I was reading a Navy Times article that stated beginning in '08, Navy enlisted members will get points added to their final advancement multiple for having advanced degrees. The exact details are still being worked out.

Is this something the Coast Guard should consider doing? I for one think it would be a good idea, I think its about time enlisted members receive some type of professional perk for obtaining advanced degrees.

I disagree with the concept. While I’ve got nothing against those who pursue their education while serving on active duty (that’s how I earned my undergraduate degree), I question whether or not a BM1 holding a degree in, let’s say Philosophy, is necessarily “better” at his job than his colleagues (and if you’re going to use off-duty education as a “perk” for advancement purposes, then that’s the point being conveyed, whether one would like to admit it or not). Enlisted folks have enough hurdles they have to surmount in order to advance. Throwing in another variable (one in my mind which would be completely irrelevant in terms of determining ability to perform the actual tasks associated with the skill sets required for any of our ratings) as a freebie just doesn’t make sense in my book. And, no, I don’t think that holding down a degree necessarily makes one a better leader and/or manager. It’s something nice that you can hang on the wall and it’ll definitely help out when it comes time to separate or retire, but that’s it.

I concur with JMoore...

First off, its tough to get degrees when you are attached to certain types of units. Impossible? No, but much tougher than a job that puts you home every night and weekend. This would be the first disadvantage to that system.

Secondly, as stated above, a degree in may not have anything to do with your rating withing the CG and therefore should NOT count towards your final multiple on a SWE.

just my two cents.....

...I guess its time to get that degree in underwater basket weaving. That will leave me one step ahead of the game if they ever change the policy!

Yep, I am not sure this is where the CG wants to take its advancement process. Those assigned to high optempo units would be punished for just not having time.

I bet the article fails to mention that Navy units have satellite internet connectivity, so the sailors can work on there degrees during the evenings. Until the CG units can offer that, dont bet that this will become a policy.

T

It doesn't affect me, but of course I have an opinion -- one formed over quite a few years as a union representative of public school employees.

Americans (and especially parents) are obsessed with the idea that everyone (especially, again, their children) should go to college and get a degree in "something." The popular press reinforces this by spinning the published statistics in a way that shows college graduates earn so much more money over their lifetime than non-college graduates.

Actually, there is not a dire need for "workers" (okay, "employees") in positions requiring a college education. There is a need for workers with good technical training in specialty occupations.

The "education establishment" is trying to go in this direction. At the high level school it's called "career education" or "school to career" (NOT "vocational education," nomenclature that has developed a negative connotation), and the community colleges are also providing more technical education/training (the reason for their existence in the first place).

The military (including the Coast Guard, of course) have always led the way in providing good technical training. Some of it isn't a direct fit to jobs on the "outside," but much of it is. Even when it isn't directly applicable to civilian jobs, the training provides a base upon which civilian expertise can be built.

Requiring just about anyone in enlisted ratings to have a college education for selection or advancement is a waste of time, money and other resources -- both for the Service and for the individual.

Just my thoughts...

I'm still amazed that colleges offer "vocational" training as I went to a Vocational-Technical High School.

The old adage ... follow the money ... applies.

I'm of the ilk that a college degree is not necessary for enlisted.

This doesn't mean it's not "nice to have" for future endeavors ... it's just not a job requirement.

Certifications on the other hand are diretly related to the enlisted positions. Commercial certifications should hold some value in the advancment system.

All have mentioned a college degree is not necessary for enlisted So the logic would be it is necessary for officers?

As one who obtained a Master's while in the enlisted force, I do agree that having a degree should not be tied to promotion. However, when I was struggling through night school I recall another old-timer in a class, a U.S. Marine one grade below SGT MAJ. He said--at that time--if you wanted to be a senior NCO and have embassy duty, you had better get a degree. If the powers that be want more civil education for the enlisted force, then they should provide the means to obtain it. Or, they should tie certain types of duty in the senior grades to education.

The largest failing in the educational system, in my view, is stressing that education means a better job. A degree above high school should mean that you have been exposed, and understand, a number of ideas and concepts that makes the individual better understand the world that one lives in. It is up to the individual's own drive that gets a better job.

Thus, endth the lecture for a Sunday.

If true, then good for the Navy. Maybe they're finally catching up to some of the other services. I'm of, have been for many years, that a college classes/degree should count towards the SWE. IRT enlisted folks, it should never be a requirement for the CG or mandatory for jobs, but it should be a plus. I have been vocal about it when the opportunity presents itself. If the CG supports higher education, then acknowledge the effort and results where it counts.

Anyone can take some type of college level classes regardless of the unit. Anyone can get a degree during the course of a career. You probably won't get it at one unit, but it's a level playing field for each rating. The CG gives everyone the tools and opportunity, what you do with them is your decision and yours alone.

Bottom line....how bad do want it and what are you waiting for?

I hope before I retire one day I will see the CG mature to the point of awarding SWE points for the college effort.

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I'm of, have been for many years, that a college classes/degree should count towards the SWE.

I disagree with a degree being tied to advancement. As has been pointed out here in an earlier post, the majority of degrees have nothing to do with one's rating.

I worked for 30 years in the private sector and it irked me immensely to see companies hire a person with a completely unrelated degree over someone that lacked a degree but had 10+ years experience.

The one example that leaps to mind was a Production Mgr. with no prior experience in that job, that was hired because of his degree (As I recall it was something like Classical English Literature. He was hired despite the fact that other applicants with as much as 20 years experience had applied. I interviewed them all and he was absolutely NOT the best person for th eposition.

When my brother was a BM3/Cox'n up in Portsmouth, NH, he had time to take night courses. I believe some were in Criminalogy. Because a New England station has nowhere near the activity load of a South Florida station, he was able to gain many credits with the time he had to study. Now I found the time to take a law class at a community college, got a "B" while stationed in the Keys but it wasn't always easy to find the time.

I know that some Sheriff's Offices in FL, the Fish & Wildlife Commission and maybe FHP as well, want a 2 yr degree for Sgt and a 4 yr degree for Capt.

I do agree with the many previous posts that just because someone has a degree in basket weaving, they shouldn't automatically be considered a better BMCS or whatever. But, if it comes down to two or three E-6's, all with about the same tests scores, marks and experience, I would think having a degree that has something to do with the Coast Guard mission may give that person the edge.

I've mentioned before but will repeat it, for CBP a GS-11 Marine Interdiction Agent has to have a Six pack License and a GS-12 has to have a Masters License.

Just my thoughts, right or wrong....

Don

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Originally posted by Ex_CG_GM:

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I'm of, have been for many years, that a college classes/degree should count towards the SWE.

I disagree with a degree being tied to advancement. As has been pointed out here in an earlier post, the majority of degrees have nothing to do with one's rating.

As I said, a degree or college classes. If you don't take classes or have a degree, it's not held against you. You still compete like anyone else in your rating. My thought is it doesn't have to be classes or a degree related specifically your rating. That might not be practical in all fields. Folks get too hung up on the idea that, for example, if you're an HS you naturally have to take medical related classes to mean anything. If a member does, great. If member chooses to study accounting, that's good too. The point is the member sought to improve themselves. It's about recognizing personal and professional educational growth above and beyond what the CG teaches you. It would be just one piece of the advancement pie.

the army I believe gives points toward advancement for having a college degree. Don't see why the CG cannot do the same thing.

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Originally posted by ching2201:
the army I believe gives points toward advancement for having a college degree. Don't see why the CG cannot do the same thing.

The Army also gives Points for PT scores...Not a bad idea.

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I question whether or not a BM1 holding a degree in, let’s say Philosophy, is necessarily “better” at his job than his colleagues

But what if the degree held is something related to the job. I would venture to say that an IT with a degree in Network Security or Systems Management would have more knowledge and a better understanding on his job than one that doesn't. The same goes with an EM, MK, or ET having engineering degrees in their related fields.

Perhaps if this does become a reality for the guard this would be one way to make it relevant. That is to say, the degree must be in something that "is" job rate related.

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I question whether or not a BM1 holding a degree in, let’s say Philosophy, is necessarily “better” at his job than his colleagues

Oh, I don't know. I seem to remember some philosophical discussions with a couple of BM1s and BMCs.

A college education improves interpersonal skills and communication makes for a better leader and/or manager. This is true whether the degree is related to the rate or not. Of course I am biased as I am a college professor and I'm drumming up business. However, that does not make what I said inaccurate.

I believe how well you know and perform your rate is what is inportant, I know a lot of folks with paper on their walls I do not want in any engine room I am running. as for better communication skills at least for the MK and BM rates we sure spent a lot of time communicating as we come up through paygrades. Just my opinion but I dont thing a degree should count, its nice but it would count against the people at busy units

Giving advancement points for degrees and certifications are one thing. I suggested that rate related degrees and certifications should have advancement points to the RFMC back in 1995.

Requiring a degree for advancement is entirely different.

What position in the CG requires a degree? Not nice to have, but something that is absolutely beyond a shadow of doubt required. Professors at the CGA certainly comes to mind, but that a relatively small percentage of the officer billets.

Someone mentioned Network Security Degree. There is a Certification for Network Security ... and you don't need a degree to obtain it, you need to possess the knowledge to get past whatever tests they ask you to do.

Does anyone know what was given the officers upon completion of the School of Instruction, the precursor to the CGA? And remember this, there was a time when Officers competed in a Service Wide Exam for advancement.

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Originally posted by PBMKC:
Just my opinion but I dont thing a degree should count, its nice but it would count against the people at busy units

How would it count against folks at a busy unit if it takes nothing away from them?

Think longer term over the course of a career. The busy unit member might not be able to pursue classes/courses at the same pace with someone at a slow unit. However thier next tour or two could be at slower units. You're competing within the rating. Everyone within that specific rating has equal opportunity at the different paced units throughout their careers.

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The point is the member sought to improve themselves. It's about recognizing personal and professional educational growth above and beyond what the CG teaches you. It would be just one piece of the advancement pie.

However you are using potentially completely unrelated data to enhance a person's advancement in their career. I beleive that to be a poor move.

If an individual is pursuing a degree in an unrelated field first you have to ask "Why?". I would imagine for many it is to prepare themselves for life outside the CG. And that is absolutely fine, but since it does nothing to further the professional qualifications in their specific rating then why should it count toward advancement in that rating?

quote:

Originally posted by PBMKC:
I believe how well you know and perform your rate is what is inportant, I know a lot of folks with paper on their walls I do not want in any engine room I am running. as for better communication skills at least for the MK and BM rates we sure spent a lot of time communicating as we come up through paygrades. Just my opinion but I dont thing a degree should count, its nice but it would count against the people at busy units

In my opinion, the Coast Guard does not do an adequate job of preparing people for their post-Coast Guard lives. The central reason I feel this way is because of the lack of attention paid to enlisted education initiatives.

While I completely understand that the vast majority of USCG enlisted careers do not require a college education, the vast majority of civilian careers do. Technical training and certifications are fine for certain job specialties (skilled workers, technicians, machinists, etc come immediately to mind).

However, for people who retire from the CG after 20+ years of service, chances are they haven't been directly doing maintenance or operating the gear-- they've advanced to a point at which they're supervising the people actually doing that work. Therefore they're not in jobs that directly require certifications or qualifications from community colleges/trade schools. They're in management/leadership positions.

While military careers do breed leaders and managers, the only corollary most civilian employers have to that experience and leadership capability is a college degree. It's a baseline measure. It shows that an individual has gone outside the required training and education they had to get (high school, military qualifications, etc) and shown that they have the capacity to complete a long-term goal. The military experience is icing on the cake, but the foundation for many civilian employers is a college degree.

We owe it to our senior enlisted members to give them the foundation for a successful post-USCG career. We also need it to be an enticing benefit to attract more recruits who are going to use the military as a 4-year stepping-stone to their future careers outside the military.

Putting our enlisted Coasties on the road toward earning their college degrees is a good investment in the Service's future as well as good stewardship to our people. We talk all the time about taking care of our people in the USCG-- why do we put our enlisted people in a position where they're not as competitive for civilian sector jobs as their contemporaries from the USN, USAF, and Army? (I know the Marine Corps has also made inroads toward these educational initiatives but I believe they're as far behind as the USCG in implementing them).