Phil,

If we were talking navigation only, Loran-C would have shut down two decades ago. If there were no holes in GPS, Loran-C would be relegated to join the sextant, RDF, Loran-A, and Omega in the annuals of history.

I've seen a few of the documents discussion the shutdown of Loran-C in the 80s.

Geez, I must be getting old. I remember when the best navigation tool entering a harbor in the fog was a good boat crew member with a decent set of eyes and a good set of lungs. When I first went to Woods Hole we had one radar boat. The rest was good old fashioned navigation by the boat crews.

From what I have read LORAN C is evolving to Enhanced LORAN (E-LORAN) and will be moving from the Coast Guard to Homeland Security - National Protection and Programs Directorate (NPP).

As both a pleasure boater and private pilot, over the years I have seen a few occasions where GPS has failed because of solar storms. I think the most recent major solar storm event occurred in 2006 and lasted a couple of days. So I am glad that the Feds have realized that there is a need for a terrestrial based system to back-up our GPS system, but I don't understand the motives for moving E-LORAN under DHS - NPP. Particularly since NPP and the Coast Guard are both under the Department of Homeland Security.

This may help the Commandant reduce the budget, but overall the cost will be the same to the taxpayer. Actually, there may be additional costs considering NPP staffing and training requirements to pick up E-LORAN, just to name a couple.

The evolution to E-LORAN is almost a no-brainer, but since the Coast Guard has been in the LORAN business since about 1941, my gut feeling is that unless someone has a very persuavise argument, E-LORAN should go to the Coast Guard.

LCDR Chuck Gullage USCGR (Retired)
(former ET1 Lampang and Sandy Hook LORAN)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 17954917,

I know many of the fisherman who fish on the east coast in the Gulf of Maine and elsewhere still rely on Loran as a primary source of setting their gear. This goes back when that is all they had and know the bottom and numbers off the top of their head. It will get very interesting around here if Loran C goes away.

quote:

Originally posted by Surfman308:
Finally something smart not to spend money on. With the amount of money the government spends on keeping these dinosaurs open, they could probably buy everyone that still has loran C on their boat, a new GPS, twice over.

It's about reliability. GPS can be taken out with a flip of a switch. LORAN, not so easy... In case you don't know, there are operating LORAN-C Stations all over the United States that are maintained by the Coast Guard. No LORAN means less jobs for us...

So we should invest in obsolescence? The Coast Guard is stretched thin on assets now and has always been stretched thin. Loran if not discontinued should go to another agency. Coasties should be set free to take on the myriad of missions which have cropped up since 9/11.

quote:

So we should invest in obsolescence?

No we shouldn't. Is there still a mission for Loran, as eLoran? Sure.

What is obsolete?

If you were talking strickly navigation, I would say the geodetic accuracy of GPS is superior to Loran-C. If your talking repeatability (going back to where you were before) they are somewhat compatible.

There is a reason a Federal Radio Navigation Plan is issued every two years ... to look at the mix of RadNav systems to see what we should keep.

This isn't the first time Loran-C was on the chopping block. The CG desperately wants to rid itself of Loran-C. I have no doubt about that. Moving it to another section of DHS or to DOT is one move they probably considered since the 90s when Loran-C as a military mission was discontinued.

A-76ing the mission has been discussed in the mid-80s.

Obsolescence in one area only opens opportunity in other areas. Navigation, precise timing, and communications are but a few of the things you can get from Loran-C.

Joe,
Did you get my e-mail through the LORAN station history site about Port Clarence?
--Rick

Rick,

Apparently not.

If you didn't get any errors when you sent it, it should have arrived.

Is moving KPC to Nome back on the books after a respite of 26 years?

That was being considered. The last I heard, CG civil engineers actually visited a site ownd by the local native corporation to see if it would be suitable.

Money is/was the biggest hurdle...

quote:

The last I heard, CG civil engineers actually visited a site ownd by the local native corporation to see if it would be suitable.

Probably re-visited the same sites that were visited 20 years ago.

A quarter-section of land is all they need for the unit.

Also twenty-six or so years ago, there was talk of moving Lorsta ATTU to Adak ... but ... the cooperative US-Russian chain would put the talk to a quick and painless death.

From last CO at LORSTA Middletown before control function moved to Petaluma.

In the 1990’s during Pres. Clinton administration it was decided to greatly reduce intelligence gathering costs by relying almost exclusively on satellite images. This resulted in the US of not having informants on the ground to keep us informed on Al Qaeda plans and misinterpreting what Saddam was up to. Such tunnel vision has had dire consequences.

In a hypothetical situation suppose I was the leader of Iran and decided that I wanted to increase my sphere of influence in the Middle East by taking over Iraq and several other countries. I know that the US would use smart bombs that used GPS for precise bombing. I would then want to put the GPS out of service. Not hard to do. All I would need to do is send a few rockets with fragmentation warheads to blast in the flight path of GPS satellites. I might even get an ally like North Korea to assist me in this endeavor by knocking out a few more at the same time.

Of course it only takes the loss of a few GPS satellites to make the whole system unusable worldwide, including US airspace. The new FAA control system for airlines depends on GPS. The destruction of the GPS system would cause havoc in more places then just the airline industry. It would be an economic disaster.

The only thing is crippling the GPS system is just as bad for the other guys as it is for us.

quote:

Originally posted by 13308579:
From last CO at LORSTA Middletown before control function moved to Petaluma.

In the 1990’s during Pres. Clinton administration it was decided to greatly reduce intelligence gathering costs by relying almost exclusively on satellite images. This resulted in the US of not having informants on the ground to keep us informed on Al Qaeda plans and misinterpreting what Saddam was up to. Such tunnel vision has had dire consequences.

In a hypothetical situation suppose I was the leader of Iran and decided that I wanted to increase my sphere of influence in the Middle East by taking over Iraq and several other countries. I know that the US would use smart bombs that used GPS for precise bombing. I would then want to put the GPS out of service. Not hard to do. All I would need to do is send a few rockets with fragmentation warheads to blast in the flight path of GPS satellites. I might even get an ally like North Korea to assist me in this endeavor by knocking out a few more at the same time.

Of course it only takes the loss of a few GPS satellites to make the whole system unusable worldwide, including US airspace. The new FAA control system for airlines depends on GPS. The destruction of the GPS system would cause havoc in more places then just the airline industry. It would be an economic disaster.

Great first post, although I got to wonder whether your facts correct? Is this your area of expertice?

quote:

Originally posted by asm3driscoll:

quote:

Originally posted by 13308579:
From last CO at LORSTA Middletown before control function moved to Petaluma.

In the 1990’s during Pres. Clinton administration it was decided to greatly reduce intelligence gathering costs by relying almost exclusively on satellite images. This resulted in the US of not having informants on the ground to keep us informed on Al Qaeda plans and misinterpreting what Saddam was up to. Such tunnel vision has had dire consequences.

In a hypothetical situation suppose I was the leader of Iran and decided that I wanted to increase my sphere of influence in the Middle East by taking over Iraq and several other countries. I know that the US would use smart bombs that used GPS for precise bombing. I would then want to put the GPS out of service. Not hard to do. All I would need to do is send a few rockets with fragmentation warheads to blast in the flight path of GPS satellites. I might even get an ally like North Korea to assist me in this endeavor by knocking out a few more at the same time.

Of course it only takes the loss of a few GPS satellites to make the whole system unusable worldwide, including US airspace. The new FAA control system for airlines depends on GPS. The destruction of the GPS system would cause havoc in more places then just the airline industry. It would be an economic disaster.

Great first post, although I got to wonder whether your facts correct? Is this your area of expertice?

Most of what I said is history. Read the following 2 links:

<REMOVED>

In response to Hooligan1790, most Middle East countries do not have near the relience on GPS. None of these countries have the need for Flight Control Centers to control all the commercial and military flights. They still have ox carts on the roads. If GPS is lost the number of flights will need to be drastically cut. There are many other users for GPS in the US that would be severely impacted. The European nations would fare better since they will still have their own LORAN system.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 1110,

quote:

In response to Hooligan1790, most Middle East countries do not have near the relience on GPS.

Those same countries lack the ability to take it out. I guess it is simply a matter of what the experts deem as necessary.

quote:

Originally posted by 13308579:
From last CO at LORSTA Middletown before control function moved to Petaluma.

In the 1990’s during Pres. Clinton administration it was decided to greatly reduce intelligence gathering costs by relying almost exclusively on satellite images. This resulted in the US of not having informants on the ground to keep us informed on Al Qaeda plans and misinterpreting what Saddam was up to. Such tunnel vision has had dire consequences.
-Unlike you, I cannot put the full blame on the Clinton admistration for relying more on technology. It's the American way as evidenced by our increased use of GPS by the average person. You also forget that terrorist groups that are religious based are almost impossible to penetrate. Unlike the Cold War where informants could be motivated by money, it won't work that way with fanatical organizations.

In a hypothetical situation suppose I was the leader of Iran and decided that I wanted to increase my sphere of influence in the Middle East by taking over Iraq and several other countries. I know that the US would use smart bombs that used GPS for precise bombing. I would then want to put the GPS out of service. Not hard to do. All I would need to do is send a few rockets with fragmentation warheads to blast in the flight path of GPS satellites. I might even get an ally like North Korea to assist me in this endeavor by knocking out a few more at the same time.
-This scenario would be an overt 'act of war.' We may not be able to totally defeat and occupy these countries, well, it would be a long time before they could attempt the same thing again.

Of course it only takes the loss of a few GPS satellites to make the whole system unusable worldwide, including US airspace. The new FAA control system for airlines depends on GPS. The destruction of the GPS system would cause havoc in more places then just the airline industry. It would be an economic disaster.
-I will agree with your first sentence but not the rest of this paragraph. I retired from the FAA as an ACTS five years ago. And, yes some progress has been made in updated the system, the FAA just doesn't move that fast. I do believe that our ATC system still relies on Victor and Jet airways. These are made up using VORTACs for navigation. I really doubt that losing GPS would affect domestic air traffic much as you say in your following post. As for Loran, it has not been used, domestically, for air traffic in the last 25+ years

Your two links were probably removed because they were hot link capable. If you would, please post them again but insert spaces between the slashes. Then we can copy and paste and remove the spaces ourselves. I would like to see your references.

Don't sound the death knell yet.

Members of the Senate's Commerce, Science and Transportation Committee have introduced a bill, S 1194 -- Coast Guard Authorization Act for Fiscal Years 2010 and 2011 -- that, if passed, would require that the US Coast Guard "maintain the LORAN-C navigation system until such time as the Secretary is authorized by statute, explicitly referencing this section, to cease operating the system but expedite modernization projects necessary for transition to eLORAN technology."

In March of this year, the Coast Guard announced that they would be closing down the 24 LORAN-C (Long Range Aid to Navigation) stations operated under the auspices of the USCG. LORAN stations provide navigation, location and timing services for both civil and military air, land and marine users. According to the USCG, LORAN-C is approved as an en route supplemental air navigation system for both Instrument Flight Rule (IFR) and Visual Flight Rule (VFR) operations. The LORAN-C system serves the 48 continental states, their coastal areas and parts of Alaska.

On February 26, 2009, the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) publicly announced the President's Fiscal Year 2010 Budget. In the section for the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), the budget "supports the termination of outdated systems such as the terrestrial-based, long-range radionavigation (LORAN-C) operated by the US Coast Guard, resulting in an offset of $36 million in 2010 and $190 million over five years." The USCG, once a part of the US Department of Transportation, is now under the direction of DHS.

S 1194 authorizes appropriations to the Department of Transportation of $37 million for each of fiscal years 2010 and 2011 "for capital expenses related to the LORAN-C infrastructure and to modernize and upgrade the LORAN infrastructure to provide eLORAN services." These funds are in addition to the almost $9.5 billion the Committee appropriated for "necessary expenses of the Coast Guard for each of fiscal years 2010 and 2011."

The bill also instructs the Coast Guard to provide a detailed five year plan for transition to eLORAN technology to the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation and the House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure. The plan would include "the timetable, milestones, projects and future funding required to complete the transition from LORAN-C to eLORAN technology for provision of positioning, navigation, and timing services," as well as "the benefits of eLORAN for national transportation safety, security, and economic growth."

A modernized, or eLoran version, has been proposed as a back-up for GPS and other global navigation satellite systems, as both old and new versions are much more resistant to jamming. According to the 2001 Volpe Report from the Department of Transportation, "GPS also is vulnerable to spoofing, broadcast signals with deliberately misleading information, and to unintentional interference. The latter can be due to natural causes (for example, solar flares and ionospheric scintillation), but also to human sources (for example, TV broadcasts, Mobile Satellite Services, Ultra Wide-Band systems, military jamming/spoofing tests and military communications systems). A peculiar but valid class of vulnerability is the degree of unrealistic expectations that can be produced in enthusiastic but unwary GPS users."

LORAN-A stations were developed beginning in World War II, and signals were transmitted on frequencies in and around our present-day 160 meter band. LORAN-A was responsible for reduced Amateur Radio operations -- including frequency and power limitations -- on 160 meters in the United States. In 1979, the Coast Guard phased out the LORAN-A stations; they were replaced by LORAN-C stations. The newer stations operated on 100 kHz, enabling the restrictions on 160 meters due to LORAN functions, to be dropped.

The Senate bill is sponsored by Senator Maria Cantwell (D-WA), with co-sponsors Kay Bailey Hutchison (R-TX), John D. Rockefeller IV (D-WV) and Olympia Snowe (R-ME). Similar legislation is before the House Appropriations Committee.

Hawk

quote:

The only thing is crippling the GPS system is just as bad for the other guys as it is for us.

The American public would be outraged if the bombing reverted to WWII style bombing ... lot of collateral damage. Smart bombs become dumb bomb without GPS.

quote:

All I would need to do is send a few rockets with fragmentation warheads to blast in the flight path of GPS satellites. I might even get an ally like North Korea to assist me in this endeavor by knocking out a few more at the same time.

Even easier than that. One can protect their prized assets by jamming GPS using terrestial based equipments. That was done by the U.S. Navy in this country, inadvertently of course, for a few hours. That technology (jamming GPS) is 20 years old.

You would be hard pressed to accuse IRAN for creating an act of war when they have not attacked anything but electromagnetic energy in their own airspace.

During the year I spent on LORSTA Gesashi, Okinawa (1972-1973), the Army used to give us about $5.00 per man for morale purposes. As there were always around 40 of us stationed there, this came to about $200 a month. The Army didn't care how we spent the money. Neither did the Coast Guard (I asked the FESEC Commander about it once and his repsponse was that if the Army gave it to us he didn't care what we did with it. Good guy - he retired as a Vice Admiral). So no accounting for these funds, no audits, just spend it any way you want. I let the crew decide how to use the money. Without getting into the details, we had several all hands, all-night parties where some "ladies" from down south were invited to attend. Morale was never higher than after one of these parties. Now that was how to spend Government money and it provided a "stimulus" to the local economy - I guess we were about three decades ahead of our time.