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Military.com Forums Hot Topics & Current Events Point-Counterpoint Appeals Court rules against CPS in polygamist case|
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Austin Third Court of Appeals rules.
Reasons -- -- considering the whole ranch as one household -- lack of evidence -- most of the underaged girls were in their 20s And CPS/State of Texas hasn't decided whether or not to appeal it. It will be interesting as this is very high profile, costing tons of money, and looking more and more like a boondoggle. SAN ANGELO, Texas - In a ruling that could torpedo the case against the West Texas polygamist sect, a state appeals court Thursday said authorities had no right to seize more than 440 children in a raid on the splinter group's ranch last month. It was unclear how many children were affected by the ruling. The state took 464 children into custody in April, but Thursday's ruling directly applied to the children of 48 sect mothers represented by the Texas Rio Grande Legal Aide, said Cynthia Martinez of the agency. About 200 parents are involved in the polygamy case. The Third Court of Appeals in Austin ruled that the state offered "legally and factually insufficient" grounds for the "extreme" measure of removing all children from the ranch, from babies to teenagers. The state never provided evidence that the children were in any immediate danger, the only grounds in Texas law for taking children from their parents without court approval, the appeals court said. It also failed to show evidence that more than five of the teenage girls were being sexually abused, and never alleged any sexual or physical abuse against the other children, the court said. It was not immediately clear whether the children scattered across foster facilities statewide might soon be reunited with parents. The ruling gave Texas District Judge Barbara Walther 10 days to vacate her custody order, and the state could appeal. CPS spokesman Patrick Crimmins said department attorneys had just received the ruling and would make any decision about an appeal later. Even before Thursday's ruling, the state's allegations of teenage girls being pushed into sex appeared to be deflating. Of the 31 sect members CPS once said were underage mothers, 15 have been reclassified as adults — one was 27 years old — and an attorney for a 14-year-old girl said in court that she had no children and was not pregnant, as officials previously asserted. The custody case has been chaotic from the beginning. CPS has struggled with even the identities of the children for weeks and scattered them across foster facilities all over the sprawling state, with some siblings separated by as much as 600 miles. The sect children were removed en masse during a raid that began April 3 after someone called a domestic abuse hot line claiming to be a pregnant abused teenage wife. The girl has not been found and authorities are investigating whether the calls were a hoax. The FLDS, which teaches that polygamy brings glorification in heaven, is a breakaway of the Mormon church, which renounced polygamy more than a century ago. Members contend they are being persecuted by state officials for their religious beliefs. "They love our milk and honey but they preach about some other way of living When you’re running down my country, Hoss you’re walking on the fighting side of me" - - Merle Haggard |
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Everybody hates me, Nobody loves me...  |
Oh, brother. That opens a can of worms, doesn't it?
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"The day is wasted in which you learn nothing" |
Let the law suits begin. I'm usually critical of excessive litigation but, considering the heavy-handed shot gun approach of the CPS-instigated gestapo tactics, I hope to see fur fly. There must be a more sane way to investigate these kinds of allegations while still protecting at-risk minors and without terrorizing an entire community of hundreds. Certainly only a few of them are guilty of something. The rest appear to have have had their civil and legal rights violated.
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Everybody hates me, Nobody loves me... |
Down here in Texas, that's pretty much the typical behavior of CPS. I'm not knocking their motivation or reason de etre', but they often go overboard in their zeal to protect children. Yes, children need to be protected, but there must also be some appreciation of individual rights and responsibilities. I'm not condemning those individual agents involved in this case, but suggesting that CPS needs a complete, stem to stern overhaul. The Legislature meets again in January, and I'll predict that'll be hot topic number one because of this fiasco. |
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Member |
You can throw out the bathwater with CPS. While they were off on this fiasco, I wonder how many children (former cases) that they neglected? How many kids that they leave with drug addicted parents have been left in danger! "They love our milk and honey but they preach about some other way of living When you’re running down my country, Hoss you’re walking on the fighting side of me" - - Merle Haggard |
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"The day is wasted in which you learn nothing" |
I get the feeling that CPS is pretty similar everywhere. I suspect the whole concept is still relatively new but jurisprudence is not. PCS cases should fly the banner, 'Guilty! until proven innocent". I do tend to fault individuals. I've witnessed local (here it's called) CSEA case workers act as if they had been commissioned by God Almighty and they, and only they, have the inside knowledge of the facts straight from the Throne. Demigod case workers do harm to the character of the Agency. When regular citizens are mistreated, there goes trust and cooperation...and child protection. |
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Member |
I think we can count on lawsuits filed against the State of Texas. "The decision in one of the biggest child-custody cases in U.S. history was a humiliating defeat for the state Child Protective Services agency. It was hailed as vindication by members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, who claim they are being persecuted for their religious beliefs." Awaiting next step "They love our milk and honey but they preach about some other way of living When you’re running down my country, Hoss you’re walking on the fighting side of me" - - Merle Haggard |
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Experienced Member |
Texas officials plan to ask court block ruling in sect case
SAN ANGELO, Texas - Texas child welfare authorities plan Friday to appeal a stinging ruling that found they had no right to seize more than 440 children from a polygamist sect's ranch, a court spokesman said. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080523/ap_on_re_us/polygam...Um_y6TEXYpZ01jas0NUE |
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Member |
Yes CPS is appealing it to the Supreme Court of Texas. Link: Dallas Morning News Part of the basis for their appeal is that CPS claims not to know who the mothers of the children are since DNA testing has not been done. (However, they fail to mention that birth certificates have been used to try to identify the children. CPS has all but ignored that particular type of evidence as it has come to light in the case of those 16 year-old mothers that happen to be 23 and 27.) We will have to wait and see what the TX Supreme Court rules. "They love our milk and honey but they preach about some other way of living When you’re running down my country, Hoss you’re walking on the fighting side of me" - - Merle Haggard |
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Experienced Member |
How many CPS agents are parents??? My family had a run in with several 23 years ago who were not. They tried to take my son for "failure to thrive" that was assessed by a Navy nurse in San Diego after the Dr. diagnosed him with viral gastroenteritis. Hmmm. Nurses vetoing physicians' diagnoses and CPS agents who are childless telling parents how they should have raised their kids to avoid summoning the wrath of the state. IMO, with the same logic that is used to argue anti-death penalty positions, I believe that destruction of one family unjustly for the sake of all kids is too many. This case is just part and parcel to the problem of too many bureaucracies vying for funds. |
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Experienced Member |
I don't think the Texas Supreme Court, or any federal court in the Fifth Circuit will likely rule against the Third Court of Appeals. I think that Judge Walther might see an end to her career. |
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Member |
I think you may be right about the Supreme Court not hearing the case. Several other St. Mary's JD grads have the same opinion. (You did tell me you went to St. Mary's, right?  Hopefully I'm not confusing you with someone else....this time of year my battery is about to need a recharge!) Here is a new article....CPS states that the court is using excessive powers.....isn't that exactly what CPS did? *** Texas Supreme Court justices ended the day Friday by sending for the trial record in the polygamist sect custody case from the Third Court of Appeals, an indication that the justices will spend the weekend grappling with the legal issues surrounding state custody of well more than 400 children. Meanwhile, the parents of 12 of the children are enjoying a reunion after state authorities in San Antonio on Friday temporarily released the children of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints' embattled YFZ Ranch families back to their parents pending the outcome of an action in district court there. Rod Parker, spokesman for the some of the parents, said it is further proof the state's case is unraveling. "It validates what we said all along," Parker said, speaking late Friday afternoon from an airport in Utah. "I'm very pleased to see the first children come home." CPS spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner said she cannot comment on the 12 children leaving state custody. The week began with 60-day hearings in San Angelo and ended with a flurry of rulings and motions in higher courts. Thursday, the Third Court of Appeals in Austin issued an opinion in response to a filing by legal aid attorneys representing some YFZ parents that would have effectively released nearly all the children back to the custody of their parents. The state struck back Friday, filing a motion for emergency relief from the appellate order. The Child Protective Services motion said the appellate court acted "in excess of its power." The agency asked the state Supreme Court to overturn the lower court's ruling. Texas Supreme Court spokesman Osler McCarthy said he expects the court to act on this emergency relief request "fairly quickly." "They could do it in briefs, they could hold a hearing or they could deny it," McCarthy said. "All three are possibilities." The sect, which split decades ago from the mainstream Mormon Church, practices a form of plural marriage involving spiritual unions not intended to be officially recognized. It is accused of a having a culture of child sexual abuse. Evan Pierce-Jones, a member of Hennington, Butler and Jones in San Angelo, represents Leland Keate, one of the fathers of three of the children who for the time being will live with their parents. He said a hearing for application of writ of habeas corpus was scheduled for Friday, but was rescheduled for June 9. Such documents order that a person in custody be brought before a court and place the burden of proof on those detaining that person to justify the detention. The children will live with their parents, Leland and Linda Keate, at least until that date or pending the outcome of the appeals. "They are very excited," he said. The CPS request, not technically an appeal of the Third Court's ruling, says the three justices overstepped their bounds by ordering 51st District Judge Barbara Walther to vacate her mid-April order granting temporary custody of some 450 sect children. The request argued that returning the children at this point would be problematic because DNA testing has not determined which children belong to which parents. Later Friday, the legal aid lawyers filed their response to the state's request, characterizing the identity argument as a "red herring" and stating that the children "are being subjected to continuing, irreparable harm every day they are separated from their parents." The response says the practical effect of the appeals court order would be to allow the children to go home while CPS continues its investigation. McCarthy said late Friday the justices had sent for the trial record, an indication that they will work through the weekend. The Department of Family and Protective Services earlier issued a statement defending the raid, saying it removed the children "after finding a pervasive pattern of sexual abuse that puts every child at the ranch at risk." "Child Protective Services has one duty - to protect children. When we see evidence that children have been sexually abused and remain at risk of further abuse, we will act," the department said. Sect members said they were elated at the initial ruling but expected an appeal. The ruling, in perhaps the largest child custody case in U.S. history, hammered the state for removing the children. Technically, it applied only to the children of 48 mothers named in the appeal, but the ruling was broad enough to cover nearly every child swept up in the weeklong early April raid. The appeals court said the state acted too hastily in sweeping up all the children and taking them away on the broad beliefs of the Mormon splinter sect. "Even if one views the FLDS belief system as creating a danger of sexual abuse by grooming boys to be perpetrators of sexual abuse and raising girls to be victims of sexual abuse there is no evidence that this danger is 'immediate' or 'urgent,' " the court said. "Evidence that children raised in this particular environment may someday have their physical health and safety threatened is not evidence that the danger is imminent enough to warrant invoking the extreme measure of immediate removal," the court said. The court said the state failed to show that any more than five of the teenage girls were being sexually abused, and offered no evidence of sexual or physical abuse against the other children. After the appellate ruling on Thursday, the status hearings in San Angelo were canceled indefinitely. During those hearings, of the 31 people the state initially said were underage mothers, at least 15 were reclassified as adults. One mother is 27. The state has struggled for weeks to establish the identities of the children and sort out their tangled family relationships. The youngsters are in foster homes all over the state, with some brothers or sisters separated by as much as 600 miles. "They love our milk and honey but they preach about some other way of living When you’re running down my country, Hoss you’re walking on the fighting side of me" - - Merle Haggard |
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Highly Experienced Member |
Gonna be a long, drawn-out legal battle. I believe that CPS has some very sound legal arguments that some of these kids, especially those girls nearing puberty, are at risk.
Under supervision...(I wonder why the author of this article slanted this important point out???)
Again, not exactly true...they are still in San Antonio
So, we obviously do not have the whole story, just one side that heavily slanted against CPS, and CPS cannot deny any of the accusations because it is legally restricted from commenting...
Again, severely slanted against CPS...and, this same author would be all over CPS as NOT doing their jobs if even ONE child were to lose their lives because CPS returned that child to their parents...play the story, but don't let facts get in the way of selling newspapers...
We NEED to know the truth here, and we NEED for the courts to make the lawyers to STFU until the truth is determined...all this talk to the media by both sides is doing is stroking public opinion at the risk of children's welfare.
There appears to be some hard evidence of this being true...and if so, these children are definitely at risk.
Who is being detained? Why is a writ necessary? Does this apply to a minor being held in protective custody???
Again, this is misleading...these children will be with their parents under CLOSE supervision.
I believe that they have the evidence and I believe that removing all of the children until what was happening to them in that compound was determined was the correct response.
Again, I see no problem and support CPS taking all of the children into protective custody until things can be sorted out.
I believe that if there were nothing to hide here, then these "parents" would not be so reluctant to cooperate. On the surface, it looks like there may be evidence in this area that supports the state's primary case, and that is what the group's members are hiding. They are not cooperating with the state, they are using legal wrangling to circumvent the truth coming out. It is like they have something to hide...and are using legal maneuvers to hide it.
First the author notes out that the relationships cannot be confirmed and then closes the article with this prejudicial and clearly contradictory claim that siblings are separated. How can that be if the group will not confirm who is the parent of which child and sibling relationships are unknown? aw, so far, you have been carefully sitting on the fence on this issue...where do you stand on it? |
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Experienced Member |
WHAT A CROCK! Who can prove "continuing, irreparable hard every day"? I was separated from my parents several times during my childhood. Even though I was placed with relatives, they were practically strangers until I went to live with them. Even so, living with relatives was a huge improvement over what I had been experiencing at home. Children are resiliant. At least, while they are in state custody, they might begin to learn that the world isn't entirely evil. Warren Jeffs has taught those children to fear the world. He has preached that we "Outsiders" don't have a soul, we are the "walking dead", are are despised by God. Personally I have no objections to a man having as many mistresses as he can support, as long as they can all get along in the same household. But obviously an essential aspect of American freedom is the right of women to choose a spouse and to leave the sect if they want out. |
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Experienced Member |
----------------------- The continuing, irreparable harm is the lost opportunity to continue the brainwashing necessary for these children, upon reaching adulthood, to at least semi-voluntarily remain members of this cult. At least that's the most likely concern of "harm" to these kids by the cult leaders. This whole fiasco is a tough one for me, as are all the religious cult type situations where there is a question as to just how voluntary continued participation really is. There's been enough evidence for me to believe the women and children associated with the FLDS back in Colorado City (which "sprouted" the YFZ Ranch)are miserable, neglected, bullied, mentally, and physically abused. The "Prophet" has incredible power and people (male and female, adult and child) are kept in line with religious dogma that is invented, as needed, by the Prophet. (Or, for true, believers, given to the Prophet by God.) I am a firm believer in religious freedoms but I start squirming when it starts taking the path that we see with the FLDS. Those kids were in Texas to begin with under the orders of a convicted child rapist because his followers believe he is a prophet of God and God "revealed" the need to travel to "The Center Place." Just hope they're not handing out koolaid. |
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