Why cant we be like them?

[/sarcasm]



Nationalized Health Care is Broken
By John Stossel
link
Last week I pointed out that Michael Moore, maker of the documentary "Sicko," portrayed the Cuban health-care system as though it were utopia -- until I hit him with some inconvenient facts. So he backed off and said, "Let's stick to Canada and Britain because I think these are legitimate arguments that are made against the film and against the so-called idea of socialized medicine. And I think you should challenge me on these things."

OK, here we go.

One basic problem with nationalized health care is that it makes medical services seem free. That pushes demand beyond supply. Governments deal with that by limiting what's available.

That's why the British National Health Service recently made the pathetic promise to reduce wait times for hospital care to four months.

The wait to see dentists is so long that some Brits pull their own teeth. Dental tools: pliers and vodka.

One hospital tried to save money by not changing bed sheets every day. British papers report that instead of washing them, nurses were encouraged to just turn them over.

Government rationing of health care in Canada is why when Karen Jepp was about to give birth to quadruplets last month, she was told that all the neonatal units she could go to in Canada were too crowded. She flew to Montana to have the babies.

"People line up for care; some of them die. That's what happens," Canadian doctor David Gratzer, author of The Cure, told "20/20". Gratzer thought the Canadian system was great until he started treating patients. "The more time I spent in the Canadian system, the more I came across people waiting. ... You want to see your neurologist because of your stress headache? No problem! You just have to wait six months. You want an MRI? No problem! Free as the air! You just gotta wait six months."

Michael Moore retorts that Canadians live longer than Americans.

But Canadians' longer lives are unrelated to heath care. Canadians are less likely to get into accidents or be murdered. Take those factors into account, not to mention obesity, and Americans live longer.

Most Canadians like their free health care, but Canadian doctors tell us the system is cracking. More than a million Canadians cannot find a regular family doctor. One town holds a lottery. Once a week the town clerk gets a box out of the closet. Everyone who wants to have a family doctor puts his or her name in it. The clerk pulls out one slip to determine the winner. Others in town have to wait.

It's driven some Canadians to private for-profit clinics. A new one opens somewhere in Canada almost every week. Although it's not clear that such private clinics are legal, one is run by the president of the Canadian Medical Association, Dr. Brian Day, because under government care, he says, "We found ourselves in a situation where we were seeing sick patients and weren't being allowed to treat them. That was something that we couldn't tolerate."

Canadians stuck on waiting lists often pay "medical travel agents" to get to America for treatment. Shirley Healey had a blocked artery that kept her from digesting food. So she hired a middleman to help her get to a hospital in Washington state.

"The doctor said that I would have only had a very few weeks to live," Healey said.

Yet the Canadian government calls her surgery "elective."

"The only thing elective about this surgery was I elected to live," she said.

Not all Canadian health care is long lines and lack of innovation. We found one place where providers offer easy access to cutting-edge life-saving technology, such as CT scans. And patients rarely wait.

But they have to bark or meow to get access to this technology. Vet clinics say they can get a dog or a cat in the next day. People have to wait a month.

Yet the left and the MSM want this same thing here. Why do you suppose that is?

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Yet the left and the MSM want this same thing here. Why do you suppose that is?

Control baby!

Liberals hate competition and that and cutting the red tape are the 2 best ways to clean up our system which is better than any socialist system although flawed.

Over a million Canadians can't see a doctor? That is terrible. I don't know what could be worse. Perhaps 47 million Americans that can't see a doctor. Or perhaps over a million bankruptcies by those who do see a doctor but their insurance bails out on them. Good thing we don't have a system like that right?

I listened to John Stossel on 20/20 the other night about this very same thing. It was an interesting report. I highly encourage everyone to see if the can watch it also. It was very non-partisan and informative.

If Americans want a VA-style healthcare system, then vote for Hillaryscare. I'm already stuck in a similar system, and it sucks. It's called the VA and Tricare.

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Originally posted by Kegler300:
If Americans want a VA-style healthcare system, then vote for Hillaryscare. I'm already stuck in a similar system, and it sucks. It's called the VA and Tricare.

VA and Tricare, for all their problems, are a thousand times better than Hillarycare. Even the liberal organizations and newspapers are against her. She takes an already corrupt system run by the insurance companies and mandates them more customers without any regulations. Pharma, which is just as responsible for the horrible state our system is in, is only encouraged to lower prices. Encouraged by what? Their sense of community or patriotism? The same people who have no problem testing experimental drugs on third world nations is expected to do the right thing out of the kindness of their hearts?

It is better than Hilleryscare...that's what is so scary! Most Americans just don't know where this might lead us.

Actually, anyone here CAN see a Doctor! All you have to do is PAY THE DOCTOR. Now in thisarea, even non-english speeking aliens are paid $14 per hour on average and work 10 hour days. In addition, they live 2 famlies of 6-8 adults each family in 1 family dwellings, there is more than enough to cover any basics. MORE, if they need hospitalization, they GET IT and we TAXPAYERS pay it! All anyone at all need do is go to an emergency room. Hell, the MD's sometimes send them there with a NOTE!

The TAXPAYER covers.

In Canade there are 30 million total and 1 million CANNOT get medicat attention at all.

Here we have a number without insurance but EVERY ONE can get treatment by 1) PAYING FOR THE SERVACE , NOVEL FREEKING IDEA, EH?

2) BY BEING INDIGENT and sticking the taxpayer with it.

I has the bad luck to be hospitalized between 8-13-04 to 2-4-05 damned near died twice trhat I can recall. During that time I was at three different hospitals and came in contact with MANY indigent, uninsured, underinsured and/or illegal aliens.

We all got the same quality of care EXECPT those few with 24 hr pvt duty nurse covered. They, whild they got the pvt duty nurses, were RESENTED by the duty nursing staff, so their care was slower coming than it might have been.

Anyway, Care is available3 for all here, but completely unav ailable where it is free! Go figure.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: peter3_1,

quote:

Originally posted by Kegler300:
If Americans want a VA-style healthcare system, then vote for Hillaryscare. I'm already stuck in a similar system, and it sucks. It's called the VA and Tricare.

That's just silly. I am starting to doubt you understand what she is advocating. She is not calling for a single-payer system or government-ran health care. Hillary is only advocating small changes to insurance, not delivery.

The VA and TriCare are completely different because they have large amounts of governmental health care delivery - again, something she is not advocating.

Hillary advocates individual mandates for everyone to have insurance. They would still go see the exact same doctors and same private hospitals that they are used to. If you are happy with your private insurance and your doctors, you get to keep them. No change.

The big difference is she is hoping to allow the public MORE CHOICES by allowing them to buy into Medicare or the federal employee's insurance plan.

Why do you oppose giving the public more options?

or, do you just oppose individual mandates?

Oohhh wow... Stossel goes after the Canadian system.

Funny how he doesn't mention the French, the Japanese, the Swiss, the New Zealand, the Italian, or any of the other 19 countries that rank higher than Canada.

Canada does not have the best system, they don't say they have the best system, and nobody I know of who studies this issue thinks they are the best.

That being said, they are still significantly more effective and efficient than our current system.

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That being said, they are still significantly more effective and efficient than our current system.

What a stoop you are.

Another thing...

Most clinics and hospitals in Canada ARE private. They are for profit. The vast vast majority of doctors and nurses are in private practice.

They bill Medicare for services, but operate for-profit.


And the scarcity of doctors in certain regions has nothing to do with the insurance and health care finance system. It has to do with the fact that Canada has a huge land mass and its population is so spread out. You go to remote places like rural southeast Oregon, Nevada, or Alaska and you'll have the same problems.

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Originally posted by soscorpio:

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That being said, they are still significantly more effective and efficient than our current system.

What a stoop you are.

The stats back that up. By almost all metrics, they are superior. More importantly, they insure a greater percentage of heir population for a fraction of the cost (as % of GDP and per capita).

Call me a stoop, but you sir, are just plain stoopid.

Do you want to debate actual facts and figures? You want to present some statistics?

Our medical system functioned before gov't got involved in the '80's. You could pay the doctor with eggs back before then.

Why do you think they messed with it? So that they could get control of it and you are falling right in the trap.

Americans don't have the education level of those "industrialized" socialist countries. That is why we can be talked out of the good attributes of our Constitution and accept socialism.

It's easy to sell snake oil to a dumb fucquer.

quote:

Do you want to debate actual facts and figures?

here's a fact straight from a canadian:

From Link:

Kim
While living in the USA several years ago I found a lump in my breast. I went to the doctor the next day, she had me in for a ultrasound and mam the very next day. We are now living in Canada again, this time my doctor here found a lump, she sent me to a specialist ( 10 1/2 weeks it took), still haven't had a mam. This Canadian system is scary, and needs to be fixed! I too if I had the money would seek treatment in the USA.

quote:

Originally posted by soscorpio:
Our medical system functioned before gov't got involved in the '80's. You could pay the doctor with eggs back before then.

Now that's just batshit insane.

quote:

Originally posted by soscorpio:
Why do you think they messed with it? So that they could get control of it and you are falling right in the trap.

Americans don't have the education level of those "industrialized" socialist countries. That is why we can be talked out of the good attributes of our Constitution and accept socialism.

It's easy to sell snake oil to a dumb fucquer.

You are one loony parnoid conspiracy nut sir. Loosen that tin foil hat.

quote:

Originally posted by soscorpio:

quote:

Do you want to debate actual facts and figures?

here's a fact straight from a canadian:

From Link:

Kim
While living in the USA several years ago I found a lump in my breast. I went to the doctor the next day, she had me in for a ultrasound and mam the very next day. We are now living in Canada again, this time my doctor here found a lump, she sent me to a specialist ( 10 1/2 weeks it took), still haven't had a mam. This Canadian system is scary, and needs to be fixed! I too if I had the money would seek treatment in the USA.

No, sir...

That is an uncorroborated anecdote. Nothing more.

But keep swinging there, slugger.

quote:

That is an uncorroborated anecdote. Nothing more

like a comparison to how Japan runs health care to what our system "could" be like is some type of fact?

Dude, the quality of their fish markets will never be attained here.

Get a good job and PAY for your own healthcare or move to one of those socialt "heavens" you are referring too.

Liberalism is what is ruining America, you can't apply more liberalism and expect to correct it. You're fricken insane dude.

You are living in the WRONG country.

quote:

Originally posted by soscorpio:

quote:

That is an uncorroborated anecdote. Nothing more

like a comparison to how Japan runs health care to what our system "could" be like is some type of fact?

Nobody is advocating a wholesale adoption of any one nation's system.

What most UHC advocates want is for us to examine all the elements that work in other countries and make a new uniquely American solution that will give 100% coverage, at a better cost, and place us at #1.

We are the greatest nation on earth. It is criminal that we rank #37.

The simple fact is other countries have systems that work better than ours. Pragmatism would dictate that we examine theirs to improve ours.