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Military.com Forums Hot Topics & Current Events Point-Counterpoint E.U. DEMOCRACY IS BREATHING THE DEATH RATTLE|
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SUSPENDED MEMBER S_S Highly Experienced Member |
E.U. DEMOCRACY IS BREATHING THE DEATH RATTLE
Democracy is officially dead in Europe as the EU is on the verge of making the historical move of breaking its own laws in order to force all nation states to comply with the Lisbon Treaty. At the same time, the move to silence criticism of this dictatorship is being driven ahead as well. DON’T THINK IT WON’T HAPPEN IN YOUR COUNTRY!!! The time where we were safe from the outside world within our own national borders is over. It’s time we looked beyond our own national situation. We can no longer be secure in the knowledge that our own laws or constitution will protect us. THE WHOLE WORLD IS UNDER THREAT and we’ve got to be watching for changes globally rather than nationally if we want to be prepared for what is going to absolutely affect each one of us. The hate speech witchhunt in Canada corresponds to similar witchhunts in Australia and in Europe. The whole movement to silence and to suppress the peoples of the world has sprung up overnight in the post 9/11 world. Of course, it was always present in Communist societies. So it should come as no surprise that it’s a socialist at the driving edge of tightening the noose further on bloggers in Europe. Estonian Socialist Marianne Mikko is pushing for bloggers to be put under scrutiny. Her justification? Read the rest of this entry » |
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Experienced Member |
Yes, it's very democratic for one of the smallest nation states in the EU to try and move the other 26 into dropping the treaty.
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Member |
I assume you're against the US government reading our emails and listening to our phone calls without a warrant, whitetiger?
And that you are against the claim of the Bush administration to lock anyone, including US citizens arrested in the USA, indefinitely without a warrant, court review or a lawyer? If you are not against these things, please don't point a finger at Europe. |
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Experienced Member |
You know the author is sortof right. What the new treaty tries to implement is not a pure democracy in that the president of the EU will not be elected directly by the people, but will instead be appointed by the elected representatives in the various countries. Do you know any other nation that do things that way  Then again the rest of the article reveal the author to be a far right idealist with little grasp of reality, so I woudnt worry too much about the doom and gloom predicted. regards JakobA "Good is better than bad cause its nicer" Mammy Yokum (as related by Al Capp) |
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SUSPENDED MEMBER S_S Highly Experienced Member |
 at you |
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Member |
How is this for a grand scenario? One terrorist telling another on the phone, "Hey Abdul, are you going to be part of the next 9/11 in Los Angeles on the date we agreed on"? "Hell yes praise be to Allah, but hey, shouldn't we be careful talking on the phone"? "Naw not to worry says Mohammad, it will take the stupid Kafirs (Infidels) the better part of a day or two to even get a phone tap Warrant"!  |
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Experienced Member |
Ah but let's not forget that the Paddies were the only ones whose government had the courtesy to ask. Mind you the rest of it is the usual far-right w&~k fantasy. |
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SUSPENDED MEMBER S_S Highly Experienced Member |
P.S. the American member of the Taliban John Walker should have been shot in Afgan... |
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Experienced Member |
True, on both points. It would have been "interesting" if the other member states has allowed a referendum. Still, it's a strange form of democracy where 3 million can veto the other 300 million. Maybe the Irish should bale out of the EU ? Perhaps their having gone from being a net beneficiary to a net donator has made them think again. |
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Experienced Member |
Uh, didn't the French voters reject this treaty a couple of years ago? Maybe the Germans should allow their people the right to vote on it. |
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Highly Experienced Member |
Nice strawman, completely untrue of course but a nice strawman. You are aware I hope that under the FISA laws, BEFORE Bush decided to ignore them, a tap could be started immediately and the government then had several days (I forget if it was 3 or 4) to file the paperwork. But of course since the truth does not support the Bush admin propaganda feel free to ignore it. This message has been edited. Last edited by: rayld2, |
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SUSPENDED MEMBER S_S Highly Experienced Member |
ray we are at war...are you doing something you don't want to be caught doing...
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 Super Member  |
It's supposed to be a republic, not a democracy, and our's is FAR from healthy, too! 3 trillion in debt, economy going in the toilet, two wars we got no clue how to win, a generation graduating into an era where family homes cost 1/2 a million because American money has been devalued to laughable levels, and we're enslaved via oil and products to countries that hate our guts and would love to see us crumble.... Any bets on who collapse first: Europe or America?? Hint Hint - Europe has been around for a VERY long time Wandering and Wondering |
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SUSPENDED MEMBER S_S Highly Experienced Member |
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 Shock & Awe Lead Mod HT Mod  Retired Submariner Experienced Member  |
Mod Hat Off That is a TOTALLY ludicrous argument. Under OUR Constitution, the Government does NOT have the right to violate our RIGHTS because we MIGHT be up to something. Our RIGHTs as citizens have been whittled away a little at a time over MANY YEARS..... and every right that we lose will be hard fought to get back. One of our FOUNDING FATHERS had a very good handle on what is going on TODAY, and made a very intelligent and insightful statement about it..... "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. ~~~Benjamin Franklin~~~ What we see happening in this Country in the current era is EXACTLY what our forefathers tried to protect us from with the laboriously written Constitution they left us...... and you are willing to throw it out so casually? I am not. Any rights we cede away to a Government we may trust today will also be held by a Government of the future that we may have reason to FEAR. Mod Hat On  "The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life."~~~Theodore Roosevelt~~~ |
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Highly Experienced Member |
Nothing makes a country rethink socialism faster than prosperity.  You know that look a woman gets when she wants sex? Neither do I. |
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Experienced Member  |
All the word "Republic" means is that the power of the government is derived from the people - as opposed to a king/monarchy. Democracy and Republics aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, Democracies are a form of republic, but not all republics are democratic.
More like $9.4 Trillion! |
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Member |
Who gave you the right to speak for "the other 300 million?" From what I read, if the UK had a referendum, the result would be the same as Ireland. But your elites won't let the hoi-polloi vote on it. They know better. |
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SUSPENDED MEMBER S_S Highly Experienced Member |
SS we have been monitored fo years...what store we shop at, bbuy gas, movies we go to, down to what kind and how much toilet paper we use...we can stand up and raise all kinds of hell but it will not stop any thing...we are at war for the duration of our childrens lives...until the Caliphate is set...then there will be a new/old problem to face...wiretaps is a grain of sand on the beach... |
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Member |
I am amused when the scary Muslims and "the Caliphate" are used as the reasons to invade our privacy and deny our freedoms. The fact is that none of these Arab countries could find their asses without our help, or the help of the French, Brits or Russians. To suggest that they are a serious threat to the USA is a joke. Funny we got through the Cold War, with hundreds of Soviet divisions and thousands of nuclear weapons, the KGB, the GRU and the Warsaw Pact threatening us, without the kind of spying on everyone that Bush is excusing. "They" are not just monitoring our credit card purchases. They are listening to your phone calls to your wife, reading your emails and even reading your posts here and putting a profile of you in their databases. We "the people" do not know how far it goes. You post about the lack of democracy in Europe. The same problem exists here when unaccountable officials stonewall the Congress and courts about what sort of unconstitutional surveillance is being conducted. |
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Experienced Member |
Who gave you the right to speak for "the other 300 million?" That, indeed, was my point about Ireland. The UK government is very reluctant to allow the British electorate to have a referendum on ANY subject in case of the outcome. For example, the administration in Scotland would like to hold one on Independence, however the opposition are reluctant in principle. |
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Member |
On an emotional level I too would have preferred a referendum here in Finland. On a rational level though, who thinks even a majority of voters would have bothered to find out what the Lisbon Treaty entails? We've voted for our representatives, and they're doing an informed decision for us. Ireland is different because any amendment to their constitution must be decided by referendum. After Ireland rejected the treaty, there are lots of different options where to go from here. I really don't see where the writer of the article got the idea that the EU will "force all nations to comply". The best outcome, I think, would be yet another version of the treaty, only more comprehensible and better explained by the MEPs to their respective countries' populace. A more likely outcome is that Ireland opts out of certain parts of the treaty. Either way, "EU democracy" is being constantly reformed to be more democratic (a big part of this treaty as well). We're not even close to the best solution yet, but "death rattle"? Please. |
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pending ban Nemesis Member |
The (EU) directives on the Lisbon Treaty are very clear: either it's ratified by ALL 27 countries, or it's dead! But now they're all back-pedalling and saying there are possibilities of still implementing it. Talk about two-faced! I was one of those who voted against the treaty, simply because it's deeply undemocratic. The French and Dutch voted against the original EU Constitution for the very same reason and the Lisbon Treaty is the exact same agreement in all but name. Given the choice, many EU nations would vote against this awful agreement, so it's not just a case of the Micks standing belligerently alone on this. MsG |
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Experienced Member |
Both France and Netherlands rejected it 3 years ago (It was called the EU Constitution); the politicians simply changed it into a “treaty” so member states wouldn’t have to run referendums. EU steam roller will simply force the Irish to vote again.  The Irish voted No to the Nice Treaty in 2001 and were asked to vote again a year later. That time they said Yes. The Danish voted No to the Maastricht Treaty in 1992 - and voted Yes a year later. The French and Dutch rejected the constitution in 2005 and the leaders designed Lisbon instead. "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
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Member |
What would prevent Ireland from having another referendum after Ireland could opt out from some parts of the treaty (like the UK for example)? Isn't that essentially what happened with the Treaty of Nice in Ireland? I agree in that it's pretty much the same agreement, only that it is done in the same way as all previous treaties (and not rewritten as a constitution). How do you see it as "deeply undemocratic"? True, but I trust my representatives to make these decisions. I have to say though that I'm disappointed about the lack of public debate by our Parliament. |
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Member |
NSNN,
The writer (conveniently) left out what happened in-between the votes. Ireland got the exceptions they wanted, Denmark got the exceptions they wanted.
Opt-outs in the European Union |
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SUSPENDED MEMBER S_S Highly Experienced Member |
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Military.com Forums Hot Topics & Current Events Point-Counterpoint E.U. DEMOCRACY IS BREATHING THE DEATH RATTLE
