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Something Wicked This Way Comes
Picture of militia1
Posted
quote:
Coast Guard Admin Courts Stacked
Associated Press | June 25, 2007

BALTIMORE - Decisions by judges in the Coast Guard's administrative court system almost always favor the agency over civilian mariners, according to a newspaper's review of court records and other documents.

One former judge testified that judges were pressured to side with the Coast Guard, The Sun of Baltimore reported Sunday.

The agency's administrative court system handles charges against tugboat captains, engineers, charter fishermen and others who need licenses or other documents from the Coast Guard to work. The harshest penalty in the system is revocation of those credentials.

Mariners have won just 14 cases out of more than 6,300 charges filed by Coast Guard investigators since 1999, when the agency restructured its judicial system to broaden defendant's rights, the paper said it found through a computer analysis of court records.

In a sworn statement, Judge Jeffie J. Massey has testified that Chief Judge Joseph N. Ingolia told her to always rule in the Coast Guard's favor, and she said she came under intense pressure when she did not, the newspaper said.

"I was specifically told (by Ingolia) that I should always rule for the Coast Guard," Massey said. "He said, 'The Coast Guard are out there keeping our seas safe and we have to do everything we can to support them. They know when to bring these cases and we're just supposed to help them.'"

Ingolia and others in the Baltimore-based Coast Guard administrative law office declined to comment on the advice of the U.S. attorney's office in Louisiana, which is representing them in lawsuits saying that judicial instructions are illegal rule making and obstruction of justice.

The Sun said two internal memos it obtained showed that Ingolia issued private instructions telling other judges how to rule.

Massey, an experienced judge who has held similar positions in other agencies, retired this year.

Ingolia was defended by another former Coast Guard judge, James Lawson, who said the chief judge never coerced him.

"I always found everyone in Baltimore to be courteous and professional," Lawson said. "They were there to help, not to tell me what to do."


One has to wonder if some in the CG have forgotton who they work for. While I dont believe every office in the CG needs to be releived of command, I think its apparent that some should.

Any thoughts?

T
 
Posts: 4977 | Registered: Sun 08 July 2001Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
Basic Training
Picture of M_A_Wood
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Used to be a time when a Coastie's money wasn't any good in a bar frequented by commercial fishermen, work boat sailors, merchant seamen.

This and overly agressive LE tactics are two reasons that the service is not too popular with the "customer" any more.

At the risk of getting shot here, too many in the Coast Guard see the service as an elite organization that exists for its own purposes and their own career growth. How many times have we heard the comment, "screw the civilians"?

As Tony alludes to, some forget who pays the salaries and bills for the Coast Guard budget.

My 2 cents.

mw
 
Posts: 117 | Registered: Sat 23 June 2007Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
Picture of Ex_CG_GM
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quote:
As Tony alludes to, some forget who pays the salaries and bills for the Coast Guard budget.

My 2 cents.

mw


I'll throw in my two cents to go along with Mark.
 
Posts: 6677 | Registered: Fri 09 February 2001Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
KPS
Picture of ironmandv33
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I'm gonna chime in as an IO. What this report doesn't show is that a vast majority of our S&R cases are drug related, meaning the mariner took a drug test and failed said test.

How is a mariner supposed to win that case? As long as everyone in the chain of custody (sample tech, lab, and doctor) do their job the mariner doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Should we be "losing" these cases?

Another point not brought up is that the Coast Guard is the only agency that uses another agency (NTSB) to review our cases. If a mariner wants to appeal a decision it goes to the COMDT. If the mariner then wants to appeal that decision it does to NTSB, not the federal court system. If a airline pilot wants to appeal an FAA decision they don't get to go to the NTSB.

I'd also like to know how many cases the FAA "loses".
 
Posts: 125 | Registered: Wed 30 March 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
Picture of Ex_CG_GM
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quote:
Mariners have won just 14 cases out of more than 6,300 charges filed by Coast Guard investigators since 1999,


14 out of 6,300.....I don't have a calculator handy but that is less than 1/4 of 1%.

So when you say "vast majority" do you think it is actually 99.9975%?
 
Posts: 6677 | Registered: Fri 09 February 2001Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
Member
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Possibly a little more perspective to the numbers than what the story provides. I'm hoping there is more to follow in the days to come.....


http://cgchiefs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1076
 
Posts: 1798 | Registered: Sat 12 January 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
10 day suspension for disruptive postings. TOS Section 6(i). 10/8/08
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quote:
I'd also like to know how many cases the FAA "loses".


A lot of it hinges on whether or not the pilot dies.
 
Posts: 9446 | Registered: Thu 11 July 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
Experienced Member
Picture of Mightyz90_93
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Of course this couldn't be that we take pride in only presenting cases to the ALJ when we have clear and concise evidence? It couldn't be that we often use other administrative measures in lesser cases? It couldn't be that we are just plain RIGHT, could it?

If a judge got the pressure described and did not have the virtue to stand up to it, then they should never have been a judge in the first place!

I got to waive multiple BS flags here!
 
Posts: 4297 | Registered: Sun 15 June 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
Basic Training
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I would have to agree, how many Coasties do you see do things just for the heck of it. We are known for our ability to do the job correctly, not trying to offend any of the other agencies here, but I think we, as Coasties, are held to a higher standard of making a case and doing things right the first time.
 
Posts: 14 | Registered: Tue 14 November 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
Hoof Hearted
Ice Melted
Picture of Mastersmate
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[quote]In a sworn statement, Judge Jeffie J. Massey has testified that Chief Judge Joseph N. Ingolia told her to always rule in the Coast Guard's favor, and she said she came under intense pressure when she did not, the newspaper said.

"I was specifically told (by Ingolia) that I should always rule for the Coast Guard," Massey said. "He said, 'The Coast Guard are out there keeping our seas safe and we have to do everything we can to support them. They know when to bring these cases and we're just supposed to help them.'"

Ingolia and others in the Baltimore-based Coast Guard administrative law office declined to comment on the advice of the U.S. attorney's office in Louisiana, which is representing them in lawsuits saying that judicial instructions are illegal rule making and obstruction of justice.

The Sun said two internal memos it obtained showed that Ingolia issued private instructions telling other judges how to rule.[/quote]

_________________________________________

Trust me, I'm from the Coast Guard Roll Eyes

Sorry, I see this as another notch in the loss of credibility in this realm, that seems to be growing every year.

I know of one incident with a mariner friend that is being dealt with strictly by the "XXx has pissed me off, and will never work again" method. Good Old boys at HQ networking, screw procedure or due process.

Nothing more on that because it is on going.
 
Posts: 2244 | Registered: Wed 14 June 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
Member
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let's see the memos.........

also, it's 6300 charges, not cases....when drugs are involved most mariners take the cure instead of arguing it in a courtroom. the numbers should be broken down to show how many "charges" actually went to court, and how many handed in their license in for a plea bargain.
 
Posts: 2338 | Registered: Fri 26 November 2004Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
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the sun article:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-te.jud...l=bal-home-headlines

much more info then in the AP snippet.....
 
Posts: 2338 | Registered: Fri 26 November 2004Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
Hoof Hearted
Ice Melted
Picture of Mastersmate
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First quick read through of the Baltimore Sun article is enough to get your head shaking.
 
Posts: 2244 | Registered: Wed 14 June 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
Member
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i think they should have explained the process a bit more.....defining an administrative hearing as opposed to a court case.....some rules do not apply......

This message has been edited. Last edited by: SacraficialMetal,
 
Posts: 2338 | Registered: Fri 26 November 2004Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
<ThadsBoy>
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by M_A_Wood:
Used to be a time when a Coastie's money wasn't any good in a bar frequented by commercial fishermen, work boat sailors, merchant seamen.

This and overly agressive LE tactics are two reasons that the service is not too popular with the "customer" any more.

At the risk of getting shot here, too many in the Coast Guard see the service as an elite organization that exists for its own purposes and their own career growth. How many times have we heard the comment, "screw the civilians"?

As Tony alludes to, some forget who pays the salaries and bills for the Coast Guard budget.

My 2 cents.

mw


************************

Mark,

I wonder if this relates to the article about "Industry" and some in Congress trying to push for removing "maritime licensing and marine safety" responsibilities from the Coast Guard?

Perhaps this is inevitable as the service becomes more and more focused on its Homeland Security missions. From what I've been told the post 9-11 law states that its "legacy missions" are such as marine safety.

Sincerely, Thads Boy
 
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Picture of Fishstyx
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Im rather saddened that some are so quick to judge based on some cherry picked statistics presented to support a news article's conclusions. As Coasties (both retired and active), I'd frigure most should know better than that!

To expand on the numbers, during that same time fram, the CG investigated approximately 130k incidents. So that means we brought less than .5% of investigations to hearings. The bottom line, based on our case load and the limited resources of the AJL corp the vast majority of cases brought forward are easy convictions.

With this issue, I subscribe to the the theory of Occam's Razor: "All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one."

So, what's simpler, a conspiratorial movement by the AJL corp to win cases or the CG only brings cases to hearing they know they could win based off lack of resources?

I'm by no means saying the system is perfect just disappointed that so many are so quick to hang the service out to dry.
 
Posts: 2521 | Registered: Fri 28 May 2004Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
Member
Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fishstyx:
Im rather saddened that some are so quick to judge based on some cherry picked statistics presented to support a news article's conclusions. As Coasties (both retired and active), I'd frigure most should know better than that!

To expand on the numbers, during that same time fram, the CG investigated approximately 130k incidents. So that means we brought less than .5% of investigations to hearings. The bottom line, based on our case load and the limited resources of the AJL corp the vast majority of cases brought forward are easy convictions.

With this issue, I subscribe to the the theory of Occam's Razor: "All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one."

So, what's simpler, a conspiratorial movement by the AJL corp to win cases or the CG only brings cases to hearing they know they could win based off lack of resources?

I'm by no means saying the system is perfect just disappointed that so many are so quick to hang the service out to dry.


I was wondering if you would follow-up my post! Cool

I tend to agree with you about the article....what's the rest of the story??
 
Posts: 1798 | Registered: Sat 12 January 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
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It seems to me (if it is true) that it isn't about the numbers so much as it is about the fact that a judge was pressured to take one side of the cases.

I'd like to think that judges are impartial.
 
Posts: 6677 | Registered: Fri 09 February 2001Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
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Picture of Nobodyaskedmebut
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quote:
Originally posted by Ex_CG_GM:
It seems to me (if it is true) that it isn't about the numbers so much as it is about the fact that a judge was pressured to take one side of the cases.

I'd like to think that judges are impartial.


I thought that too until the Chief (now) Judge of the 16th Circuit, State of Florida (Monroe County) was assigned my divorce - 6 years later I still pay the equivilent of my entire retired pay (1/2 under former spouse protection act and $1200+ a month in alimony) to an ex-wife who along with her first attorney, lied under oath, hid financial status from the court, and generally got every motion filed approved. The same judge who I asked to recuse herself for bias. During the first 2 years I was retired I had been sentenced 4 times to the Monroe County Jail for contempt of court - 6 months at a time. Although I never spent a day in jail the judge still shows bias to me...
 
Posts: 1615 | Registered: Thu 23 May 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
Member
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quote:
Originally posted by Nobodyaskedmebut:
I thought that too until the Chief (now) Judge of the 16th Circuit, State of Florida (Monroe County) was assigned my divorce - 6 years later I still pay the equivilent of my entire retired pay (1/2 under former spouse protection act and $1200+ a month in alimony) to an ex-wife who along with her first attorney, lied under oath, hid financial status from the court, and generally got every motion filed approved. The same judge who I asked to recuse herself for bias. During the first 2 years I was retired I had been sentenced 4 times to the Monroe County Jail for contempt of court - 6 months at a time. Although I never spent a day in jail the judge still shows bias to me...


I don't suppose the FRA or any other organization could help?? Frown
 
Posts: 1798 | Registered: Sat 12 January 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete Message
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