BTW, Ranger, you had an advantage I did not. I went on active duty when there was NO GI Bill. VEAP and the VEGIB had just ended and there was no Montgomery yet. Yet was able to get my education and I didn't ***** about it, either. I just revel in the accomplishment. It is pointless to complain when you are the only one who hears the complaint. You are on here complaining to a bunch of guys who see you as just another freakin' whiner. And I quite frankly don't even care. I care that the guys come home without being stuffed in that plastic burrito. In my time, I have filled more than I liked. But I didn't complain. I did my job and was only too happy to do it. Contempt was not in my nature, let alone my language. Those appointed over me had the experience or the education that I did not and that was why I agreed to be paid less than they. You made the same choice. Now you complain about it.

quote:

Originally posted by PeteCDR:
BTW, Ranger, you had an advantage I did not. I went on active duty when there was NO GI Bill. VEAP and the VEGIB had just ended and there was no Montgomery yet. Yet was able to get my education and I didn't ***** about it, either. I just revel in the accomplishment. It is pointless to complain when you are the only one who hears the complaint. You are on here complaining to a bunch of guys who see you as just another freakin' whiner. And I quite frankly don't even care. I care that the guys come home without being stuffed in that plastic burrito. In my time, I have filled more than I liked. But I didn't complain. I did my job and was only too happy to do it. Contempt was not in my nature, let alone my language. Those appointed over me had the experience or the education that I did not and that was why I agreed to be paid less than they. You made the same choice. Now you complain about it.

Waste of time Pete... Most people like this want everything spoon fed to them! To work for it, or figure it out on their own, is to much to ask.

Again folks, It comes back to the fact that the Bush Administration, John McCain and Republicans just care about the party. Their whole support the troops rhetoric is crap because they don't want to give Veterans a GI Bill worthy of their service....There are veterans in the senate(highly respect might I add) who are coming out with Bi-Partisan support for the bill, one is even a Navy Cross recipient...

When someone wants to give veterans something that will benefit them and President Bush does not they become whiners, you guys been keeping track?

quote:

Originally posted by Aco275RGR:
Again folks, It comes back to the fact that the Bush Administration, John McCain and Republicans just care about the party. Their whole support the troops rhetoric is crap because they don't want to give Veterans a GI Bill worthy of their service....There are veterans in the senate(highly respect might I add) who are coming out with Bi-Partisan support for the bill, one is even a Navy Cross recipient...

When someone wants to give veterans something that will benefit them and President Bush does not they become whiners, you guys been keeping track?

Seems the Active troops do not agree with ya... or why is it that they are re-enlisting, enlisting and extending in monumental proportions?? Seems you are talking out you *** again boot, with nothing to back up your allegations that could be criminal in nature.

Everyone agrees, everyone, that America's future is utterly dependent upon our people having the best education available. Everyone agrees that to compete globally, we need to be the most innovative if we wish to have high paying jobs that aren't quickly farmed out as low paying jobs abroad. So why would anyone disagree with allowing those who've paid the ultimate sacrifice for their country in war to get the education that we all agree is necessary? This is a public service that will pay rich rewards for generations. I'm sorry to say McCains generation is responsible for taxing our children to pay for their own benefits, their own retirements, their own IRAs. They've literally eaten their young so they can get old and fat. It's time for someone else, younger, smarter and all around better.

An enhanced G.I. Bill seems warranted given the almost exponential increases in the cost of a college education; however, a complete free ride at a state university at an estimated cost of $57 billion for any military member who has served only three years certainly is more than warranted and more than we can afford in my view.

Obviously, nearly all on here are veterans, and no one is deriding any of the benefits deserved and "earned" for service to country, but we do have to quantify how much that service is worth in additional cost. I side with DoD on this one -- there are some genuine cost and retention concerns here, and there is certainly room for compromise beyond the existing program and less than the proposed Webb bill.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: NOVAMarine,

ranger---

I don't remember your *** lying in the bed next to me in the 3rd Med aid station when doctors were talking about the possibility of them taking my leg off after I got hit.

Don't sit there and tell me what I'm owed or anything else.

The GI Bill that me and many others used got us our education and we aren't complaining.--You, on the other hand, are the one whining and it is really getting to the point that you sound just like all the other whiners, *****ers I ever heard in 30 years of service--just another of the 10%s.

quote:

Originally posted by undercoversister:
Everyone agrees, everyone, that America's future is utterly dependent upon our people having the best education available. Everyone agrees that to compete globally, we need to be the most innovative if we wish to have high paying jobs that aren't quickly farmed out as low paying jobs abroad. So why would anyone disagree with allowing those who've paid the ultimate sacrifice for their country in war to get the education that we all agree is necessary? This is a public service that will pay rich rewards for generations. I'm sorry to say McCains generation is responsible for taxing our children to pay for their own benefits, their own retirements, their own IRAs. They've literally eaten their young so they can get old and fat. It's time for someone else, younger, smarter and all around better.

And that is why we have 90 plus students(who were probably GIVEN their educations by their parents) under arrest now, suspended from school, with several of them who were slated to receive their degrees now NOT getting them. Because they - part of EVERYONE - thought that "America's future is utterly dependent upon our people having the best education available." Are you considering the "school of hard knocks" part of that curriculum? I think you need to understand that a large bloc of our population don't really give a damn about educating our people, let alone our troops. They only care about what they can get from the government and how to have it handed to them.

As I said before, there are several states that have laws similar to the Hazlewood Act in which a veteran from that state (in Texas, you have to have entered the service from Texas) can receive a free education. It should not be at the full expense of the fed. After all, where will that money come from?

quote:

Originally posted by Aco275RGR:
Again folks, It comes back to the fact that the Bush Administration, John McCain and Republicans just care about the party. Their whole support the troops rhetoric is crap because they don't want to give Veterans a GI Bill worthy of their service....There are veterans in the senate(highly respect might I add) who are coming out with Bi-Partisan support for the bill, one is even a Navy Cross recipient...

When someone wants to give veterans something that will benefit them and President Bush does not they become whiners, you guys been keeping track?

what kind of GI Bill will satisfy your greed? a100% to any collage ie Ivy League with room/board/book and all fees paid while you act like any other collage type?
why did you join????Methink you have other motives other that god and country....JMO

quote:

Originally posted by NOVAMarine:
An enhanced G.I. Bill seems warranted given the almost exponential increases in the cost of a college education; however, a complete free ride at a state university at an estimated cost of $57 billion for any military member who has served only three years certainly is more than warranted and more than we can afford in my view.

Obviously, nearly all on here are veterans, and no one is deriding any of the benefits deserved and "earned" for service to country, but we do have to quantify how much that service is worth in additional cost. I side with DoD on this one -- there are some genuine cost and retention concerns here, and there is certainly room for compromise beyond the existing program and less than the proposed Webb bill.

This I totally agree with. There has been a scale for GI Bill benefits for the last few decades as far as I know that gives more money for time and type of service. I'm not here asking for total cost coverage, just something reasonable. The GI Bill I get now helps a lot but it doesn't begin to cover my college costs. We need something on the scale of what WWII vets got.

The cost of $57 Billion is over ten years, so the cost of the GI Bill per year is about equal to a week of the Iraq war costs.

I am surprised at the opposition. A lot of it seems to be at lot of "What about me?" from the pre-9/11 veterans. I say those serving now deserve at least as much as what I got with the Vietnam-era GI Bill, and certainly better than the programs now which require them to pay up front.

quote:

Originally posted by Migbuster:

quote:

Originally posted by Aco275RGR:
Again folks, It comes back to the fact that the Bush Administration, John McCain and Republicans just care about the party. Their whole support the troops rhetoric is crap because they don't want to give Veterans a GI Bill worthy of their service....There are veterans in the senate(highly respect might I add) who are coming out with Bi-Partisan support for the bill, one is even a Navy Cross recipient...

When someone wants to give veterans something that will benefit them and President Bush does not they become whiners, you guys been keeping track?

what kind of GI Bill will satisfy your greed? a100% to any collage ie Ivy League with room/board/book and all fees paid while you act like any other collage type?
why did you join????Methink you have other motives other that god and country....JMO

jeesh, you forgot the stipend for the weekend beer bash. Can't forget that we have to provide everything.

How many of these anti-GI Bill posters have "Support Our Troops" stickers/magnets on their vehicles?

All this nonsense about "funding the troops" stops when it's time to actually do something for the troops.

quote:

Originally posted by BabySupine:
How many of these anti-GI Bill posters have "Support Our Troops" stickers/magnets on their vehicles?

All this nonsense about "funding the troops" stops when it's time to actually do something for the troops.

well giving soldiers $30,000-$40,000 a year for ivy league college is way too excessive... stick with state colleges or go to west point or annolopis(sp)... yea really whats wrong with west point??? hell iwould love to go to west point...

quote:

Originally posted by BabySupine:
The cost of $57 Billion is over ten years, so the cost of the GI Bill per year is about equal to a week of the Iraq war costs.

I am surprised at the opposition. A lot of it seems to be at lot of "What about me?" from the pre-9/11 veterans. I say those serving now deserve at least as much as what I got with the Vietnam-era GI Bill, and certainly better than the programs now which require them to pay up front.

See to me, it's kind of hard to give billions in contracts which are never finished and then complain about paying a fraction of that to cover soldier's educations. Funny how one is a bolshevik handout and the other is good capitalism. But hey it's ok because 40 years ago when education was proportionally much much cheaper someone's step-father's aunt payed for college themselves.

Well, in a way, giving all servicemembers the same amount of money on which to attend school when the members don't finish (in some cases) is the same as paying an unfinished contract. What is the difference. A few posts ago, I mentioned VEAP money. That is a prime example. I knew many who got that money and not one of them used it for college.

quote:

well giving soldiers $30,000-$40,000 a year for ivy league college is way too excessive...

The bill does not cover an "ivy league" education, it covers in-state tuition at the veteran's home state university, so get your facts straight.

quote:

Originally posted by BabySupine:

quote:

well giving soldiers $30,000-$40,000 a year for ivy league college is way too excessive...

The bill does not cover an "ivy league" education, it covers in-state tuition at the veteran's home state university, so get your facts straight.

He was referring to the guy who wants the fed to fund 100% of tuition at any institution, not one of the bills before Congress.

quote:

BTW, Ranger, you had an advantage I did not. I went on active duty when there was NO GI Bill. VEAP and the VEGIB had just ended and there was no Montgomery yet.

There is no date in which that could have been possible, as long as you met mimimum service requirements. Before January 1, 1977, there was the Vietnam Era GI Bill. On January 1, 1977, you were eligible for VEAP, until June 30, 1985. On July 1, 1985, the Montgomery GI Bill took over.

quote:

Originally posted by PeteCDR:

quote:

Originally posted by alcyone:
the same old tired azz "stay the course" nonsense.

It may be nonsense to you, but insulting the majority of Americans who kept the CinC in command because of it is no way to make a favorable impression. We can say the same about your same old tired-*** "out of Iraq - they're in civil war" bullshit, too. It seems you don't know the difference between fantasy/utopianism/idealism and realism/reality. You make up definitions as you go on. Brother, I think you need to defer to people with more knowledge than you. I think you are lost in the hollywierd fantasy island crapola that is printed everyday in the LA Slimes or the NY Slimes. Either way, you really don't seem to get it. President Bush was a far superior CinC than Carter, or LBJ, or WJC. So peddle malcontent elsewhere.

Pete, I'm not "insulting" the Americans who voted to keep him in (or in the first place), they made their choices and by them so they are judged. And in terms of "making a favorable impression" that cannot take priority over speaking the Truth as I see it.

And what part of "being in a civil war" is incorrect? (Even if this administration cringes everytime it is said?) They ARE in a "civil war" whether it slips down the throat smoothly or not. It is only by a massive effort on our part and the consumption of massive resources and lives that it doesn't explode in our faces and spill out all over the planet.

As to my "inability to recognize reality", my question to you would be "What exactly IS reality"? Where is it to be found? Do you think your senses portray what is actually "out there"? Reality is only in the eye of the beholder. And because we share a common physical sense mechanism (more or less) we generate a "consensus reality", which everyone has more or less agreed upon. (Except those who walk on fire and don't get burnt--or see Angels--or have polterguiests in their houses,etc) It appears that "Reality" is not as firm and cast in stone as we would be lead to believe.

Most of us take a pragmatic approach. We may not know what "reality' is, but the potatoes taste good and the fire keeps us warm. The philosophical questions we put on the back burner to investigate "someday" (Which never seems to arrive)

Be that as it may.

You apparently are refusing to accept the consensis reality that GWB and Co. is out of touch with reality. And since this man has surrounded himself only with people who are in agreement with his ideas, how else can it be? Leaders through history (Kings, Emperors,etc) have had to make special efforts to reach out from their tower of power to find out what the common man believes.

It appears the GWB has done the exact opposite and cloistered himelf in his tower, isolating himself from the people. Cheney has BLUNTLY demonstrated that the thinking at his level is that public opinion is to be scorned and ignored. How then, can they possible be in touch with the consensus reality of the people?

Not possible. They do not have the right attitude to accomplish that.

80% Disapprove of GWB's policies. However YOU and your 20% still cling to your view. Your view is out of step with what 4 out of 5 Americans are feeling. I would think that would give you some pause and cause a serious introspection within yourself to gain some understanding of what they are seeing and NOT be so strong in your support of your view until you're made a really thorough review and a strong attempt to try and see the same things they are seeing.

Of course your view may be completely correct (in that it works for you), but because of the disconnect with the other 80%, support and effective action will be impeeded in anything that you try and accomplish in regards to this situation.