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Military.com Forums Hot Topics & Current Events Point-Counterpoint Examples of ID law disenfranchisement? How about 12 NUNS…|
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Experianced Member |
No one chipping away at anything. AND we're NOT getting picky. Simply showing a photo ID does NOT change your votng status. Furthermore, the govt is MANDATING that ID are show for OTHER transactions. IE: booze, cigs, firearms, and certain high dollar financial transactions. SO again what's showing an ID for this ONE additional "tansaction" such a BURDEN? |
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I'd rather be knitting. |
But voting is not commercial, and if a lawful resident cannot produce photo ID, they cannot vote at the polls, and election day is too late to arrange for an absentee ballot. It is selecting the able-bodied and well-connected as voters, and rejecting those like my grandmother's friends that I object to.
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Experianced Member |
How able bodied or well connected do you need to be to get a PHOTO ID? If you can make it to the voting station, you should be able to go to the local DMV (or wherever other location ) to get an ID. Furhtermore, these laws ARE not enacted at the last minute, and there is PLENTY of notice. |
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I'd rather be knitting. |
Polling stations are often located in residential neighborhoods, whereas a DMV need not be. It's usually quite possible in many cities to walk to a polling place, but the closest DMV may even be outside the city, as is so from where I sit at the moment. And the law may be enacted well before election day, but if you're not notified, you'd only find out at the polls. I check voting requirements before I vote, but I've internet access and a fondness for and ability to get to the library. Not everyone has that. |
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Member |
I always love to hear the Dems argue the Voter ID issue and frequently claim that voter fraud is not occuring. Just a little cut and paste from an article on this issue with some rather interesting data. Sure don't want to disenfranchise these felons and dead people now do we?
Stunning Reality of Voter Fraud Across the Country One of the most recent well-publicized voter fraud cases occurred in the Washington State governor’s race in November 2004 in which Democrat Christine Gregoire allegedly defeated Republican Dino Rossi by 129 votes after weeks of vote counting. The Washington State Superior Court found that 1,400 felons voted illegally, along with illegal votes cast by 53 dead people, two non-citizens and 27 double votes. Since Washington State does not have party voter registration, there was no way of proving exactly how they voted, so the judge ruled there was not enough proof to void the election. In one of the few cases in which an election was overturned because of voter fraud, the Tennessee State Senate voided the results of a September 2005 special state senate election in which Democrat Ophelia Ford was initially elected over Republican Terry Roland by 13 votes. The results were thrown out on a 26-to-six bi-partisan vote after allegations of election wrongdoing that included voting by felons and nonresidents of the district as well as three ballots cast by dead voters in one polling place according to the Knoxville News. In a case of voter fraud involving a Texas U.S. House seat, the San Antonio Express-News said in 2004 after Henry Cuellar won by only 58 votes: “We may never know if illegal votes propelled Laredo lawyer Henry Cuellar to victory in the 28th Congressional District Democratic primary. …On Tuesday, a district judge ruled that U.S. Rep. Ciro Rodriguez cannot introduce evidence alleging ballot fraud and the illegal casting of votes.” This was after the newspaper reported that primary voters in almost two dozen residences in one Cuellar stronghold (Webb County) had moved out of the district and had not changed their voter-registration address. In another case concerning a U.S. House seat in which voter fraud may have influenced the result, California Republican Congressman Bob Dornan was defeated by Democrat Loretta Sanchez in an upset, by the narrow margin of 984 votes in 1996. Dornan charged that Sanchez’s margin came from non-citizens, and an investigation by the House of Representatives found that 547 non-citizens had voted in the election, but not enough to void the election. Some believe that far more non-citizens who were not detected actually voted. John Fund, in his book Stealing Elections: How Voter Fraud Threatens Our Democracy, says that an INS investigation in 1996 into alleged Motor Voter fraud in California’s 46th District revealed that “4,023 illegal voters possibly cast ballots in the disputed election between Republican Robert Dornan and Democrat Loretta Sanchez.” Another serious case of alleged voter fraud involved a U.S. Senate seat. Louisiana Republican Woody Jenkins filed charges of voter fraud in 1996 before the Senate Rules Committee after he lost to Democrat Mary Landrieu by 5,788 votes. According to the Almanac of American Politics, Jenkins “presented affidavits showing that more votes were counted in many New Orleans precincts than the number of voters who signed in, and testimony of campaign operatives, apparently from [Democratic Mayor Marc] Morial’s L.I.F.E. organization, ferrying people around to vote in one precinct after another.” In April 1997, the Rules Committee agreed, by a nine-to-seven party-line vote, to broaden the investigation. By June, however, committee Democrats were complaining that the inquiry had failed to produce hard evidence of fraud and withdrew from the probe. Committee Chairman John Warner (R.-Va.) proceeded to hold closed field hearings in New Orleans without the consent of ranking Democratic member Wendell Ford (Ky.), and after the Justice Department pulled its agents off the investigation, the hearings produced little substantive testimony regarding the alleged improprieties by Morial’s political machine and state Democrats came forward with allegations that Jenkins’ investigators had engaged in witness-tampering. Senate Republicans forged ahead with the election probe in September, belittling Democratic attempts to block committee meetings using parliamentarian tactics. By October, however, the Rules Committee voted unanimously to end the inquiry. While concluding that “isolated instances” of voter fraud did occur, Warner said there was no evidence to prove that there was a “widespread effort to illegally affect the outcome of this election,” or that Landrieu had any involvement in the violation of election laws. Your right to vote will be at stake when the Supreme Court decides this case next year. It is now endangered unless there are adequate safeguards against voter fraud such as Indiana’s voter ID law. As former Minnesota Secretary of State Mary Kiffmeyer warned recently, “In this day of illegals’ potentially gaining access to the driver’s license system, the verification of citizenship and accuracy of the connection of the ID card to the person voting is only common sense. Anyone who thinks that there is no stealing of votes should go home and next time don’t lock their doors or cars when leaving.” |
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"I love the smell of Brown Water in the morning" |
I don't see that as a valid argument. The requirement for a photo ID is known well in advance of the election. I understand your point and would like to agree, however we live in a different world now. True citizens need to be able to identify themselves. As much as I hate the thought of a National ID card, I don't see any way around it. |
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DEAD MEAT - Love, Fate |
but Sea said that fraud can't happen in CA Forget the dog, Beware of Owner |
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Experienced Member |
Only a bona fide ideological weenie would advocate that having appropriate and valid photo ID to partake of one of our most sacred rights of citizenship is a "burden." Nevertheless, the legal threshold is not whether or not the requirement is a "burden," but rather whether or not the requirement is an "UNDUE" burden. So it is time for all the ideological weenies to quit their ridiculous blathering. |
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"Strength and Pressure" |
Provisions were made for the nuns to vote, but they didn't take advantage of them. When I find a link to it, I will post it.
Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous, but like the sea it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect. |
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I like to fight fire... with gasoline...  |
If you believe my stance on Voter ID laws has anything to do with partisan politics, you haven’t been paying attention. |
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Experienced Member |
I have no fundamental problem with same day voter registration ... as long as the documentation requirements are met and as long as it is recognized that if too many people avail themselves of it, they may not get same day service and their votes will be provisional.
I have no clear preference ... there are arguments for and against for each. It is really a party call and I note that CA splits - Republicans closed; Democrats semi-closed. If I were really pushed, I guess I lean a little towards a closed primary simply because it would encourage indpendents/non-aligned to either choose an existing party or (preferably) form a new party.
I support VVPATs and either more secure high tech polling devices or (preferably IMHO) a return to paper ballots with either a manual or scanner count. While, to the best of my knowledge, no election has been proved to have been thrown by either the absence of a VVPAT or by tampering/hacking, the potential certainly exists and should be addressed. This message has been edited. Last edited by: Jade_Gate, |
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I like to fight fire... with gasoline... |
Excellent. Not completely right. California is a “modified open primary” state. The parties decide whether or not to allow Decline to State voters to vote in their primary. During the Presidential Primary only the Democratic Party and American Independent Party allowed DTS voters to vote in their Primary. We are about to have a Statewide Primary in which the Republicans, in addition to the other two mentioned, are allowing DTS voters to vote. How do you know? If the machine does not create a “paper trail” there is simply no way of knowing if the votes are recorded properly. While no election may have been “thrown” by the absence of VVPATs (kind of like there is no election thrown because of voter ID fraud), many have incorrectly recorded the votes. I mentioned that I love our voting machines. They have been 100% accurate during every canvass. They are MORE accurate than optical scanners and manual counting by humans. |
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Experianced Member |
Are you kidding US ??? Your WHOLE thread has been nothing but an accusation that the Republicans are using this for voter supression! I STILL have YET seen one liberal satisfactorily answer my question in responce .... IF we show it for other things with out thinking it's a problem, then why this addtional time a such burden ???? |
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Experienced Member |
You don't. That is why I used the words "no election has been proved to have been thrown" ... operative word "proved" ... and why I support fully VVPATs and, to the extent possible, tamperproof voting mechanisms. It is my position that our elections are sufficiently important that we should do everything reasonably possible to remove any doubt of the legitimacy of the result ... whether we are referring to the creation of an audit trail, ensuring the legitimacy of the mechanism for tabulation, or validating the legitimacy of voters themselves. Any illegitimate vote tallied disenfranchises legitimate voters' votes proportionately. The voting process must not only BE fair, open, and accurate ... but PERCEIVED to be fair, open, and accurate by the electorate. Anything less compromises the legitimacy of the results. |
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Peace through air and space Power.... USAF Lifer, retired  |
In most states, or at least mind, if you are a felon you cannot vote... legally.
If you're declared incompetent you cannot vote legally. If you're under age you cannot vote. If you're not registered or not a resident of the state, you cannot vote. We are governed by rules and laws of requirements and behavior, so why is this so hard to bear if it helps to ensure only those who have the right to vote... do vote. As I stated before... Those who reject the idea of a more tamperproof ID card identifying who you are... either have ulterior motives or one of those people who believe that the government is trying to steal their freedom and rights. Well, like a driver's license allows you to drive, the right to vote is also governed by your behavior and its only purpose is to ensure who you are and if you have the right to cast that ballot. Being intelligent and full of sympathy for others is a wonderful thing, but must be accompanied with a little common sense. A Society without laws and rules of behavior to regulate... Is a union that will not survive. Common sense 101 |
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Military.com Forums Hot Topics & Current Events Point-Counterpoint Examples of ID law disenfranchisement? How about 12 NUNS…
