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Military.com Forums Hot Topics & Current Events Point-Counterpoint Oath to the President or to the Constitution?|
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New Member |
There's been and still is a lot of flack about the President's qualifications to actually BE POTUS. Law suits abound trying to get a copy of the original birth certificate all other Americans are required to produce to get into school, a driver's license or Social Security card. We are not allowed to produce a Certificate of Live Birth unless it's from the State Dept and then it's a COLBA (the A being 'abroad.') It must be notarized and signed by the official registrar of the state Vital Statistics office. Anything else isn't "legal."
(Trust me, I just took my son down to get a driver's license and they turned down the photo copy of the certificate because the seal wasn't raised!) Now, my point. According to the 20th Amendment section 3, a newly elected President can NOT take office until he shows he's qualified. All the oath taking and promises and show does NOT make him President unless he does this first! Are the oaths we take in the military to uphold and defend the Constitution null and void if the so called "President" says so? NO! THAT is the oath we take! THAT is what we are suppose to do! Following and allowing a man that has not upheld the Constitutional REQUIREMENTS is NOT following and upholding our OWN oaths, is it? We take the oath because we love our country. Do we then follow blindly? They kicked my husband out of the Corps during the last week of boot camp because he signed the papers 2 days before his 17th birthday! They said it wasn't 'legal' even though he was 17 before he actually went. He was then able to rejoin 6 months later and repeat boot camp (yes the ONLY Marine in history to EVER go through boot camp TWICE!) What's the difference? He wasn't legally allowed to be there because of a 48 hour discrepancy in legal age. Law is Law! And Obama is NOT legally, nor Constitutionally our President for the same reason. He hasn't fulfilled ALL of the REQUIREMENTS! Do we just simply overlook this? Turn our heads and let it slide? How many more amendments will they go after next? If ONE is seen to be expendable under the right circumstance then they ALL are! The Constitution is NOT hit and miss, is NOT subject to whim. It is the LAW of our LAND and shall NOT BE TREAD UPON! OO RAH to those standing up for our country! Taking a stand to make Obama complete his Constitutional Requirements, for daring to QUESTION as their oath requires in the upholding and protecting of our most prized possession, The Constitution of the United States. That which so many have fought, shed their blood and died for. GOD BLESS AMERICA! |
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Experienced Member |
Two things -
1. lots of birth certificates start with the phrase "Certificate of Live Birth". I was born in Kentucky and that's exactly how mine is titled. The federal government does not interfere with the birth certificates of individual states. In each state a "birth certificate" is whatever the state says it is. Hawaii says that Obama's is legal - and that's all the 14th amendment requires. 2. Here's an interesting section of Title 8 of the U.S. Code (in regards to the 14th amendment and persons considered "natural born"). It defines the following as people who are "citizens of the United States at birth:" •Anyone born inside the United States * the person must be "subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States. This would exempt the child of a diplomat, for example, from this provision. •Any Indian or Eskimo born in the United States, provided being a citizen of the U.S. does not impair the person's status as a citizen of the tribe •Any one born outside the United States, both of whose parents are citizens of the U.S., as long as one parent has lived in the U.S. •Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year and the other parent is a U.S. national •Any one born in a U.S. possession, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year •Any one found in the U.S. under the age of five, whose parentage cannot be determined, as long as proof of non-citizenship is not provided by age 21 •Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years (with military and diplomatic service included in this time) •A final, historical condition: a person born before 5/24/1934 of an alien father and a U.S. citizen mother who has lived in the U.S. Let's play a game and assume that Barack Obama was not born in Hawaii - as so many claim - and was indeed born outside of the United States... the section I highlighted in bold still nullifies the contention that he is not "natural born", since, according to the law in title 8 of the United States he was, at the very least, born to one parent who was a citizen of the United States who had lived in the U.S. for at least five years. Period. |
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Experienced Member |
FYI - your husband is not the first Marine to go through bootcamp twice. I met many OSVETs who had repeated boot camp in another service (former army vet goes to navy bootcamp, vice versa).
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New Member |
Okay.. I will expound on that statement. MARINE CORPS BOOT CAMP TWICE.
I figured it was obvious from the context that it wasn't a switch between different services. Happy?  |
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Experienced Member |
Your only comment concerns the bootcamp issue? Nothing about the information provided by Bonesaw? Are you a full fledged "Birther" or are you convinced based on what Bonesaw provided and your follow up research to validate what he wrote that President Obama is legit? Inquiring minds want to know!!! |
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New Member |
If you want to see what a real Hawaiian BC looks like, go here: ++http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/sample_hawaiian_long_form_birth.htm
That is the legal or "original" Certificate. It looks like every other BC in the country. The State Department requires a 'certified' copy. The one he shows is not. There's no mark or signatures at all. When he produces THAT, I'll shut up! Now I ask you, is that to much to ask? It's simple. This message has been edited. Last edited by: pipedreamsandbabies, |
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Member |
Your posts should be in the "Conspiracy Theory Forum."
With only 4 posts, you probably aren't aware that you're waaaaaay behind the curve around here with Orly Taitz and her ... stuff. Try the other forum. You might find a little more satisfaction there.  |
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New Member |
Sorry for the delay, but life does go on around here and I just received a new weapon that I just HAD to play with! As far as the rest of the statement, I really just don't understand what all the foot dragging and money spending to keep something out of the publics eye is about. I'm really in the middle on this, fence straddling if you will. This is a point, counter point forum after all. But really, I would love to see that long form just for my own satisfaction being as there is a BC from Kenya, signed, sealed and everything with all the information that the long form requires. It's in the process of being authenticated. I would love to know how that is going as well. I'm not trying to start a fight. Just a good debate. That, after all, is the way our minds grow and learn. I'm neither Optimist nor Pessimist. I'm a Pragmatist. I need all the information from BOTH sides before I decide which way to go and until I get that, I err on the side of Constitutional caution. |
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Moderator Military History "Anytime, baby!"  |
And this is equally simple..hot links outside of Military.com are NOT allowed, unless you are linking to a "dot-mil" or "dot-gov" website, or to a site contained within the military-and-veteran-associations page. "I've a good mind to join a club and beat you over the head with it."--Groucho Marx |
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New Member |
My apologies.
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Lead Moderator, Veterans Issues Forums davem-milcom @cinci.rr.com Founding Member DVG  |
The judge heard one of the cases files by a Army doctor. The judge told the doctor and Orley that the burden of proof to prove that what Obama has provided is not a legal birth certificate.
Just be aware, the REPUBLICAN Governor of Hawaii, who worked for the election of John McCain has certified to the fact the Barack Obama was born in Hawaii and that the birth certificate provided is real. http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html |
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Navy Forums Moderator and Keeper of the Cane GerryRM3@yahoo.com  |
OK since your new to this I'll point something out just in case you don't know. My name has mod underneath it but its Navy mod and thats the only place I work. Here I'me a guest same as you and I follow the same rules. Some people don't know that and think mods are ganging up on them sometimes. It can be confusing to newbees.
 Your points are mute. He's the President and thats not going to change because some people won't let the idea go that he wasn't a legal American citizen. Beating the idea to death seems quite redundant since the challenge was defeated in court. Next question please. USS Liberty, Never Forget. I believe in Murrays Law, he thought Murphy was an optimist. |
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New Member |
According to the Constitution XX Amendment sec 3 the burden of proof rests squarely on Obama. And furthermore, what he produced was a CertificaTION of Birth not a Birth Certificate. They are two different creatures and Hawaii will give those to even foreign born persons if they show a Hawaiian residency of at least one year prior to application.
I know of a girl that was adopted by Hawaiian residents. She also has that same Certification yet her BC filed shows she was born in Korea of Korean Nationals. The original Certificate of Birth is filed with the state of Hawaii, I have no doubt of that. So, let's see it. Simple as that. No fuss, No muss. It's over and done with. Right? |
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New Member |
Amendment XX Section 3. If, at the time fixed for the beginning of the term of the President, the President elect shall have died, the Vice President elect shall become President. If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified. Please tell me what that says to you? And, you're right. It won't change as long as sheeple shut their eyes and mouth and don't question like good little robots. This message has been edited. Last edited by: Marine5711, |
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Member |
What it says to me is that the person who would benefit most from President Obama not being constitutionally qualified is Vice-President Biden. If Obama is not president, then Biden is. Not you, not me, not McCain, not Bush, not Rush, not Rush's drug dealer, not Beck. If not Obama, then Biden.
Nowhere in the 20th Amendment does it say anything about a birth certificate, long, short, tall, grande, or venti sized form. And also, birth certificates from the 50 states don't all look alike. As posted above by Bonesaw, even if his mother had given birth to him in Kenya (which she didn't) instead of Hawaii (which she did) then he still would have been born a US citizen. Would you have taken up the same argument if John McCain had been elected? John McCain, whom I voted for, can't produce a birth certificate showing that he was born in the United States because he wasn't. What about 30 or 40 years from now when my son gets elected? He was born a US citizen while we were stationed overseas. The oath is to the Constitution. The Constitution says, "The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States," (Go Air Force!!!) |
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Experienced Member |
You think the Republican gov of Hawaii is lying and all those organizations that have vetted his birth certifcate are lying and John Roberts was dupped when he swore him in. |
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Experienced Member |
Here's another issue the birthers never bring up that always bothered me.
Barack Obama Sr was attending college at the University of Hawaii on an academic scholarship. The scholarship did not offer Obama Sr. anything in the way of money for extravagant things (like plane tickets home). Obama Sr. began attending the University of Hawaii in 1959... he graduated in June of 1962 (whereupon he accepted another scholarship to Harvard). Barack (Jr) was born in August 4, 1961. If one is to believe that Obama (jr) was born in Kenya - one has to make the leap that Obama (Sr) was suddenly able to spring for a plane ticket to Kenya, not only for himself, but for his pregnant wife too. All on scholarship money that barely covered his school expenses, let alone his room and board in Hawaii. Barack Obama Sr. had only been able to come study in Hawaii in the first place by way of a free ticket on a donated charter flight with other Kenyan students. Both Obama Sr and Ann Dunham were unemployed students who could not afford such extravagant luxuries as plane tickets to Kenya while on summer break (especially since they now had other financial considerations what with a child on the way). |
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Experienced Member |
Obama Sr also got his degree in only three years of study - implying that he probably took classes during summer semesters as well.
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Lead Moderator MILITARY HISTORY Freedom!!! -------------------  Proud Member Derelict Veterans Group -------------------  |
The Constitution of the United States is our defense against Tyranny of all sorts...and prevails... |
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------------------- Proud Member Derelict Veterans Group -------------------  |
The Constitution of the United States is our defense against Tyranny of all sorts...and prevails...[/QUOTE]
Correct! No man or woman is above the Constitution. |
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Member |
Was Obama born twice? Hmmmmmmm, now that would explain a lot of things...
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---------------- Proud Member ----------------  |
Not just The Manchurian Candidate, but Dave as well. I'm not seeing the part of the 20th Amendment that says he has to show it to me. Or to Orly Taitz. Or to... Who do you say has the 'right' to demand this document? To whom must this proof be offered? What legal standing do you have to challenge the citizenship of anyone in your chain of command---sorry, your husband's chain of command? Your husband's enlistment contract was invalidated because he wasn't old enough to be bound by it. Not related to the nonsense at hand.
That one's got a peculiar smell to it. Now go a-way or I shall taunt you a second time! |
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MODERATOR Military Life, Spouses & Community If you want something said ask a Man; but if you want something done, ask a Woman! Margaret Thatcher  |
So I guess that means my son wasn't born in the US either? The only thing we got when we filed after he was born was a Certificate of Birth from the State of Hawaii. It is the piece of green paper with our names on it, dates, etc... There was no option to get the long form, never has that we have found. Our daughter was born in Washington and she doesn't have a birth certificate either, she has a Certificate of Live Birth. |
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Experienced Member ------------------ Proud member ------------------  |
Oath is the subject of discussion...and we (all who have served) have taken it to support the Constitution not the President... regardless of the implications. Live with it both sides of the political spectrum...It is what we swore to do...if he is a pretender he needs to say, do and provide the documentation that he is not...he swore as well when he took office. He suffers under the same expectations and outcomes.
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My Texas Birth Certificate is labeled a "Certification of Vital Record". Guess I wasn't born here either.
Also, why was there no answer to Bonesaw's point, that even if Obama was born outside the US, he would still be a "Natural Born citizen"? |
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10 DAYS SUSPENSION NEMESIS |
Because the goal is to paint our President as an outsider, a "one of THEM," someone not worthy of respect. That's the way they can mentally justify the way they talk about the man when they know full well that, had someone talked that way about the previous president, they would have had a brain aneurism from their indignation. It's a problem with both parties right now. It's not sufficient to disagree, or to claim that an idea is a bad one and produce evidence. No, nowadays the other person has to be not just mistaken or misguided, but EVIL, and hell-bent on destroying all that is good for some imaginary ulterior motive. |
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Experienced Member |
Your question is answered here. A great place to educate your self on everything 'birther related'. http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/04/chester-a-arthur-rest-in-peace/#more-3298 GOD BLESS AMERICA and GOD BLESS THE CinC and THE MILITARY HE COMMANDS!!! |
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Highly Experienced Member |
Well, since he will be running against my daughter I'm going to file this little tidbit away to use later |
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New Member |
FINALLY someone who understood the question and didn't get sidetracked and lost in the commentary. How easily we tend to lose the nuggets of wisdom in the rolling tide of opinion. It's not a new strategy by any means, to take the focus off the true question by feeding controversy and passionate B.S. Congratulations Dragonflyer for keeping your eyes and mind focused on the question and not the rhetoric. Well done. |
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Experienced Member |
Your husband, if enlisted, took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States and to obey the orders of the officers appointed over him and the President of the United States. Failure to do so will subject him to the Uniform Code of Military Justice and all the fun it has to offer. End of story. He doesn't get to question those lawful orders from the aforementioned nor does he get to vett the President's legitimacy. That role falls to others in the government. I recommend he leave his quest to the loons at Orly's site that refuse to beleive the paper before thier eys or the validation by competent government officials. What a military it would be if everyone could pick and chose the orders they wish to follow. |
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Military.com Forums Hot Topics & Current Events Point-Counterpoint Oath to the President or to the Constitution?
