave then reporting to their first duty station to be trained in their assigned duties!

:A rgue:

When I went through boot camp the USCG Training Center at Cape May, N.J. was run by Captain A. B. How (Commanding Officer) and Commander R. E. Dash (Training Officer).

I don’t believe they still have this but we had driving school. However, this was not the driver’s education that I had at my high school.

During this driving school instructors taught us how to drive the cars real hard and sometimes past the point of losing control. At the end of a typical day several cars would have blown tires.

Things I learned during that driving school have helped me all my life. It was a great event for all us guys and a nice break from boot camp. I considered that a very practical capstone event during my time at Cape May. Who knows how many injuries were prevented and lives saved later on by teaching us how to recover after a passenger car goes out of control.

At the end of the driving school we took a driving test and those of us who passed received a Government Drivers License.

Ed

This message has been edited. Last edited by: NYC_Coastie,

I REMEMBER LIKE THEY SAID ABOVE I WAS ALSO IN S-171 AND WE DID A COUPLE OF THINGS LIKE A CAPSTONE

We had white tornados, high ports, mountain climbers and everyones favorite, pushups! Ah the fun I had thirty years ago this month! I almost forgot chasing rabbits down by the beach!

Galley Week was an excellent team building experience. I probably used what I learn in Galley Week more than any other school.

F-104

quote:

Originally posted by chrisogle1:
I wrote an article for PROCEEDINGS a while back advocating that we train new grads of boot camp as BTMs (i.e. they must qualify as BTM before they graduate). Same would be true for Academy/OCS officer grads- must qualify as a Boarding Officer in order to graduate.

....

MR O;
If you still have the electrons, I would be interested in reading that. From the short description, honestly, both ideas seem close to absurdly unattainable and unsupportable. (But - I would be interested in reading to possibly change my mind).
What we are asking for is for E-1s to get qualified as BTMs and college students to be a BO, without any time as an actual BTM. The even basic training time needed for either of these, at the level of experience described, is near non existant. We are not just talking about doing a 1 1/2 mile run. We are talking about full weapons quals, serious knowledge requirements, physical training requirements, UOF training, etc etc etc. Then - they need to proove those mental characteristics required of a BTM/BO exist. How long do we want those accession points training to be?
Where is the data to back up that is what we need a ENS or SA to be able to perform in their routine duty immediately upon reporting to their first unit? What percentage of SAs are actually used as BTM and what percentage of ENSs are actually used as BOs? (I would argue a large percentage of them are only doing it for the training exposure, but surely not for their 'expertise' in the subject mater). I would love to be able to have a motto close to the USMC "Every Marine a Rifleman," but I think our actual operation workforce is just too diverse in their missions and operations to make that realistic.

OK - all of that said - a final culminating event, based on real world needs of operational units, is a great idea!

quote:

Originally posted by Mightyz90_93:

quote:

Originally posted by chrisogle1:
I wrote an article for PROCEEDINGS a while back advocating that we train new grads of boot camp as BTMs (i.e. they must qualify as BTM before they graduate). Same would be true for Academy/OCS officer grads- must qualify as a Boarding Officer in order to graduate.

....

MR O;
If you still have the electrons, I would be interested in reading that. From the short description, honestly, both ideas seem close to absurdly unattainable and unsupportable. (But - I would be interested in reading to possibly change my mind).
What we are asking for is for E-1s to get qualified as BTMs and college students to be a BO, without any time as an actual BTM. The even basic training time needed for either of these, at the level of experience described, is near non existant. We are not just talking about doing a 1 1/2 mile run. We are talking about full weapons quals, serious knowledge requirements, physical training requirements, UOF training, etc etc etc. Then - they need to proove those mental characteristics required of a BTM/BO exist. How long do we want those accession points training to be?
Where is the data to back up that is what we need a ENS or SA to be able to perform in their routine duty immediately upon reporting to their first unit? What percentage of SAs are actually used as BTM and what percentage of ENSs are actually used as BOs? (I would argue a large percentage of them are only doing it for the training exposure, but surely not for their 'expertise' in the subject mater). I would love to be able to have a motto close to the USMC "Every Marine a Rifleman," but I think our actual operation workforce is just too diverse in their missions and operations to make that realistic.

OK - all of that said - a final culminating event, based on real world needs of operational units, is a great idea!

MC,

I'll have to check- I don't know if I have an electronic copy of the article as published. That said, give me a couple of days & I'll get it scanned & emailed your way.

Yes, it would be a training investment. The question is how time is spent at boot camp and the accession points. Unfortunately I've never been able to visit Cape May, but from looking at the overall Boot Camp schedule, it may be possible to add in some classes to provide the needed classroom time. Other things (UOF, ROE, A&J, etc) could be added into the basic indoc knowledge that all recruits need to know.

The PT standards could be re-racked to include the DT and yes the 1.5 mile run.

At the Academy/OCS, Academy grads already are required to take a classroom course in Maritime Law Enforcement (taught by a USCG JAG) that covers all of the A&J/legal topics they have to know. Additionally, there's a gym class (not sure if it's still the case but it was the last time I checked) which all cadets have to take in basic MLE DT. At the end of all of that, cadets don't walk away with any of their MLE PQS signed off. Seems like a waste of effort that could be folded into an actual USCG qual program with relatively little effort.

OCS is more difficult-- they have a much shorter timeframe to do it-- but I think the classroom stuff could be re-racked to meet the A&J requirements and the PT stuff they do could be folded into the MLE PT/DT requirements for BO.

True, the new SA/FA's coming out of boot camp wouldn't have any experience. Neither would the new ENS's coming out of New London- but they would possess the baseline training needed desperately in the field.

My experience at nearly every unit I've ever served at/worked with is that they're always desperate for weapons/LE-qualled people and the rounds to qualify them with on the weapons. My opinion-- we (the USCG as a whole) needs to provide the field (all field-level units) with solutions to those problems by providing them qualified people.

I don't see a problem with making it a requirement that an individual qualify with (at a minimum) the .40 PDW before leaving boot camp. My preference would be to have them qualified with the .40, M-16, and M870.

I understand what you're saying about the diversity of our missions, but all Coasties know that our mission can change 180 degrees in a heartbeat-- we can go from a CD patrol in the caribbean to a large-scale SAR of a dangerously-overloaded Haitian sailboat. Or we can be doing an LE patrol INCONUS, only to find ourselves responding to a large oil or HAZMAT spill. The time to train folks and get them LE qualified is not when the new exigent circumstances show up...we need to be ready ahead of time.

At the risk of sounding too much like the USMC, I do think that every Coastie should be a BO/BTM. The Coast Guard's current focus (as I understand the Commandant's CIAOs) is being able to provide maritime security, MDA, and prevention services. I believe that the nexus about which all of those missions focus is our LE capability.

Starting all of our newest members off (Officer and Enlisted) with a baseline understanding of our authorities, jurisdiction, etc as BTM/BO's would help in other missions. It's a lot easier for a Marine Inspector understand where all the CFRs she's enforcing actually come from, and where her authority for enforcing them comes from. On the support side, it's a lot easier for the admin folks, supply people, and the IT people to support the critical missions we do when they have that understanding of the mission on an individual basis.

I don't advocate messing around with the core of Boot Camp or the Academy or OCS-- training our people in the fundamentals of the CG. I don't think we need to turn the accession points into police academies. I think, however, that BTM/BO training might be a great way to focus our training efforts toward the mission demands the USCG is facing these days.

The capstone training event is a great idea that I hope comes to fruition.

If nothing else, this is a good dialogue.

Something caught me above that is off the subject.

Have you ever considered sponsoring a company? Maybe get with a 'senior' Chief at your unit or that you know and try to sponsor together? I am sure you would enjoy it and all involved would benifit.

quote:

a final culminating event, based on real world needs of operational units, is a great idea!

Yea, two weeks of standown (regardless of what work needs to be done), sports day, training on how to avoid patrol, etc. I think that would be a great idea.

Seriously, a capstone event unfortunately can't occur. We have implemented too many niceties in today's CG that would make anything even somewhat resembling a "crucible" inappropriate. We have turned ourselves into a non profit corporation, vice a military service.

It is because of this that there are mutuals (and this is true, it is on the mutual board here) that request transfer off of a buoy tender to a station because "there is a lot of physical labor". ENS' and SA's that were able to perform their routine duty would be a godsend, but we have to give them HR training, sexual harrassment traing, diversity traing, finacial training and ensure they receive their college degrees so they can move on past the CG and do something else. On my three ships, ALL ENS'/JG's had to get BO qualified as a requirement for their OER and further career enhancement. BTM school is two weeks, BO school is 5 weeks. If we can't fit it in during 8 weeks or 4 years then shame on us. As far as the mental capacity, to be BTM's/BO's, we let them in the CG. That should be enough said right there, but if case it isn't, we let them shoot guns in boot camp. It is still up to the CO of their next unit to allow them to carry.

I strongly feel that until we get back to being a military service where subordinates say, "Aye Aye" and not "Why Why", and we get back to "needs of the service" and not needs of the "I can't get underway/come to work/stand duty because the next door neighbor's daughters cat is sick/stuck in a tree/etc", then we will never be able to pull off a capstone type event. Heck we are probably lucky to still have boot camp. We should probably just hold job interviews, provide HR indoc to those we hire and send them on there way for the leaders to train, do IDP's, and hopefully instill some sort of military bearing, history, and knowledge of CG operations.

quote:

Originally posted by Mightyz90_93:
Something caught me above that is off the subject.

Have you ever considered sponsoring a company? Maybe get with a 'senior' Chief at your unit or that you know and try to sponsor together? I am sure you would enjoy it and all involved would benifit.

MC-- I sure have. When I was aboard the SPENCER I was very interested in doing so-- unfortunately 9/11 changed those plans considerably.

From what I understand, the waiting period to sponsor a company is pretty long, isn't it?

I'll support the Bill Wells Point of View forum here ... boot camp should culminate in a live fire exercise while single-handedly piloting landing craft to the beach, then storming the beach under a hail of fire and mortar rounds ... you should be prepared to lose a limb or two. The whole exercise then concludes in a debrief that basically gripes about the lack of respect for the people who came before them, and chastises the entire aviation community in general.

Then, finally, of course, all brass will be policed, and non-expended ordnance will be inventoried and returned.

I like practical ideas. That is why I posted about driving school above.

Considering that 43,300 people were killed in USA highway crashes during 2006 I believe that the driving school we had back in the 1970s was a good investment. It was expensive because of wear and tear on the cars but it did start young people thinking about safety. Being in a car that is out of control (with a trained instructor onboard) makes you realize that you have to be careful operating equipment. It is a real wakeup call.

This is good training for young women and men who in the future may be operating high speed boats such as the RB-M.

This type of capstone event does build esprit de corps and has real world applications.

Ed

quote:

The whole exercise then concludes in a debrief that basically gripes about the lack of respect for the people who came before them, and chastises the entire aviation community in general.

This entire post is a hoot! I do miss Bill some days.

Adding an extra minute to any training takes almost "an act of Congress." Well at least an Admiral with an agenda. The CG training empire is very tight with money because it has very little to begin with. If programs don't pony up the cash, not much happens.

The team building the Navy does sounds like the right fit for the CG. Even if the lad/lass is off to a shore unit, it is something they may see later and is a common skill; responding to damage at sea.

Adding the ship simulator and the water bill won't be the hold up. Any extra day(s) is "butts in seats" and that is something the CG training empire bean counters hate since the Gilbert Study in the 1980s.

Now it might make Bill happy if we can have some live rounds cooking off too!