Two Thoughts: One Aw$**** wipes out 10 AttaBoys, and Never Assume.

Anyone who's been in for awhile knows that even the Best can make mistakes. We are all human after all. If it's that bad, there are repercussions. These vary, depending on the level of the individual, and the higher one is, the more impact it has on others.

One thing missing from all this, but a part of the process, is "mitigating circumstances." These aren't often published, but are taken into consideration in final disposition of the case. It's not a conspiracy or a coverup, it's at the discretion of the governing body to weigh the impact when deciding the punishment.

The other is Never Assume. As posted, many automatically assume it was a sexual relationship and a she. Another posted who said it was a she? . . .which led someone else to "assume" that person had "Inside Information" and that it WAS a "he," piling assumptions on top of assumptions, and leading others to believe that is the truth. This is how careers get trashed at all levels, and gossip continues to grow.

Those "in the know" aren't going to be posting it here because it's an open investigation, which would bring more repercussions.

We should wait for the official outcome before formulating opinions, and more importantly, Lessons Learned. Even then, remember that this has been hard on the entire Command and Crew, regardless. They need time to regroup and the support of their Brothers and Sisters in Blue to move forward.

quote:

Two Thoughts: One Aw$**** wipes out 10 AttaBoys, and Never Assume.

Anyone who's been in for awhile knows that even the Best can make mistakes. We are all human after all. If it's that bad, there are repercussions. These vary, depending on the level of the individual, and the higher one is, the more impact it has on others.

One thing missing from all this, but a part of the process, is "mitigating circumstances." These aren't often published, but are taken into consideration in final disposition of the case. It's not a conspiracy or a coverup, it's at the discretion of the governing body to weigh the impact when deciding the punishment.

The other is Never Assume. As posted, many automatically assume it was a sexual relationship and a she. Another posted who said it was a she? . . .which led someone else to "assume" that person had "Inside Information" and that it WAS a "he," piling assumptions on top of assumptions, and leading others to believe that is the truth. This is how careers get trashed at all levels, and gossip continues to grow.

Those "in the know" aren't going to be posting it here because it's an open investigation, which would bring more repercussions.

We should wait for the official outcome before formulating opinions, and more importantly, Lessons Learned. Even then, remember that this has been hard on the entire Command and Crew, regardless. They need time to regroup and the support of their Brothers and Sisters in Blue to move forward.

Excellent points and a great post. I couldnt agree more...

T

Faith restored in civility and compassion. Thanks gents.

KC

Lots of Monday Morning Quarterbacks here. But at the end of the day, he has been relieved for cause and I bet you ANYTHING, he will not be back onboard....mitigating circumstances or not. Again, list any case reversed, because I don't know one. We all know very well that when it reaches this level, it's for a reason. Now, is just closing the loop.

We also need to remember that a RFC is not a criminal charge or anything of the sort. It is simply a declaration that the immediate superior no longer possess the great sense of trust and confidence required of a person in command. That sense of trust and confidence is a very, very high bar. It is not something automaticaly given on the basis of rank, expereince or past performance. It is something that is re-earned, every day, by performance and standards at a level far surpassing that expected of a normal person.

Your right MC...Command is a privilege, not a right.

A privilege technically is a right by definition. A common right.

quote:

priv·i·lege
1. a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most: the privileges of the very rich.
2. a special right, immunity, or exemption granted to persons in authority or office to free them from certain obligations or liabilities: the privilege of a senator to speak in Congress without danger of a libel suit.
3. a grant to an individual, corporation, etc., of a special right or immunity, under certain conditions.
4. the principle or condition of enjoying special rights or immunities.
5. any of the rights common to all citizens under a modern constitutional government: We enjoy the privileges of a free people.
6. an advantage or source of pleasure granted to a person: It's my privilege to be here.

The fact remains that for some, certifying for command is a requirement and is expected. Any BM1 and above can relate to that one.

T

Thing is - even if he's found INNOCENT he'll be tainted for the rest of his career.

I knew this female that had a "crush" on one of the 'higher ups'. She'd stop by his office without permission, email him, tell ANYONE that would listen how hot she thought he was and how 'sweet' he was to her...

Lo and behold he gets accused of having inappropriate relationship with her. Some could say it actually WAS an "inappropriate" relationship, since he didn't publicly discourage her advances. Although found false after investigating, his career will never be the same.

The "P" words as we called them . . .often used for "convenience" during the 80'a and 90's to fit the point of the person speaking.

If there wasn't enough evidence of something, it was the "Perception of Others" (for whatever reason) that gave "validity" to the accusations, whether they were valid or just second hand info and hearsay.

If what presented was factual and had witnesses and information to back it up, and others didn't agree with it, "you must have Perceived it incorrectly.

And, as stated, if it wasn't admitted or admonished "Publicly," then it "must" have been true. Not necessarily.

Serving at HQ in a position that actually dealt with the accusations, the NJPs, the Investigations, the Courts Martial and Trials taught me to reserve judgement until all the facts are in, including mitigating circumstances, because everyone is entitled to their day in Court, and people ARE actually presumed innocent, until proven otherwise.

Some of the most highly "Advertised" cases, were not what they seemed, when dealing with just the Facts in Question. Some of the scariest cases in CG History, never made it to the Navy Times.

Hearsay, innuendo, vendettas, and the Navy Times often lacked the proper Facts of the Case and Investigation to satisfy the spin made up by the Un-Informed Masses (ie. Messdeck Intelligence), not to be confused with the Uniformed Authorities, who were charged with Adjudicating the Case.

'Working at HQ" shouldn't "assume" all the knowledge and answers of the CG are bestowed on those who have done that tour. It does, however, give many the opportunity to experience and learn the true processes of the System, and bring that knowledge back out to the Field to dispell the many Myths associated with CGHQ. Sharing that knowledge helps everyone learn and better themselves, strengthen their Crews, and the future of the Service.

Its amazing how many people have so much to say with little to no substance. If you dont know the facts of the case then shut up! If you do know them then you shouldnt be on here talking about it since an investigation is ongoin.
I served with Mr. Dow on the Grand Isle, I was his BM1 back in '99-'00. He is a great guy!! I dont know a thing about this situation and wont speculate about it until the final facts come out from the investigation.
I can tell you this though, I would work with him again any day of the week. Now maybe the rest of you can give him and the other person who is involved a break until the facts come out.
Get a life and step away from the computer.

470 --> It was made public that the CO had been relieved. This is a public discussion board. People have the right to discuss this if they please.. Anything said here has nothing to do with the investigation.

Much of what is said here is based on past experiences. Regardless of CDR Dow's past performance, this is what is on the plate now.

Wray...

People keep talking about 'presuming innocence' and 'proven guilty,' once again, an RFC is not a criminal charge. There is no innocent or guilt. Granted, the situation that precipitated the RFC may also precipitate criminal or other charges, but they are independant issues.

Even Mil1's post of the definition of privilege and assertation that it is synonomous to a right, is flawed becuase he failed to point out the 'conditional' nature of a privilege. He also failed to mention that certifying for command also requires maintaining that certification.

I too have served with CDR Gow. He is an outstanding person, shipmate and officer. I know nothing of the particulars of this case. For all I know, it could be as simple as he was playing poker with a MCPO. (He would be invited at my table any day, but would be ripe for a RFC for doing it)

All of that said, there are two seperate issues! A person in Command must keep the confidence of his boss. If even completly innocent acts or ommisions, lead to unfavorable 'perceptions,' then the ability to command and the trust and confidence of the superior is harmed!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mightyz90_93,

quote:

Originally posted by CgShipmate:
This is interesting information. It might explain some of the scuttlebutt I heard about that unit over the last year.

as a current willow sailor and someone who reported 2 1/2 years ago 2 weeks after CDR Dow and as someone who DOES have all the facts, this post still absolutely disturbs me still.

You imply "some" meaning more than one rumor, yet you do not elaborate. which would lead a competent person to believe you post for the sake of posting and nothing more. You dont reveal sources, you dont have facts, you just put your tiny spoon in the pot for the sake of stirring it, I ecourage you to either step up and share what you heard and I will confirm or deny honestly. and then reveal your source and i will call that person an idiot.

One man, who i greatly respect and i am personally saddened by this whole situation, does not define the outstanding tour many of us have had on a greatly respected boat with an outstanding tradition of good sailors .

Ive been from Canada to Cuba with that boat and that Commanding Officer and if you have something to say, then step up and say it or feel free to shut the hell up .

Christopher

Chris, I was hoping you would chime in sooner or later. Do you have orders yet?

Im sure your feeling the same thing I felt after our XO drove the ship into the wall and our CO was getting raked over the coals on here. Try not to get too fired up.

too bad you showed up 2 weeks after COC. It was a hell of a party

////EM1 FORMER WILLOW SAILOR SENDS

quote:

Originally posted by black_hull_coastie:
Chris, I was hoping you would chime in sooner or later. Do you have orders yet?

Im sure your feeling the same thing I felt after our XO drove the ship into the wall and our CO was getting raked over the coals on here. Try not to get too fired up.

too bad you showed up 2 weeks after COC. It was a hell of a party

////EM1 FORMER WILLOW SAILOR SENDS

nothing yet, i heard the started slating bm2's on monday so its wait and see. i got healy, henry blake and terrapin on my sheet, the girlfriend lives in seattle so this district 1 crap has gotta come to an end, 7 out of 9 years up here man..

and the willow thing : its simple, if i heard something about your boat, id shoot you an email and say wtf, i wouldnt be a toolbag and put a rumor on here without checking or having the stones to back it up . simple as that.

You can't imply that the mods are toolbags here.
Attack the message not the messenger.
Also seeing as you have all the facts, you want to share them with the people here that have asked questions?

Peace,

This "RFC" issue seems to be happening more often. Or is it just me? These last two years seem to have been brutal. I just don't remember so many in so short a timeframe.

Just wondering.

Spies with picture phones?

quote:

Originally posted by XShipRider:
This "RFC" issue seems to be happening more often. Or is it just me? These last two years seem to have been brutal. I just don't remember so many in so short a timeframe.

Just wondering.

IMO it's because how ridiculously "PC" the Coast Guard (and America in general) has gotten over the last 4 - 5 years.

There have been and will continue to be RFCs. Because of the size of the Coast Guard and the fact that we all either know someone or someone who knows the skinny in almost every one of them if it were up to me I wouldn't allow any discussion about them at all.

Pure and simply a RFC is just that; a relief for cause. What cause? I don't know and I don't want to read about it here first - unless it is published in some newspaper, or otherwise released to the press. It isn't a criminal proceeding nor is it our business to guess what happened and question the CO and his Commander's judgement.

On the other hand even without the rumors, innuendos, or suggestions, people are going to post their opinions - please keep the discussion on that instead of directing it at an individual.