"If you look at the victories and failures of the civil rights movement and its litigation strategy in the court. I think where it succeeded was to invest formal rights in previously dispossessed people, so that now I would have the right to vote. I would now be able to sit at the lunch counter and order as long as I could pay for it I’d be o.k. But, the Supreme Court never ventured into the issues of redistribution of wealth, and of more basic issues such as political and economic justice in society.
To that extent, as radical as I think people try to characterize the Warren Court, it wasn’t that radical. It didn’t break free from the essential constraints that were placed by the founding fathers in the Constitution, at least as its been interpreted and Warren Court interpreted in the same way, that generally the Constitution is a charter of negative liberties. Says what the states can’t do to you. Says what the Federal government can’t do to you, but doesn’t say what the Federal government or State government must do on your behalf, and that hasn’t shifted and one of the, I think, tragedies of the civil rights movement was, um, because the civil rights movement became so court focused I think there was a tendency to lose track of the political and community organizing and activities on the ground that are able to put together the actual coalition of powers through which you bring about redistributive change. In some ways we still suffer from that. …
I’m not optimistic about bringing about major redistributive change through the courts. You know, the institution just isn’t structured that way."

-President Obama

"...the actual coalition of powers through which you bring about redistributive change."

A coalition of powers....maybe SEIU, ACORN, TIDES, The APOLLO Alliance that wrote the stimulus bill that no one read...

Time to come out of the closet, you reds on the left...the only person that you're fooling is yourself....maybe...the rest of us know exactly what's going on...

There was a day...I think it was Thursday...that I thought you were looking for debate.

Not sure what happened since, but now you just seem to be looking for a name-calling poop-throwing hatefest.

What's up with that?

quote:

Originally posted by psychoABN:
"If you look at the victories and failures of the civil rights movement and its litigation strategy in the court. I think where it succeeded was to invest formal rights in previously dispossessed people, so that now I would have the right to vote. I would now be able to sit at the lunch counter and order as long as I could pay for it I’d be o.k. But, the Supreme Court never ventured into the issues of redistribution of wealth, and of more basic issues such as political and economic justice in society.
To that extent, as radical as I think people try to characterize the Warren Court, it wasn’t that radical. It didn’t break free from the essential constraints that were placed by the founding fathers in the Constitution, at least as its been interpreted and Warren Court interpreted in the same way, that generally the Constitution is a charter of negative liberties. Says what the states can’t do to you. Says what the Federal government can’t do to you, but doesn’t say what the Federal government or State government must do on your behalf, and that hasn’t shifted and one of the, I think, tragedies of the civil rights movement was, um, because the civil rights movement became so court focused I think there was a tendency to lose track of the political and community organizing and activities on the ground that are able to put together the actual coalition of powers through which you bring about redistributive change. In some ways we still suffer from that. …
I’m not optimistic about bringing about major redistributive change through the courts. You know, the institution just isn’t structured that way."

-President Obama

"...the actual coalition of powers through which you bring about redistributive change."

A coalition of powers....maybe SEIU, ACORN, TIDES, The APOLLO Alliance that wrote the stimulus bill that no one read...

Time to come out of the closet, you reds on the left...the only person that you're fooling is yourself....maybe...the rest of us know exactly what's going on...

Read this...extraction
FEDERALIST No. 34

The Same Subject Continued
(Concerning the General Power of Taxation)
From the New York Packet.
Friday, January 4, 1788.

HAMILTON

In framing a government for posterity as well as ourselves, we
ought, in those provisions which are designed to be permanent, to
calculate, not on temporary, but on permanent causes of expense. If
this principle be a just one our attention would be directed to a
provision in favor of the State governments for an annual sum of
about two hundred thousand pounds; while the exigencies of the
Union could be susceptible of no limits, even in imagination. In
this view of the subject, by what logic can it be maintained that
the local governments ought to command, in perpetuity, an EXCLUSIVE
source of revenue for any sum beyond the extent of two hundred
thousand pounds? To extend its power further, in EXCLUSION of the
authority of the Union, would be to take the resources of the
community out of those hands which stood in need of them for the
public welfare, in order to put them into other hands which could
have no just or proper occasion for them.
Suppose, then, the convention had been inclined to proceed upon
the principle of a repartition of the objects of revenue, between
the Union and its members, in PROPORTION to their comparative
necessities; what particular fund could have been selected for the
use of the States, that would not either have been too much or too
little too little for their present, too much for their future
wants? As to the line of separation between external and internal
taxes, this would leave to the States, at a rough computation, the
command of two thirds of the resources of the community to defray
from a tenth to a twentieth part of its expenses; and to the Union,
one third of the resources of the community, to defray from nine
tenths to nineteen twentieths of its expenses. If we desert this
boundary and content ourselves with leaving to the States an
exclusive power of taxing houses and lands, there would still be a
great disproportion between the MEANS and the END; the possession
of one third of the resources of the community to supply, at most,
one tenth of its wants. If any fund could have been selected and
appropriated, equal to and not greater than the object, it would
have been inadequate to the discharge of the existing debts of the
particular States, and would have left them dependent on the Union
for a provision for this purpose.
The preceding train of observation will justify the position
which has been elsewhere laid down, that ``A CONCURRENT JURISDICTION
in the article of taxation was the only admissible substitute for an
entire subordination, in respect to this branch of power, of State
authority to that of the Union.'' Any separation of the objects of
revenue that could have been fallen upon, would have amounted to a
sacrifice of the great INTERESTS of the Union to the POWER of the
individual States. The convention thought the concurrent
jurisdiction preferable to that subordination; and it is evident
that it has at least the merit of reconciling an indefinite
constitutional power of taxation in the Federal government with an
adequate and independent power in the States to provide for their
own necessities. There remain a few other lights, in which this
important subject of taxation will claim a further consideration.
PUBLIUS.

quote:

Originally posted by Yooper_tj:
There was a day...I think it was Thursday...that I thought you were looking for debate.

Not sure what happened since, but now you just seem to be looking for a name-calling poop-throwing hatefest.

What's up with that?

Well, I guess I decided to start giving some back....I mean, for just one example, there's the thread that accuses the "right" of being a bunch of murderous extremist thugs...all due to an unsolved murder.
For all of the times I've been called a racist, bigot, Nazi, and I could go on and on...

Enough is enough. Respect given will be in proportion to that which is received...

I mean, what's up....isn't what's good enough for the goose, good enough for the gander...

The quote above....If you search...you can hear those exact words spoken by President Obama himself....

You can't convince me a $hit sandwich is peanut butter just because it's brown...and you can't convince me that a Socialist/Communist is just a Democrat because they say so...

quote:

Originally posted by psychoABN:

quote:

Originally posted by Yooper_tj:
There was a day...I think it was Thursday...that I thought you were looking for debate.

Not sure what happened since, but now you just seem to be looking for a name-calling poop-throwing hatefest.

What's up with that?

Well, I guess I decided to start giving some back....I mean, for just one example, there's the thread that accuses the "right" of being a bunch of murderous extremist thugs...all due to an unsolved murder.
For all of the times I've been called a racist, bigot, Nazi, and I could go on and on...

Enough is enough. Respect given will be in proportion to that which is received...

I mean, what's up....isn't what's good enough for the goose, good enough for the gander...

The quote above....If you search...you can hear those exact words spoken by President Obama himself....

You can't convince me a $hit sandwich is peanut butter just because it's brown...and you can't convince me that a Socialist/Communist is just a Democrat because they say so...

I've been know to launch a retaliatory strike here, but I try to minimize collateral damage. Opening a thread with that title and summarizing with this little gem:

quote:

Time to come out of the closet, you reds on the left...the only person that you're fooling is yourself....maybe...the rest of us know exactly what's going on...

That's carpet bombing. You're better than that.

Let's don't confuse respect with common courtesy---that's a career-ender in the Army I joined.

To the topic:

I like the description of the constitution as a charter of negative liberties when applied to the government.

The redistribution in the context of a community organizer often means the redistribution of tax dollars as a societal benefit--point of the exercise of taxation, after all--so that the millions who work at Wal-Mart receive a reasonable share of things like infrastructure and education, the benefits of research and implementation of public health programs like immunizations and food safety, and 'civic wealth' like public parks.

Public transportation, for instance, benefits all by getting the working poor to their menial jobs that big corporations need done. That generates an income to feed a family with children who need safe, decent schools that aren't breeding grounds for TB.

I see that our troops are now being issued hand-sanitizer and basic instruction about coughing--the spread of aerially transmittable disease.

You think demanding that same inexpensive but effective protocol in a public school in a poor neighborhood makes us commmies?

quote:

Originally posted by Yooper_tj:

quote:

Originally posted by psychoABN:

quote:

Originally posted by Yooper_tj:
There was a day...I think it was Thursday...that I thought you were looking for debate.

Not sure what happened since, but now you just seem to be looking for a name-calling poop-throwing hatefest.

What's up with that?

Well, I guess I decided to start giving some back....I mean, for just one example, there's the thread that accuses the "right" of being a bunch of murderous extremist thugs...all due to an unsolved murder.
For all of the times I've been called a racist, bigot, Nazi, and I could go on and on...

Enough is enough. Respect given will be in proportion to that which is received...

I mean, what's up....isn't what's good enough for the goose, good enough for the gander...

The quote above....If you search...you can hear those exact words spoken by President Obama himself....

You can't convince me a $hit sandwich is peanut butter just because it's brown...and you can't convince me that a Socialist/Communist is just a Democrat because they say so...

I've been know to launch a retaliatory strike here, but I try to minimize collateral damage. Opening a thread with that title and summarizing with this little gem:

quote:

Time to come out of the closet, you reds on the left...the only person that you're fooling is yourself....maybe...the rest of us know exactly what's going on...

That's carpet bombing. You're better than that.

Let's don't confuse respect with common courtesy---that's a career-ender in the Army I joined.

To the topic:

I like the description of the constitution as a charter of negative liberties when applied to the government.

The redistribution in the context of a community organizer often means the redistribution of tax dollars as a societal benefit--point of the exercise of taxation, after all--so that the millions who work at Wal-Mart receive a reasonable share of things like infrastructure and education, the benefits of research and implementation of public health programs like immunizations and food safety, and 'civic wealth' like public parks.

Public transportation, for instance, benefits all by getting the working poor to their menial jobs that big corporations need done. That generates an income to feed a family with children who need safe, decent schools that aren't breeding grounds for TB.

I see that our troops are now being issued hand-sanitizer and basic instruction about coughing--the spread of aerially transmittable disease.

You think demanding that same inexpensive but effective protocol in a public school in a poor neighborhood makes us commmies?

Hey, I said that I'd give as much respect as I get...

If the shoe doesn't fit, don't buy the pair.

They have hand sanitizer at my kids school, as I'm sure they do in most...what does that have to do with wanting to "fundamentally change" the fabric of our nation?

Are you one of those "reds on the left"? If not, then it doesn't apply to you, honestly, i don't think of you that way. But, there are some here that are, and they post that way...that was for them...gloves are off...

quote:

Originally posted by Yooper_tj:

quote:

Originally posted by psychoABN:

quote:

Originally posted by Yooper_tj:
There was a day...I think it was Thursday...that I thought you were looking for debate.

Not sure what happened since, but now you just seem to be looking for a name-calling poop-throwing hatefest.

What's up with that?

Well, I guess I decided to start giving some back....I mean, for just one example, there's the thread that accuses the "right" of being a bunch of murderous extremist thugs...all due to an unsolved murder.
For all of the times I've been called a racist, bigot, Nazi, and I could go on and on...

Enough is enough. Respect given will be in proportion to that which is received...

I mean, what's up....isn't what's good enough for the goose, good enough for the gander...

The quote above....If you search...you can hear those exact words spoken by President Obama himself....

You can't convince me a $hit sandwich is peanut butter just because it's brown...and you can't convince me that a Socialist/Communist is just a Democrat because they say so...

I've been know to launch a retaliatory strike here, but I try to minimize collateral damage. Opening a thread with that title and summarizing with this little gem:

quote:

Time to come out of the closet, you reds on the left...the only person that you're fooling is yourself....maybe...the rest of us know exactly what's going on...

That's carpet bombing. You're better than that.

Let's don't confuse respect with common courtesy---that's a career-ender in the Army I joined.

To the topic:

I like the description of the constitution as a charter of negative liberties when applied to the government.

The redistribution in the context of a community organizer often means the redistribution of tax dollars as a societal benefit--point of the exercise of taxation, after all--so that the millions who work at Wal-Mart receive a reasonable share of things like infrastructure and education, the benefits of research and implementation of public health programs like immunizations and food safety, and 'civic wealth' like public parks.

Public transportation, for instance, benefits all by getting the working poor to their menial jobs that big corporations need done. That generates an income to feed a family with children who need safe, decent schools that aren't breeding grounds for TB.

I see that our troops are now being issued hand-sanitizer and basic instruction about coughing--the spread of aerially transmittable disease.

You think demanding that same inexpensive but effective protocol in a public school in a poor neighborhood makes us commmies?

Jefferson, Thomas letter to Joseph Milligan
April 6, 1816
Topic: Taxation

To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.


Jefferson, Thomas letter to James Madison
1784
Topic: Taxation

Taxes should be proportioned to what may be annually spared by the individual.

Paine, Thomas Rights of Man
1791
Topic: Taxation

If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute.

Washington, George Farewell Address
September 19, 1796
Topic: Taxation

No taxes can be devised which are not more or less inconvenient and unpleasant.

Jefferson, Thomas letter to Joseph Milligan
April 6, 1816
Topic: Taxation

For example. If the system be established on basis of Income, and his just proportion on that scale has been already drawn from every one, to step into the field of Consumption, and tax special articles in that, as broadcloth or homespun, wine or whiskey, a coach or a wagon, is doubly taxing the same article. For that portion of Income with which these articles are purchased, having already paid its tax as Income, to pay another taz on the thing it purchased, is paying twice for the same thing; it is an aggrievance on the citizens who use these articles in exoneration of those who do not, contrary to the most sacred of the duties of a government, to do equal and impartial justice to all its citizens.

Story, Joseph Commentaries on the Constitution
1833
Topic: Taxation

In a general sense, all contributions imposed by the government upon individuals for the service of the state, are called taxes, by whatever name they may be known, whether by the name of tribute, tythe, tallage, impost, duty, gabel, custom, subsidy, aid, supply, excise, or other name. This one sounds familar does'nt it?

quote:

Jefferson, Thomas letter to Joseph Milligan
April 6, 1816
Topic: Taxation

For example. If the system be established on basis of Income, and his just proportion on that scale has been already drawn from every one, to step into the field of Consumption, and tax special articles in that, as broadcloth or homespun, wine or whiskey, a coach or a wagon, is doubly taxing the same article. For that portion of Income with which these articles are purchased, having already paid its tax as Income, to pay another tax on the thing it purchased, is paying twice for the same thing; it is an aggrievance on the citizens who use these articles in exoneration of those who do not, contrary to the most sacred of the duties of a government, to do equal and impartial justice to all its citizens.

Hell yeah!!!! That's what I'm talking about!

quote:

This one sounds familar does'nt it?

It all sounds familiar.

I'm not addressing the intake pipe in the revenue stream here. I dare you to tell me that the collection end is going to change anytime soon. Separation of the income tax from apportionment requirements is old news.

quote:

Originally posted by Yooper_tj:

quote:

This one sounds familar does'nt it?

It all sounds familiar.

I'm not addressing the intake pipe in the revenue stream here. I dare you to tell me that the collection end is going to change anytime soon. Separation of the income tax from apportionment requirements is old news.

It is the tax that would be re-distributive. You know what money does to people as well as I do. There has to be a fair balance. The government is getting into everyhting, School Loans exclusively knocking out the lenders, Gm takeover, Chrysler takeover, Banks takeover, giving out money on Cash for Clunkers (tax money from all! I mean what's next...Universal health Care? That is redistrubution of other peoples money (OPM). It is the abuse we are talking about.

The way things are going, the governement is going to be the largest employer in the Nation. That's wayyyyyyy too much power for the government, way too much....

quote:

Originally posted by 14713742:

quote:

Originally posted by Yooper_tj:

quote:

This one sounds familar does'nt it?

It all sounds familiar.

I'm not addressing the intake pipe in the revenue stream here. I dare you to tell me that the collection end is going to change anytime soon. Separation of the income tax from apportionment requirements is old news.

It is the tax that would be re-distributive.

Okay...this seems sort of disconnected. Taxes are a redistribution through a government filter. I get that.

quote:

You know what money does to people as well as I do. There has to be a fair balance.

I have not a clue what you mean by that statement--it sounds like you've changed sides...

quote:

The government is getting into everyhting, School Loans exclusively knocking out the lenders, Gm takeover, Chrysler takeover, Banks takeover, giving out money on Cash for Clunkers (tax money from all! I mean what's next...Universal health Care? That is redistrubution of other peoples money (OPM). It is the abuse we are talking about.

Ahh...you're back.

Bailouts and bank takeovers are a little like invading Iraq--they're fairly predictable reactions to stresses, multiplied by hysteria, and left to be solved by folks who got their jobs not with their knowledge of economics nor the realities of war, but with their ability to convince the panicking public that their interests will be protected.

When the interests diverge...say, a few million people employed by the autoworkers interests diverge from the holders of GM debt or those who oppose such loans on principle...then the inconvenient principles of our sort of republic step in and give authority not to the wisest or best-researched solution, but to some politically expedient compromise.

The amount of compromise required goes back to that directly elected body of people pleasers and their particular ability to form consensus---fifty percent plus one, or sixty votes in the Senate...until they have to answer again to the People.

quote:

Originally posted by Yooper_tj:
There was a day...I think it was Thursday...that I thought you were looking for debate.

Not sure what happened since, but now you just seem to be looking for a name-calling poop-throwing hatefest.

What's up with that?

Ahh! Poop. Who here has not had some personal experience with some poop? I mean, seriously.

quote:

Originally posted by 10tenths:

quote:

Originally posted by Yooper_tj:
There was a day...I think it was Thursday...that I thought you were looking for debate.

Not sure what happened since, but now you just seem to be looking for a name-calling poop-throwing hatefest.

What's up with that?

Ahh! Poop. Who here has not had some personal experience with some poop? I mean, seriously.

Yeah.

It washes off.

It washes off, then what's the problem....
"bout time your side gets some on 'em.
As far as money and what it does to people....just look at how the current government wants to get their hands on EVERYTHING. Not only do they want to tax us into oblivion, they want to control every aspect of our lives...Wake the f@ck up...

quote:

Originally posted by psychoABN:
It washes off, then what's the problem....
"bout time your side gets some on 'em.
As far as money and what it does to people....just look at how the current government wants to get their hands on EVERYTHING. Not only do they want to tax us into oblivion, they want to control every aspect of our lives...Wake the f@ck up...

Oh, PLEASE, give us a F'N break!

We are supposed to buy into the BS that NOW it matters when it was just a few years ago that you were ready to give it all away to Bush and Company in a New York minute because you were scared of the Bogey Man!

quote:

Originally posted by skinman13:

quote:

Originally posted by psychoABN:
It washes off, then what's the problem....
"bout time your side gets some on 'em.
As far as money and what it does to people....just look at how the current government wants to get their hands on EVERYTHING. Not only do they want to tax us into oblivion, they want to control every aspect of our lives...Wake the f@ck up...

Oh, PLEASE, give us a F'N break!

We are supposed to buy into the BS that NOW it matters when it was just a few years ago that you were ready to give it all away to Bush and Company in a New York minute because you were scared of the Bogey Man!

There you go putting words into someone elses mouth, who knows what the hell else you're up to....Uhhhhh....Anyhoo....I know this is old...but when you ASSUME... You make an a$$ out of you and me....although a bigger a$$ out of you....All of you Socialists/Communists think that just because someone opposes the current administration's policies, that they totally supported the previous administration's bull$hit. "BOOOSH...BOOOOOSH....." Sorry, you just made a REALY big A$$ out of youself...."BOOOOOOOSSSSHHHHHHH" Wow. 4-skinman13...study more...post less...buh-bye.

quote:

Originally posted by psychoABN:

quote:

Originally posted by skinman13:

quote:

Originally posted by psychoABN:
It washes off, then what's the problem....
"bout time your side gets some on 'em.
As far as money and what it does to people....just look at how the current government wants to get their hands on EVERYTHING. Not only do they want to tax us into oblivion, they want to control every aspect of our lives...Wake the f@ck up...

Oh, PLEASE, give us a F'N break!

We are supposed to buy into the BS that NOW it matters when it was just a few years ago that you were ready to give it all away to Bush and Company in a New York minute because you were scared of the Bogey Man!

There you go putting words into someone elses mouth, who knows what the hell else you're up to....Uhhhhh....Anyhoo....I know this is old...but when you ASSUME... You make an a$$ out of you and me....although a bigger a$$ out of you....All of you Socialists/Communists think that just because someone opposes the current administration's policies, that they totally supported the previous administration's bull$hit. "BOOOSH...BOOOOOSH....." Sorry, you just made a REALY big A$$ out of youself...."BOOOOOOOSSSSHHHHHHH" Wow. 4-skinman13...study more...post less...buh-bye.

You are one of those who blindly supported the last administration's invading Iraq, extraordinary rendition, denying those detained in Guantanamo any legal rights, warrantless wiretaps, torture...IOW, you support funding and doing these things whether or not they are legal and or Constitutional then and yet now you are somehow assuming a holier-than-thou attitude by questioning the legality and constitutionality of the current administration's policies and actions...The clear fact is that the sole basis of your complaints are because of who the president is and the party agenda he represents and nothing as noble as the Constitution and law as you now allege.

Your arguments are clearly neocon biased, sour-grape whining, blatantly hypocritical, and totally without merit.

quote:

Originally posted by skinman13:

quote:

Originally posted by psychoABN:

quote:

Originally posted by skinman13:

quote:

Originally posted by psychoABN:
It washes off, then what's the problem....
"bout time your side gets some on 'em.
As far as money and what it does to people....just look at how the current government wants to get their hands on EVERYTHING. Not only do they want to tax us into oblivion, they want to control every aspect of our lives...Wake the f@ck up...

Oh, PLEASE, give us a F'N break!

We are supposed to buy into the BS that NOW it matters when it was just a few years ago that you were ready to give it all away to Bush and Company in a New York minute because you were scared of the Bogey Man!

There you go putting words into someone elses mouth, who knows what the hell else you're up to....Uhhhhh....Anyhoo....I know this is old...but when you ASSUME... You make an a$$ out of you and me....although a bigger a$$ out of you....All of you Socialists/Communists think that just because someone opposes the current administration's policies, that they totally supported the previous administration's bull$hit. "BOOOSH...BOOOOOSH....." Sorry, you just made a REALY big A$$ out of youself...."BOOOOOOOSSSSHHHHHHH" Wow. 4-skinman13...study more...post less...buh-bye.

You are one of those who supported funding the war in Iraq, supported extraordinary rendition, supported denying those detained in Guantanamo any legal rights, supported warrantless wiretaps, supported torture...IOW, you supported funding these things whether or not they are legal and or Constitutional then and yet now you are somehow assuming a holier-than-thou attitude by questioning the legality and constitutionality of the current administration's policies and actions...The clear fact is that the sole basis of your complaints are because of who the president is and the party agenda he represents and nothing as noble as the Constitution and law as you now allege.

Your arguments are clearly neocon biased, sour-grape whining, blatantly hypocritical, and totally without merit.

Wow. With your mind reading skills, you should be in show biz...

Seriously though, your last blithering post shows your lack of depth....please....study more.....post less...much...much...less...and, speaking of tortue, reading your posts...yeah...way beyond, Comrade. I use that reluctantly, you're not of much use to the Party. Then again, most of you aren't. Show me that you aren't a Marxist...impossible so Buh-bye.

Enough with the insults and name calling. Not productive and is violation of the TOS.