quote:

Originally posted by JerryG:

Well, enough with hijacking the thread. Back to the Case of Cap'n and Coke...

Was it his private stock?

quote:

Well, enough with hijacking the thread. Back to the Case of Cap'n and Coke...

Well Jerry, as the thread opener, I certainly don't mind a little drift. Seems like a long time since a topic extended to 3 pages or beyond on the Point-CounterPoint.

quote:

Originally posted by akwaman:

quote:

Originally posted by Mightyz90_93:
hell yes, MASTs are often held as 3 ring Circus with clowns, with no intention to hand out actual punishment, but with the intention to make a significant emotional impact on the member or others. Actually have seen a couple held KNOWING that the member would be found not guilty of any wrongdoing. They were held to ensure all hands that a specific matter was addressed in an open and actually very fair manner.

As someone who has been to mast (or what I like to refer to as "putting with the Captain") There are few things in life more terrifying than standing across the green table cloth from the Skipper. It leaves a lasting impression on the member and all those invited in to watch in the case of an open mast proceeding. I believe some of our DOD counterparts call it "fire for effect" it works.
Cheers!

AKWAMAN

Ill second every piece of this post. A mast is clearly not the place for a "show". It scares the crap out of the member.

I have had the experience of witnessing roughly 25 masts, being the PIO for 1, and the subject of 2.

Now a majority of the 25 I witnessed were for valid reasons, aand the results were valid as well. The two I was involved in, and the one I was the PIO for, and recommended dismassal for were not. For my two, the CO both times willfully overlooked evidence that indicated I did not commit the offense. In both, I was found to have committed the offense. In both I was awarded punishment, and in both, everything was later overturned. I was awarded backpay, and in the last case court damages.

The last case was by far the ugliest, but I maintained course and speed, and learned alot about how it feels to be falsely accused of something. The last case was also one in which I told the CO to shut the hell up and listen in the middle of the mast because she kept interrupting me with trivial and unrelated jokes or commentary, and at least twice, she rolled her eyes. The rolling of the eyes was the trigger for my response.

In the one I investigated, I recommended charges dropped for one 3307 entry. The CO disregarded by recommendation, which he had a right too, and took the two members to mast. Only with this case, it was VERY, VERY clear the members didnt intend to commit an offense.

There is nothing fair about the NJP process, and when combined with incompetant COs, the results can be disasterous.

T

Good discussion going on here, I like to see it! -Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by militia1:

The perscription use is an interesting subject. Is it technically illegal? Yes.

But I would be lying if I told you I have never done it.
I pulled my back laying carpet about a month ago.
I took some perscription muscle relaxer my mother in law gave me because I had nothing else.

I have no clue what was in it, but my mother in law works for a Doctor, and I feel confident enough to trust she knows what she is giving me.
Just my opinion, but if there is a legitimate injury involved, its really not that big of a deal.

T

militia1,
You're post is scary on a couple of points.

First you state that you were a CDAR when you were on AD. You can see that I highlighted some key points that today’s CDAR’s (are they still called that) are aware of.

I don't know the type of Substance Abuse briefings you were required to give out as a CDAR. In today’s CG, Coasties are specifically told at Substance Abuse briefings (and online at the CG E-Learning's GMT on Substance Abuse) that what you stated about taking someone else's medication is not only not allowed, it is a punishable offense under the UCMJ.

Furthermore, if what your Mother-in-law gave you was a narcotic (Ex. hydrocodone, Vicodin), than she technically broke the law. The fact that she is in the medical field with access to drugs and handing them out (assuming she's not an MD with the legal authority to do so - or an RN who’s authorized to prescribe certain meds (not narcotics)) is even more troubling!
She could lose her license for that.

If you were still in the CG, based upon what you publicly stated on the Internet about knowingly taking someone else's prescription, I would draft a booking chit and send it to your command. If for nothing else, as a "fire for effect" warning to other Coasties that what you did was wrong, probably illegal, and a UCMJ violation to those in the military.

If you have a “legitimate injury”, you go to a professional medial doctor, who will evaluate your injury, and treat/prescribe you according to the injury you have.

In closing, the fact that you work for a first responder agency and knowingly take other peoples prescription medications is not something I believe I (or the world for that matter) need to know. I only hope that your current employer (or a possible future employer while conducting a background check) does not find your posting.

I have to ask...
Was Captain Michael Sullivan ever one of your mentors when you were in the CG?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 1110,

quote:

Originally posted by UnknownCoastie:

quote:

Originally posted by militia1:

The perscription use is an interesting subject. Is it technically illegal? Yes.

But I would be lying if I told you I have never done it.
I pulled my back laying carpet about a month ago.
I took some perscription muscle relaxer my mother in law gave me because I had nothing else.

I have no clue what was in it, but my mother in law works for a Doctor, and I feel confident enough to trust she knows what she is giving me.
Just my opinion, but if there is a legitimate injury involved, its really not that big of a deal.

T

militia1,
You're post is scary on a couple of points.

First you state that you were a CDAR when you were on AD. You can see that I highlighted some key points that today’s CDAR’s (are they still called that) are aware of.

I don't know the type of Substance Abuse briefings you were required to give out as a CDAR. In today’s CG, Coasties are specifically told at Substance Abuse briefings (and online at the CG E-Learning's GMT on Substance Abuse) that what you stated about taking someone else's medication is not only not allowed, it is a punishable offense under the UCMJ.

Furthermore, if what your Mother-in-law gave you was a narcotic (Ex. hydrocodone, Vicodin), than she technically broke the law. The fact that she is in the medical field with access to drugs and handing them out (assuming she's not an MD with the legal authority to do so - or an RN who’s authorized to prescribe certain meds (not narcotics)) is even more troubling!
She could lose her license for that.

If you were still in the CG, based upon what you publicly stated on the Internet about knowingly taking someone else's prescription, I would draft a booking chit and send it to your command. If for nothing else, as a "fire for effect" warning to other Coasties that what you did was wrong, probably illegal, and a UCMJ violation to those in the military.

If you have a “legitimate injury”, you go to a professional medial doctor, who will evaluate your injury, and treat/prescribe you according to the injury you have.

In closing, the fact that you work for a first responder agency and knowingly take other peoples prescription medications is not something I believe I (or the world for that matter) need to know. I only hope that your current employer (or a possible future employer while conducting a background check) does not find your posting.

I have to ask...
Was Captain Michael Sullivan ever one of your mentors when you were in the CG?

Well, I am not going to disagree with you when you have some really good points. But I am extremely honest, and in the interest of full disclosure, it was my hope to initiate an open and honest discussion about the issue.

I suspect I am not the only one posting here who has ever taken a prescription which wasnt issued directly to them. Of course it wasnt Vicoden, or Oxycotin. Like I said, she worked every day with a doc that specializes in sports injuries, and she recommended the medication for a pulled back.

You are right, it probably would have been better to head to the doctor, but I am somewhat of an idiot when it comes to clinics or hospitals. I have a very severe phobia of needles like you wouldnt believe. Is it dumb? Of course it is, but it is something I cant seem to get past. I turn solid white, begin shaking, and pass out when I am approached with a needle.

Between that, and the cost of prescription medication, and the time it takes to go to the doc, which pulls me out of the office, it makes medical visits a rare occurance for me.

A point of correction though, I didnt take someone elses medication. What I took was from one of those trial packs. Technically I guess you do need a persciption, but its not a dosed amount directly for a person.

Now I say it isnt a big deal, and I mean its not a big deal to me, but after reading your post, I wonder if its one of those how we were raised issues. I can remember numerous times, my mother or grandmother taking a painkiller for an acute pain issue, and it not being their medication. I guess thats why I never saw much wrong with it.

Yes, as a CDAR, I gave numerous trainings and briefings. This included several to the Group command staff. I never for a second related a perscription abuser to the general practices I was raised under.

T

Wow, I came on here just to read and follow along about the alleged "Captain Coke", but when I saw the several responses about prescription drugs, I felt the need to say something.

Prescription drugs are the second most mis-used or illegally used drug available. Second only to marijuana. Beats Heroin, Coke, and crystal meth.

And on the list of what prescription drugs are abused or used illegally, narcotic pain killers is first, and muscle relaxers are second. With whatever drug that was used illegally for the "pulled back", more than likely there was at least some level of a muscle relaxer in it.

You understand that what you did isn't just "technically illegal", its totally illegal. If I'm not mistaken(and I'm sure someone on here with more knowledge of this will correct me if I'm wrong), its a felony. And to compound that, the family member thats apparently just taking these free vendor samples out of the doctors office where they work is committing at least 2 more felonies, stealing a prescription medication, and then dispensing said prescription medication without a prescription.

Aside from jail time or at least a criminal record the family member doing this could lose their professional license, as could the Doctor whose office that family member works at. And maybe go to jail.

Not many years back one of our tenants was a dental hygenist. Long story short she got addicted to prescription pain killers after being prescibed them for a skiing accident. At work she started stealing both the free samples the dentist got AND stealing prescription scripts from the Dentists prescription pads and writing her own scripts.After several firings and getting hired at another dentists office, a couple of arrests with the promised "I'll go to rehab and I promise I won't do this again", about a year ago my wife came across her name in the paper going to the Womans Correctional Facility in Framingham Mass for "5 to 7 years".

Its one thing to mistakenly take a swig of the wrong cough medicine in the middle of the night at "O" dark hundred when yer still 90% asleep, its quite another to first have a medical professional stealing and dispensing prescription medication, and then you; as an adult and full knowing what yer doing is illegal. I'm pretty sure some of the small print on them squibb packs of drugs the pharmacy reps give to doctors free will quite clearly state "ILLEGAL TO DISPENSE WITHOUT PRESCRIPTION", or words to that effect.

When my Father was going thru his lung cancer treatments before he died one of his Doctors liked him and often would give him packs of those free samples. As she was sitting there writing the script for the exact same drug.

I'm not trying to lecture anybody, far be it for me to lecture ANYBODY about substance abuse, I'm an alcoholic that also frequently enjoyed the same bolivian marching powder this Capt also allegedly did, as well as meth, but holy crap, after your blase attitude about this AND reading your profile I was shocked-JRC

Not saying that it is right, but just because someone takes a pill that is not prescribed to them to relieve some immediate pain until they can get to the doctor does not make them a hardcore drug addict.

Granted that is how alot of people get started abusing prescription drugs but there is a huge number of people out there that have done just what was described in the previous posts as a one time thing.

Just my take on things. Seems like there are holier than thou attitudes out there about this.
The Coast Guards policy about prescription drug abuse is deterrent enough for me.

CW

Ummmmm, this seems to be going well. Not quite were I had hoped the discussion would go, but here we are.

First, some of you are putting words in my mouth. I am not sure where you are getting some of these things, but I never said them. I never said anyone stole or took anything from their employer. My family doesnt go around stealing or drug dealing ok?

Second point. I didnt say I knew it was illegal at the time and did it anyway. I said I realize it might be illegal now. At the time, I failed to see how it was any different than going to the cabinet to grab a Tylenol. I dont recall the name of the medication and for all I know, it might not have even been prescription.

The point I was trying to make before I got Shanghaied here, was that there are ways these things can happen, and the member not be aware he or she is doing anything illegal. If the Captain tested positive for Coke, would a medication give a false positive.

T

quote:

Only with this case, it was VERY, VERY clear the members didnt intend to commit an offense.

Mil;
Was 'intent' one of the required elements of the charge? If not, then it is IRRELEVANT.
If you as a person in a middle leadership level as an E-6, saw a mast that was 'unfair,' it was YOUR responsibliity to assist in the appeal process. It can either be for 'unjust' like mine was where the CO stated (even in his endorsement of the appeal) that some of the elements were not met, but he thought I should be punished anyways; or for disproportiate. The seond one rarely wins an appeal, but sometimes it does.

If you have ever taken more than the perscribed dose of an over the counter medicine then you have probly taken an ammount that requires a perscription. 800 mils of tylenol/ibuprophine vs 200 mils is a perscription dose that regualre folks regularly self perscribe for pain relief. I'm twenty percent sure it doesn't make them a criminal. Some of you guys learned how to get banged up pretty good!

Peace,
Dick

quote:

There is nothing fair about the NJP process, and when combined with incompetant COs, the results can be disasterous.

T

I'd have to disagree somewhat on this point. I presided over 237 masts during my tour, so I figure I know from whence I speak. NJP is as fair as the person conducting the mast. It is not a court of law, and the rules of evidence do not apply. There's no need for "beyond a reasonable doubt," as we deal with preponderance of the evidence. Basically, if the NJP authority feels it's more likely than not you committed the offense (i.e., 50.1%), that meets the standard.

Now, if you'd told me to "Shut up and listen" during a mast, I tend to think there'd have been a different outcome.

As far as mast not being the place for a "show," I really have to disagree. While punishment can be a result of mast, there is a rather large component of maintenance of good order and discipline. That's why most masts are open. We like to invite in observers in the hope that they'll say, "Man, I do NOT want to go through that."

I can't speak for "incompetant COs," but out of 237 masts, I never had an appeal that was upheld. Follow the rules, use your best judgment, and things usually turn out right.

Also, if the XO sent up a PIO package that didn't support taking the member to mast, it usually got returned with a little note.

CG

quote:

Also, if the XO sent up a PIO package that didn't support taking the member to mast, it usually got returned with a little note.

Even with that, there are RARE occassions where holding the mast would still be the right thing for good order and discipline. A properly done mast (ie, in accordance with the law & regs) can be an excellent place to set the record straight and dispel all of the scuttlebutt. In the job where I was the Command Chief, it was the COs policy that after the XO put his recomendations down, I would see it, put my notes down seprately and then deliver it to eh CO. (obvioulsy just for enlisted). There were two that I could think of that I recomended by 'disposed of at mast' where it was obvious that the elements were not met and the member could not be punished. See - that is the recomendation: 'disposed of.' That CO held not just 'open masts,' but all hands, in trops at attention masts. One of them got out of control on the scuttlebutt side and needed to have the open, transparent and formal disposition at mast to show that it was investigated properly and fairly handled and that the member did nothing incorrect at all. The other one the member was within a gnats hair of meeting the elements and a point needed to be made, again in an open, transparent and formal manner. In both the CO found that the 51.1% was not meet. In the second one, a little 'come to jesus' discussion was held and administartive corrective action was taken.

As Mr G will tell you, every mast has two distinct portions. The first portion allows the mast holder to hear everything presented and decide if it is 50.1% likely that the member met EVERY element of the charge(s). That determines IF the CO CAN award punishment. The second half is to hear other factors and determine if/what punishment is appropriate.

Every mast, the subject of the mast is authorized to request Judicial Proceedings. At mast not at a mobile or afloat command, every subject has the right to demmand a Judicial Proceeding.

quote:

Originally posted by Mightyz90_93:

quote:

Only with this case, it was VERY, VERY clear the members didnt intend to commit an offense.

Mil;
Was 'intent' one of the required elements of the charge? If not, then it is IRRELEVANT.
If you as a person in a middle leadership level as an E-6, saw a mast that was 'unfair,' it was YOUR responsibliity to assist in the appeal process. It can either be for 'unjust' like mine was where the CO stated (even in his endorsement of the appeal) that some of the elements were not met, but he thought I should be punished anyways; or for disproportiate. The seond one rarely wins an appeal, but sometimes it does.

Heres the case, you decide. Two E6s were stationed on a 110. They request and received approved leave to go snow sking in Lake Tahoe. They flew to San Fran, rented a car, and drove up for a few days. The ship was sailing the Monday they were due to return. On Sunday, a blizzard hit Lake Tahoe, and both members were trapped. The two roads leading in and out of Lake Tahoe were closed.

The members called their XO and told them their situation. They told the XO they would keep trying to find a way down, and to the airport. Over the next 18 hours, both members repeatedly called and gave updates to their XO. They called when the roads were finally opnened. They called when they left, and they called when they reached the airport. The ship sailed the next morning, leaving both members in the air and enroute. Both members were charged with AWOL and missing movement.

As the PIO, I reviewed the forecast, I reviewed the times of the road closure, and its opening. I reviewed the leave chits. I reviewed the phone calls. It was my determination that the members committed no offense because there was significant evidence to suggest that the members made every attempt to make movement.

I submitted my report to the CO, and in it I recommended all charges dropped in lieu of one CG 3307 entry for each member. The CO promptly brought the recommendation back to me, and handed me the forecast for Lake Tahoe. He told me that the members should have known a blizzard was possible, and their lack of planning was not his or the ships fault. He asked me to reconsider.

I reviewed the forecast again, and again, I recommended charges dropped. I have been to Lake Tahoe several times, and snow is always in the forecast up there. The key to me wasnt that it snowed, but that it snowed enough for the roads to close.

In my opinion, the members made every attempt to correct a bad situation. There was absolutly no point in a mast.

Commander Gow

I appreciate what your saying, but I disagree. Like I said, was my response to the CO disrespectfull? Yes it was, but so was her attempts to make me appear dishonest, and her rolling her eyes. Respect with me is a two way street. You give me a little, and Ill give you a ton. That unfortunate incident was primarily based on a misunderstanding, numerous communications failures, and one CO who probably shouldnt have been a CO.

T

T - Roger all on the disagreement. I've run into my share of people who probably shouldn't have been exercising NJP authority, but the regs allow for it. I'm with you 100% on respect, especially at mast. If a young sailor came in looking smart and minding his/her manners, the proceedings were generally more of a learning experience. OTOH, on the occasions where I got Billy Bob Bad Boy And His Traveling Attitude Show, we went from learning to scaring the bejeebers out of. As you said, it's a two-way street. Respect has to be earned, both up and down the chain.

As far as your PIO report goes, I'm not sure I'd have even given out a Page 7. I think the two PO1s and I might have had a little chat about the wisdom of such an excursion, and as long as they didn't miss movement, that would have been the end of that. I was known as being fairly hardcore, and there's no way I would have checkered somebody's record over that.

Of course, that's just my .02

CG

Article 86—Absence without leave
a. Text of statute. Any member of the armed
forces who, without authority—
(1) fails to go to his appointed place of duty at
the time prescribed;
(2) goes from that place; or
(3) absents himself or remains absent from his
unit, organization, or place of duty at which he is
required to be at the time prescribed; shall be
punished as a court-martial may direct.
b. Elements.
(1) Failure to go to appointed place of duty.(This element is met)

(a) That a certain authority appointed a certain
time and place of duty for the accused; (This element is met)
(b) That the accused knew of that time and
place; and (This element is met)

(c) That the accused, without authority, failed
to go to the appointed place of duty at the time
prescribed. (This element is met)

All elements of Article 86(1) are met

Note the following comment: (3) Intent. Specific intent is not an element of
unauthorized absence. Specific intent is an element for certain aggravated unauthorized absences. [B]



11. Article 87—Missing movement
a. Text of statute.
A n y p e r s o n s u b j e c t t o t h i s c h a p t e r w h o
through neglect or design misses the movement of
a ship, aircraft, or unit with which he is required
in the course of duty to move shall be punished
as a court-martial may direct.
b. Elements.
(1) That the accused was required in the course
of duty to move with a ship, aircraft or unit; [B](This element is met)

( 2 ) T h a t t h e a c c u s e d k n e w o f t h e p r o s p e c t i v e
movement of the ship, aircraft or unit; (This element is met)

(3) That the accused missed the movement of the
ship, aircraft or unit; and (This element is met)

( 4 ) T h a t t h e a c c u s e d m i s s e d t h e m o v e m e n t through design or neglect [B] see below [B]

[B] Here is the defintion of neglect:
( 4 ) N e g l e c t . “ N e g l e c t ” m e a n s t h e o m i s s i o n t o
take such measures as are appropriate under the circumstances
to assure presence with a ship, aircraft,
or unit at the time of a scheduled movement, or
doing some act without giving attention to its probable
consequences in connection with the prospective
movement, such as a departure from the vicinity of
t h e p r o s p e c t i v e m o v e m e n t t o s u c h a d i s t a n c e a s
would make it likely that one could not return in
time for the movement.

That is a judgement cal the CO has the right to make one way or the other. I would never go out of town in the mountains to get back the day before sailing.



So, yes, this absoloutely 100% shold have been disposed of at mast. At least one of the articles had all of the elements met.

Now, depending on other factors, including those in mitigation or extenuation, it may have been appropriate for the CO to decide not to impose punishment. If he decides that, it is like the mast never happened.

quote:

Originally posted by clgow:
T - Roger all on the disagreement. I've run into my share of people who probably shouldn't have been exercising NJP authority, but the regs allow for it. I'm with you 100% on respect, especially at mast. If a young sailor came in looking smart and minding his/her manners, the proceedings were generally more of a learning experience. OTOH, on the occasions where I got Billy Bob Bad Boy And His Traveling Attitude Show, we went from learning to scaring the bejeebers out of. As you said, it's a two-way street. Respect has to be earned, both up and down the chain.

As far as your PIO report goes, I'm not sure I'd have even given out a Page 7. I think the two PO1s and I might have had a little chat about the wisdom of such an excursion, and as long as they didn't miss movement, that would have been the end of that. I was known as being fairly hardcore, and there's no way I would have checkered somebody's record over that.

Of course, that's just my .02

CG

Commander

From what you just wrote, I would have no problem what so ever working for you. I just wish there were more like you. "Hardcore" or not.

T

I bet the lifts were running and the skiing was awesome! There's always going to be hard asses and what comes around goes around, instant karma's going to get you!

Seems like the people that approved the leave chit should have had a discussion with the members prior to them taking the leave. It's much easier to do the whole "I told you so" routine if you ACTUALLY told them so. As a supervisor, we need to actually read these request chits and give our two cents ahead of time. If I saw a chit that had the guy returning the day of movement, I probably would have had the member adjust the dates to get back earlier. Easier said in hindsight though.

Master Chief

You are correct, the elements of the offense were met, but three elements were not.

The first is "compassion" for your crew. DO you really care, or are you just there as a stopping point to advance your career. Do you understand that everyone is working with you, and not for you.

The second is "empathy" to understand you were there once.

The third is "common sense" to understand that on a 110, no one has time for these trival games. You can and will loose respect for wasting everyones time to meet a personal mast quota.

T