Tomorrow is a national day of action calling for a special prosecutor for those who ordered illegal torture. How do we deal with those who, as Major General Anthony Taguba says, were responsible for

quote:

"[a] permissive environment created by implicit and explicit authorizations by senior US officials to "take the gloves off"..."

It is important to remember the context in which American soldiers did these things. The above image, believed to be taken in Iraq, is just one example of how soldiers were told to link the attacks on 9/11 with Iraqis and the Iraq War.

It cannot be counted how many times Bush or Cheney went on national TV to make the firm connection for those who rushed to serve after the attacks, with statements like:

quote:

"After the chaos and carnage of September the 11th, it is not enough to serve our enemies with legal papers. The terrorists and their supporters declared war on the United States, and war is what they got." -- In Bush's January 20, 2004, State of the Union address

quote:

"We're taking the fight to those that attacked us." --
February 24, 2006, American Legion in Washington, D.C.

quote:

"You can't distinguish between Al Qaeda and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror. They're equally as bad. They work in concert,"

Nagem Sadoon Hatab, a 52-year-old Iraqi, was killed in U.S. custody at a Marine camp close to Nasiriyah, Iraq. After his arrival in June 2003, a number of Marines beat Hatab, including allegedly "karate-kicking" him while he stood handcuffed and hooded. A day later, Hatab reportedly developed severe diarrhea, and was covered in feces. Hatab was stripped and examined by a medic, who thought that Hatab might be faking sickness.

""http://www.humanrightsfirst.info/pdf/06221-etn-hrf-dic-rep-web.pdf

Hatab was later dragged outside to make way for another prisoner, covered in his own feces, and left in the sun. He was found dead sometime after midnight.

A U.S. Army medical examiner's autopsy of Hatab found that he had died of strangulation. The autopsy also found that six of Hatab's ribs were broken and his back, buttocks, legs and knees covered with bruises. Hatab's hyoid bone, a U-shaped throat bone located at the base of the tongue, was never found. The bone was a key piece of evidence, because it supported the Army Medical Examiner's finding that Hatab died of strangulation. Two Marine guards were court martialed, but never served prison time.

At or near the main gate of nearly every military base in Iraq is an image of the Twin Towers. WMD or no WMD, it was the link in the minds of soldiers who took their leaders' words at face value, which brought out the savagery of human nature when payback is in mind. I submit that in the absence of such direct links, even couched the way they were in ambiguity enough to allow for lawyerly defenses later (never reaching nearly as far as "depends on what you mean by the word "is""), most of these young men could as soon have done such things in their normal state as hurt a fly.

The key pieces of evidence cited by Bush in public were:

-- "Zarqawi was in Iraq, proving an Iraq - Al Qaeda connection." But Zarqawi was in an area controlled by the Kurds. But the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence concluded that Iraq "did not have a relationship, harbor, or turn a blind eye toward Zarqawi and his associates." The truth is bin Laden and Saddam hated each other, as Saddam was secular and allowed women to become doctors, and bin Laden considered him an infidel for being an ally of the US for so long.

-- "Atta met with Iraqi Intelligence in Prague, proving the Iraq - Al Qaeda connection." Cited by Dick Cheney. But Atta was in a bank ATM in Florida. The FBI has the security camera photos to prove it.

Colin Powell mentioned Zarqawi no fewer than twenty times in his UN speech, and said Iraq "today harbors a deadly terrorist network" headed by Zarqawi.

The overlooked piece of evidence of Bush's duplicity was mentioned briefly during the 2004 presidential debates, then dropped like a hot potato by the media. This was the overwhelming testimony of soldiers that Bush had bin Laden in his sights at Tora Bora. If bin Laden were captured or killed, the momentum for Iraq would evaporate. It emerged briefly on 60 Minutes, a scoop of the century, then was never mentioned once on the nightly news headlines.

""http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/02/60minutes/main4494937.shtml

The top CIA commander in Afghanistan in December of 2001, Gary Berntsen, urgently requested 800 U.S. troops to block bin Laden's escape. The request was denied. CIA Deputy Counter Terrorism Director Hank Crumpton asked General Tommy Franks to send in reinforcements from the 1200 Marines who were stationed 80 miles away, in Kandahar, but that request was also denied. Osama bin Laden finally bribed the Northern Alliance warlords charged with blocking his escape, whom Berntsen had begged his superiors not to trust.

Both George Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney later repeated General Franks' claim that the U.S was not sure bin Laden was trapped at Tora Bora. Both Bush and Cheney said in interviews: "We don't know if bin Laden was at Tora Bora." But Berntsen's contradiction is blunt. "I knew exactly where he was" he told MSNBC in 2005. He told Newsweek: "He was there." CIA field commander Gary Schroen, who was pulled out of retirement by the Bush administration to lay the groundwork for the assault on the Taliban 2 days after 9/11, is equally blunt in his concurrence with Berntsen, saying: "I have no doubt that he [bin Laden] was there [in Tora Bora]."

""http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a112601marineskandahar#a112601marineskandahar

Al Qaeda was left to regenerate. Along with an Afghanistan reconstruction which was drowned in the bathtub, it resulted in the second wave of Al Qaeda resurgence we are seeing now.

What's next for the Bush-Era Accountability Movement, including TortureGate? The consensus seems to be for a special prosecutor. But a prosecutor to prosecute whom? The instigators, that's who. In addition to John Yoo and the Torture Gurus, those who helped falsify intelligence and lied us into the war. Some will disagree, and say there is no excuse for following illegal orders, but "following orders" is too simple. If you cry for the victims of torture in Iraq, cry for the soldiers too. A man told me in a bar, after a bout of arguing politics and drinking, nearly in tears, "I'm ashamed of what I did in Iraq."

Those who knew better, and lied deliberately and in cold blood, over and over, deserve no such sympathy.

Rabbi Yitzchok Dov Koppelman wrote:

quote:

"one who causes another to sin is worse than one who murders another person...Of a murderer it is written, "The congregation shall judge him and save him."

Those who know full well what they were doing, and stated it clearly and concisely as far back as their membership in the Project for a New American Century, must be the targets. This is a small number of men (and women) like Douglas Feith, who ran a rogue intelligence operation to feed misinformation like Curveball's, a certifiable nut according to German intelligence who nevertheless was used in Colin Powell's speech to the UN. It's time for the movement to start naming all the names, over and over, so that citizens can understand these are real live people who can be touched by the law.

Implicate all of congress? Because they were looking at the same intelligence? No, they weren't. The 2002 National Intelligence Estimate presented to congress before the war, the administration's key document, was scrubbed of the conclusion by 16 US intelligence agencies that Saddam was NOT an imminent threat, and would attack or pass on WMD to a terrorists organization only if attacked first. Big, big time deception well-documented in Vincent Bugliosi's book "The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder."

On this day before nationwide rallies for the appointment of a special prosecutor, the suspected war criminals are:

1 Abrams, Elliot
2 Addington, David
3 Ashcroft, John
4 Bellinger III, John B.
5 Bolton, John R.
6 Bremer, Paul
7 Bush, George W
8 Bybee, Jay S.
9 Card Jr., Andrew H.
10 Cheney, Richard
11 Chertoff, Michael B.
12 Feith, Douglas
13 Franks, General Tommy Ray
14 Gates, Robert M.
15 Gonzales, Alberto R.
16 Hadley, Stephen John
17 Hayden, Michael V.
18 Haynes, William J
19 Libby, I. Lewis "Scooter"
20 Negroponte, John Dimitri
21 Pelosi, Nancy
22 Perle, Richard Norman
23 Petraeus, David H.
24 Powell, Colin Luther
25 Prince, Erik. D
26 Rice, Condoleeza
27 Rove, Karl Christian
28 Rumsfeld, Donald H.
29 Tenet, George John
30 Wolfowitz, Paul Dundes
31 Yoo, John Choon

From now through Thursday please call Attorney General Eric Holder at 202-353-1555 to demand a Special Prosecutor. Then call your own congressmember at 202-224-3121. Please circulate and forward this post to your congressmember and to the White House.

More info at War Criminal Watch
""http://www.warcriminalswatch.org/

This message has been edited. Last edited by: WitchitaKid,

You are a very sick young child, go into the bathroom and take your meds.

Really? I never saw the twin towers at the gate of any base there and I visited a lot.

Lost me when you weren't smart enough to spell Wichita right.

You guys kill me.

you disregard the man's plea based on a word being misspelled?

disregard it because you don't like what he says?

disregard it because you have never seen the picture he posted....
but what about the content?
is the content in fact, Factual? do you know if it is factual? or do you just not care?

torture and beatings of our prisoners is a serious factor to consider.
if we legally get to use it on them, how long before we can use it our US prisoners?
how long before we let our OWN rights be eroded away?

the man's plea chafes me. but i will not disregard it off hand, since the precendent set in his discourse, if proven factual, could be catastrophic to our nation and our bill of rights.

I'm just glad I'm not on the list!

quote:

Originally posted by Elesso:
You guys kill me.

you disregard the man's plea based on a word being misspelled?

disregard it because you don't like what he says?

disregard it because you have never seen the picture he posted....
but what about the content?
is the content in fact, Factual? do you know if it is factual? or do you just not care?

torture and beatings of our prisoners is a serious factor to consider.
if we legally get to use it on them, how long before we can use it our US prisoners?
how long before we let our OWN rights be eroded away?

the man's plea chafes me. but i will not disregard it off hand, since the precendent set in his discourse, if proven factual, could be catastrophic to our nation and our bill of rights.

The reality is that once again someone with no military service has provided a series of inflammatory observations that clearly have the intent to incite emotions rather than address an important issue. His rant has all the usual claptrap with only unique feature being that he could not manage to spell his own name correctly.

quote:

Originally posted by adminnco1:

quote:

Originally posted by Elesso:
You guys kill me.

you disregard the man's plea based on a word being misspelled?

disregard it because you don't like what he says?

disregard it because you have never seen the picture he posted....
but what about the content?
is the content in fact, Factual? do you know if it is factual? or do you just not care?

torture and beatings of our prisoners is a serious factor to consider.
if we legally get to use it on them, how long before we can use it our US prisoners?
how long before we let our OWN rights be eroded away?

the man's plea chafes me. but i will not disregard it off hand, since the precendent set in his discourse, if proven factual, could be catastrophic to our nation and our bill of rights.

The reality is that once again someone with no military service has provided a series of inflammatory observations that clearly have the intent to incite emotions rather than address an important issue. His rant has all the usual claptrap with only unique feature being that he could not manage to spell his own name correctly.

Yeah, but he has mastered the art of copy/paste, apparently.

I love message board bots.

"clap trap" (disregarding words)

"Non Military" (disregarding statement)

"Cant spell his own name right" (disregarding statement)

maybe, just MAYBE, he wanted his name to actually BE "witchita" and not "wichita" ever consider this?
and as far as his Military status, is he deprived of his freedon of speech because he did not serve? are you, and i SUPERIOR to him becaue we served? or did we serve so he could HAVE THE RIGHT TO SPEAK?

I demand this slander against our soliders be removed. Witchita Kid, you're going to say that those soliders painted that picture? Really. So they can write in perfect Arabic? That is NOT an American made sign.

I think the torture thing had a lot more to do with contractors, military doctors and psychologists, and the CIA. Naturally only low ranking soldiers have been prosecuted for a national policy. Not excusing their actions, just pointing out how I've been taught that responsibility is a top-down thing in the military, and should be the same way in the government.

quote:

Originally posted by Elesso:
You guys kill me.

you disregard the man's plea based on a word being misspelled?

disregard it because you don't like what he says?

disregard it because you have never seen the picture he posted....
but what about the content?
is the content in fact, Factual? do you know if it is factual? or do you just not care?

torture and beatings of our prisoners is a serious factor to consider.
if we legally get to use it on them, how long before we can use it our US prisoners?
how long before we let our OWN rights be eroded away?

the man's plea chafes me. but i will not disregard it off hand, since the precendent set in his discourse, if proven factual, could be catastrophic to our nation and our bill of rights.

No, I was refuting what he said. He stated that a picture of the twin towers was at or near every gate in Iraq. I say this is not true based on actually having been to many gates in Iraq.

I was just showing that one of his facts was not a fact at all.

quote:

Attorney General Eric Holder

Shouldn't his name be on that list too?

quote:

Originally posted by 21796227:
I demand this slander against our soliders be removed. Witchita Kid, you're going to say that those soliders painted that picture? Really. So they can write in perfect Arabic? That is NOT an American made sign.

are you saying that no AMERICANS can write in Arabic?

sounds rather pretentious to me to assume that american can only read or write english.

quote:

Originally posted by Tomcatt:

quote:

Originally posted by Elesso:
You guys kill me.

you disregard the man's plea based on a word being misspelled?

disregard it because you don't like what he says?

disregard it because you have never seen the picture he posted....
but what about the content?
is the content in fact, Factual? do you know if it is factual? or do you just not care?

torture and beatings of our prisoners is a serious factor to consider.
if we legally get to use it on them, how long before we can use it our US prisoners?
how long before we let our OWN rights be eroded away?

the man's plea chafes me. but i will not disregard it off hand, since the precendent set in his discourse, if proven factual, could be catastrophic to our nation and our bill of rights.

No, I was refuting what he said. He stated that a picture of the twin towers was at or near every gate in Iraq. I say this is not true based on actually having been to many gates in Iraq.

I was just showing that one of his facts was not a fact at all.

point taken

quote:

Originally posted by Elesso:
You guys kill me.

you disregard the man's plea based on a word being misspelled? (Irrelevant)

disregard it because you don't like what he says? (It's nonsense)

disregard it because you have never seen the picture he posted....
but what about the content? (Again, nonsense. He want's to indict half the government for a non-crime.)
is the content in fact, Factual? do you know if it is factual? or do you just not care? (The 2nd choice.)

torture and beatings of our prisoners is a serious factor to consider. (Not if it saves American lives. Besides we aren't talking about anything more than 'hazing'.)
if we legally get to use it on them, how long before we can use it our US prisoners?
how long before we let our OWN rights be eroded away? (Checked your 2nd amendment rights lately? Bought any ammo in the last few months?)

the man's plea (Plea? More like an irresponsible rant.) chafes me. but i will not disregard it off hand, since the precendent set in his discourse, if proven factual, could be catastrophic to our nation and our bill of rights. (Bil of rights is not applicable to foreigners.)

I don't care if the kid misspelled words or not. The point is that here again is some wet-behind-the-ears azzhole citing some leftist crap about an event that probably most Americans could care less. The worst of which seems to be waterboarding. Nothing I have read comes even close to torture; throwing a Koran in to the crapper? Making prisoners wear woman's panties? Laughing at and taking pictures of naked prisoners? If that is what some of you call 'torture', then you better never attempt to join a college fraternity.

quote:

Originally posted by Elesso:
"clap trap" (disregarding words)

"Non Military" (disregarding statement)

"Cant spell his own name right" (disregarding statement)

maybe, just MAYBE, he wanted his name to actually BE "witchita" and not "wichita" ever consider this?
and as far as his Military status, is he deprived of his freedon of speech because he did not serve? are you, and i SUPERIOR to him becaue we served? or did we serve so he could HAVE THE RIGHT TO SPEAK?

It's always the same story, some person with no military experience comes up with some phantasmagorical scenario that could never happen and he's supposed to be taken seriously?

quote:

Originally posted by adminnco1:

quote:

Originally posted by Elesso:
"clap trap" (disregarding words)

"Non Military" (disregarding statement)

"Cant spell his own name right" (disregarding statement)

maybe, just MAYBE, he wanted his name to actually BE "witchita" and not "wichita" ever consider this?
and as far as his Military status, is he deprived of his freedon of speech because he did not serve? are you, and i SUPERIOR to him becaue we served? or did we serve so he could HAVE THE RIGHT TO SPEAK?

It's always the same story, some person with no military experience comes up with some phantasmagorical scenario that could never happen and he's supposed to be taken seriously?

So what happened to this azzhole and his supporter? He comes on here full of bluster and BS then high tails it for the hills when he is confronted?

The American soldier is my brother and sister.

Yet they get tortured and no one says anything about it.

When people get their heads screwed on straight, and begin protesting their torture, I'll support them.

Until then, STFU!