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Military.com Forums Hot Topics & Current Events Point-Counterpoint Where Did Our FREEDOM Go?|
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When I look at the flag waving so majestically in the breeze, I think back to the founding of this great country. What the founders fought and died for was Freedom. Nothing less would do. To be released from the tyranny of an oppressive government with too many rules, regulations and taxes that burdened the common man to the point of breaking his back.
They forged ahead with the wild dream of freedom, where a man could live in peace and strive unfettered by government regulation and law to be the best that he could be, to achieve all that he could for himself and his family. Some thought they were radical. Some thought they were insane. But a few men garnered the guts to stand up for what they felt was right and fight for what they believed in. Thanks to them, they threw off their bonds and forged a new nation through blood, sweat and tears. They drew up papers insuring the rights of the people and limiting governmental powers. They drew together states, each separate from each other with their own needs under a centralized government, again insuring that the powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, were reserved to the States respectively, or to the people (10th Amend.) At that time, the people were truly free. If they wanted to open a business there was no Federal red tape, no applying for and paying a fee for a license to do so. If they wanted to go hunting to put food on the table, again, no license to buy for hunting/fishing OR buying any weapon he so chose to us for hunting or protecting his family and property. He could carry his gun in plain sight anywhere he wished without worry of confiscation or arrest. Schools actually taught Reading, Writing and Math with a healthy dose of History and Civics instead of multi-culturalism and safe sex. They didn't buy into teaching theory as fact or saying a child can not pray or say the Pledge of Allegiance. The government didn't intrude on his private life telling him what he should/could eat, drink or even smoke. They didn't tell him that he couldn't bring his bible to work or any other place he wished (1st Amend.) Nor did they tax a person to death for the choices they made in that area. People didn't sue each other over the smallest infraction, they may have fought even physically but that was their RIGHT to do so. They took care of themselves and each other. If a family was going hungry, the community would help them. If someone was sick and couldn't pay a doctor with money, they still got help and payed what they could with what they had. Doctors didn't have to worry about being sued for malpractice. Charity towards one's fellow man was abundant even if not always taken. The Federal Government positions weren't 'jobs,' they were appointments by the people to do the people's will. They got paid a small amount for their position while in session, but never quit their jobs to live off of the people's money. With all this freedom, our country grew to be the greatest nation in the world. The U.S. Constitution has the oldest written national framework of government in the world. This didn't come cheaply. There was a price to pay for keeping this country free and that price was blood! Now it seems we want to give away all of our freedoms. Slowly they've (the government and other powers) have been chipping away, eroding and diluting our Constitution until it's barely recognizable. If they can't make a law because of Constitutionality 'problems' they simply regulate until it's next to impossible to achieve, thus, in all practicality, killing the people's rights. There are those that say they would give up some of their freedoms for safety and security in life. Ben Franklin said it best when he made these statements: Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. And: All human situations have their inconveniences. We feel those of the present but neither see nor feel those of the future; and hence we often make troublesome changes without amendment, and frequently for the worse. Thomas Jefferson: I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it. Patricia Sampson: Self-reliance is the only road to true freedom, and being one's own person is it's ultimate reward. Liberty isn't easy. It means you're on your own to sink or swim. It's up to you. People don't realize that a "life line" is still a rope that binds you to whatever is on the other end. Liberty or slavery is the choice we make. There really isn't an in between. If you borrow money, the borrower is indebted to the loaner and toils for that person until the debt pays off. If you are willing to pay taxes in order for the government to feed, clothe, house, and take care of your physical well being then you are enslaved to that government and held by it's rules. You must do what it says, take what it says and live how it says under it's supervision or lose all, all the while working harder to give that money to them to dole to you how they see fit. If that's not slavery, I don't know what is. I'm with Patrick Henry on this one! |
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Everything comes with a price. Guv'ment programs, Patriot Act, etc.
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Let's not forget that a major sticking point in drafting the declaration of independence was the issue for slavery - some of those great men were damn sure fighting for that!
Yeah, that "no hunting license" thing worked out well for the buffalo. And they chose not to regulate weapons in an era when the difference between the difference between the best military weapons and the best hunting weapons were primarily those of quality. Would they make the same decisions now, in the era of the M82, M79, and M60?
And in most places still can - hence the guy with the assault rifle at the protest. Admittedly, now that most people do not openly carry, the ones who do attract a lot of attention, but hey - you can do it!
They also taught some of my ancestors that speaking their native tongue and praying to their own gods was a crime. And we were here first. Thanks for that.
The government also did not protect him from vendors who thought that green meat was okay if you scraped off the outer layer, provide clean water, or check to see if you were being poisoned by modern chemistry. My coworker has a bible in his desk, and there is no company policy prohibiting it so long as he does not preach, and if he did start preaching it would the company policy that would get him, not federal law.  Oh, and tax rates are pretty low for this century - you know, the century where the US exploded onto the scene as a world power.
People did sue each other quite often, and often over small things, and assault was still a crime.
Assuming that they were the same color and religion, sure! Or if not, then assuming they were illing to make the effort to TRY to be the same color and religion.
Ah, the good old days when the best medical care cost less than buying a house! A doctor could afford to give quality care as charity without bankrupting himself! Of course, without regulation, the doctor was really more likely a "doctor" who spent most of their time shaving people or perhaps elbow-deep in sheep.
Assuming you are referring to elected positions (because otherwise this is wrong in extra ways), one of the big debates in public office of the time was when it was appropriate to substitute one's own more educated opinion for that of the people's. And they did get paid a small stipend, but that was not an issue because they all had large chunks of money of their own, and employees to attend the estates while they were away governing. Paying officials a salary allows the NON-rich to go into office. I don't know about you, but I could not feed my family for nothing from half a country away.
What? I think I need a ruling on this one...
Any specific complaints? The majority of supreme court decisions have to do with using very broadly worded constitutional statements to resolve very specific legal quetions that could not be anticipated two centuries ago.
A great statement against the Patriot Act.
And yet, going with that analogy, I have heard very few tales of people drowning at sea because they refused a lifeline. Hmm. Strange.
Isn't it nice that everything is black and white? I must be a slave, because I do not have the liberty to go out and kill people.
Ummm... the only people whom I know of who are (a) paying taxes and (b) being fed, clothed, housed, and taken care of by the government are military. See, most people do one or the other. And it is because people occasionally switch between them that we keep the system. Or are you talking about generalities, like the onus of taxes? Because most people agree that taxes are a necessary evil and that it is much more worthwhile to address specific areas where money is misspent, or where taxation falls unduly on a particular group (like the wealthy without whom nothing would get done). |
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Experienced Member |
That's a state function... it's interesting to see the juxtaposition of your promotion of powers not delegated by the constitution to the states and then see you slam the states for creating the power to license.
... again... a power given to the states not delegated by the federal government... are you sure you know how our system of government works?
... interestingly enough, almost all of the nation's first gun laws (and the majority that exist to this day) are state laws, not federal . Ironically, it was a federal case which eased restriction of concealed carry in the 1990s. The Pledge wasn't even written until more than 100 years after our country was founded. Also, theory has been taught in our schools for a very long time. I don't think you fully understand the meaning of scientific theory (analytical structure designed to explain a set of distinct observations). How your cells work in your body is still know as "Cell Theory" (even though not much new has been learned about that area of study for quite some time). The study of how our government works and the differences in our political beliefs is still called "political theory". Mathematics still falls into categories of theory (set theory, number theory, game theory... etc.)
Okay... the First Amendment does not guarantee this - especially the bit about bringing your bible to work. The only thing the first amendment guarantees you in regards to speech is that you cannot have it controlled or silenced by THE GOVERNMENT. Only from the government! If your employer says you can't bring your bible to work, and you do anyway, he can fire you without fear of reprisal. Get it?
... the fact is, people still don't sue each other all that much. Most frivolous suits never get past their initial filing, the belief that they somehow do (that the courts are just clogged to the brim with superfluous suits, is a myth). Physically assaulting someone, even in our distant history, has never been a right.
No. Sorry to say your deluded Courier and Ives vision of what it must have been like is way off. It was far more Dickensian. There was no social safety net in place so, as people became widowed, orphaned, disabled, laid off or what have you. When families lost their homes due to fires or natural disasters they had no where to turn except to apply for "poor relief". As the rolls of applicant's grew - and taxpayers became more angry about what to do with them - local governments responded by simply denying all relief... except poorhouses. The poorhouse system remained in place for more than 100 years before the federal government finally stepped in.
Again... you're deluded. Medical care was a nightmare at the outset of our country. It was not uncommon for visitors from other countries to go back and retell the horrors they witnessed. http://www.mnwelldir.org/docs/history/history03.htm
... more fantasy... read up on poorhouses in America.
Partly true, but mostly false. Sure, certain higher offices had fewer demands that could afford a public official the ability to maintain whatever his other (probably far more profitable) job was, but most bureaucrats fell into the life of full time public servant pretty fast
Ooooo everyone take out your flags and wave them proudly... ... the rest gets pretty predictable, except I wanted to comment on one other point:
Like Civil Rights for instance... yeah, I tell ya... those troublesome changes we've made.  |
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Highly Experienced Member |
I'll take these as I have time. This is statement is false. You need to look at local laws and what was actually done in cities and towns because people were often not allowed to openly carry weapons, especially if they were poor. In fact in many areas people would get harassed or arrested for openly carrying firearms. Plus there is a difference between what works with 3 Million people and what works with 300 million people |
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People are so busy nit picking that they completely miss the subtle, broader message. They are to busy criticizing each brush stroke to see the big picture.
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Experienced Member |
Well, when the subtle strokes of the broader message are based primarily in bulls#!t, that's to be expected. |
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I don't understand why some of you are some of you refuting this copy & paste job point by point.
You can file this next to the hundreds of chicken-little-right-wing-chain-emails. |
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Experienced Member |
Fresh meat... |
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I was just going to sit back and watch until somebody had the guts to tell the empress she has no clothes. |
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And they say the right is a bunch of hate mongers. So far all I've gotten from the Left is the spreading of Hate and Discontent instead of simple, civil debate. That's fine with me. Rolls off like water off a duck's back. I'll tell you what. Why don't you tell me what's GOOD about this government now? Enlighten me please |
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Highly Experienced Member |
Marine5711 this is BS. This country is great and compared to many others our history is fairly clean BUT you need to read some real history not the cleaned up RA RA RA version. For example a lot of this nation was build on stealing land from others. Examples: * The Cherokees were US allies and there land was taken. The courts said it was illegal but the President did it anyway. * Florida was taken because the Spanish were busy * Hawaii, a friendly nation, was taken because some US merchants convinced a Naval officer to exceed his orders and they stole the land for themselves. * Indian lands promised to be safe by LEGAL treaty were stolen many times. * Land and other properties held by racial and religious minorities were often taken. One large example being what was done to Mormons and there are many documented cases of courts not uphold the legal claims of minorities if a white, especially one with a local power base, decided to claim it. For much of the history of this country minorities had legal rights only as long as the majority did not want what they had. |
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Highly Experienced Member |
amb94 people did it then as well but almost all such news was local only and if a person made sure to restrict such actions to a disliked minority they might actually be given medals for killing unarmed men, women and childern. |
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Let's not forget that a major sticking point in drafting the declaration of independence was the issue for slavery - some of those great men were damn sure fighting for that! Yes, they may have been wrong for sticking up for that cause, but now we're all slaves-to the government. Really? What is your definition of a slave? I have a multitude of rights and freedoms, including the rights to petition my government for a redress of wrongs and the right to run for office or support another in exercising their right to do so. Failing all that, if I feel my voice is still not heard I can freely go to another country, or try to create my own - as I have been advised to do so many times.
And in most places still can - hence the guy with the assault rifle at the protest. Admittedly, now that most people do not openly carry, the ones who do attract a lot of attention, but hey - you can do it! People minded their own business then. Now people have sick minds, and go out killing people for no reason. That has always happened. When anthropologists made their first prolonged studies of the Inuit (who were still living in the old style at the time) one of the stories they were told were the responsibilities of men, including the killing of dangerous members of the group. What is different now is that (a) weapons are more dangerous and (b) national publicity makes it more attractive to certain sick people. Wait.. how is this relevent?
They also taught some of my ancestors that speaking their native tongue and praying to their own gods was a crime. And we were here first. Thanks for that. Why shouldn't God be allowed in classrooms? So it's fair that someone could go around wearing an "I hate God" t-shirt, but another not be allowed to carry a Bible around? Which God? And where have people been prevented from carrying a bible?
The government also did not protect him from vendors who thought that green meat was okay if you scraped off the outer layer, provide clean water, or check to see if you were being poisoned by modern chemistry. My coworker has a bible in his desk, and there is no company policy prohibiting it so long as he does not preach, and if he did start preaching it would the company policy that would get him, not federal law. Oh, and tax rates are pretty low for this century - you know, the century where the US exploded onto the scene as a world power. Personally, I would rather find out for myself if I have clean meat or not. And who says they care about that anyway. They treat meat in certain stores with carbon monoxide just to keep meat red longer. This stuff gets approved by the FDA?! Yeah, they care about our safety alright. I hope you are qualified to make that evaluation - it gets pretty tricky with a lot of foods. I personally disagree with the CO trick but the studies show that it is not harmful - just deceptive. I personally thinks the FDA does an okay job, if not great. Have people been getting poisoned by companies following FDA rules?
People did sue each other quite often, and often over small things, and assault was still a crime. People couldn't have sued too frequently, because they didn't have that much money. Where did you get your facts from? They still sued, they just got less. I get this from my wife - she is studying historical archaeology (colonial period) which involves a lot of going over documents from the time. She has commented on the number recorded.
Assuming you are referring to elected positions (because otherwise this is wrong in extra ways), one of the big debates in public office of the time was when it was appropriate to substitute one's own more educated opinion for that of the people's. And they did get paid a small stipend, but that was not an issue because they all had large chunks of money of their own, and employees to attend the estates while they were away governing. Paying officials a salary allows the NON-rich to go into office. I don't know about you, but I could not feed my family for nothing from half a country away. I'm sure you've realized that our government gets paid way to much, and spends your money on stupid things. How about the eight elite private jets they were considering getting. What for?! This was not about federal spending, but about salaries paid to elected officials. In that regard, the stupidity is their problem, not mine.
Any specific complaints? The majority of supreme court decisions have to do with using very broadly worded constitutional statements to resolve very specific legal quetions that could not be anticipated two centuries ago. Why don't they just rip up the Constitution? They might as well. They veer farther from it with each new law they set into place. Again, any specific complaints? Any reason I should take your interpretation as being above that of the SCOTUS? |
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In my opinion, there are definitely more killings today and a lot more "sick" people. But then again, neither of us lived then so we can't really say. |
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Highly Experienced Member |
Looks like someone is feeling all persecuted for being told her copy and paste jobs was full of false amd misleading statements. FYI Marine5711 you do NOT have to be conservative to love and support this country and you do NOT have to be liberal to think that pointing out mistakes and what is wrong can make the country even better. You can't fix problems if you refuse to admit there even can be a problem. |
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Because large arguments are made out of small arguments - something you demonstrated in your original post. If the small arguments do not add up, how then can the large argument? |
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Mrs. Marine Wife, it sounds like you just described the U.S. military. |
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New Member |
Okay, so NOBODY can tell me what's good about this government we have in place now?
Figures.. still focused on negativism |
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Highly Experienced Member |
Smells a bit stale, if you ask me! It is not our belief or disbelief that can make or unmake the fact. ~ Thomas Paine |
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If you haven't figured out by now what is good about "this government," then I have no time for you. It was the same "government" that GWBush headed up, and Bill Clinton and George HW Bush, and Reagan headed up before them. It is a government OF the people, BY the people, and FOR the people. Does that ring a bell? |
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This from someone who spent two pages enumerating complaints? I think this is the greatest country in the world - no perfect, but better than the rest (I admit I am biased). I have great freedoms, especially those of the first two amendments. I have great opportunities for education and employment. I and my family are protected by the greatest military in the world. And our government provides great home entertainment in the form of the antics of our elected officials. Feel better? |
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Okay, for you people in Rio Linda, let me say this reallllly slow. PEOPLE, aka Joe Blow on the street or Jane (i.e. the woman tape stating we don't have to worry anymore about paying our mortgage, buying gas, etc.) Those people who want the government to develop more and more entitlement programs so they don't have to worry about doing anything for themselves.. NOT the US Military. Did that shed a little light on the subject? Can your mind comprehend that most people don't want their hard earned money going to the government so they can dole it out to people who are to lazy to get off their couches and work? Who have their hand out to the government like a bird with it's mouth wide open saying FEED ME! I for one am not opposed to giving a hand up, but I sure as hell don't believe in hand OUTS. Higher taxes to fund a UHS that has not worked in any country it's been tried in. Find me ONE article praising it in any country, I DARE you and I'll show you 100 more to the contrary. I've lived in another country that had that, NOBODY was happy with it. The news was filled with stories of people complaining of 5 year waits to have a tooth pulled, of surgeries they couldn't get because of a waiting list etc. If they can't make Medicaid work, what makes any rational person believe they can bulk it up and make it work without costing us the shirts off our backs? Paleeze wake up and smell the printer's ink on the paper they are printing at the Fed! They OWN us (U.S.) They have limitless amounts of money they can lend. Just go to the computer and viola! Suddenly there's another Trillion on the Government's debt book. I'm sure someone is going to dispute that but that is simply because you have NO clue since you walk around with blinders on. I've never said I have ANY party affiliation. And please don't lecture me on racism. I am a card carrying Choctaw so I think I might understand that just a little bit. |
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Uh ... "Rio Linda" ... ? What point are you trying to make? |
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New Member |
I'll be intersted to see if you can come up with anything else, because there's getting to be little else to argue about. |
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Actually I do believe I heard that somewhere before. Just not recently as our government tends to believe that we are to STUPID to decide things for ourselves. They know what's best for us even if we don't. People have the right to protest and redress for grievances yet when they do they are described as fanatics summarily dismissed. Who is anyone to say they didn't have the right to march and be heard? Only the left can do that? Is that the way it works? Anyone else has to be out of their minds and mentally retarded. *hops back on her short bus and heads out to the real world* |
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Highly Experienced Member |
In colonial times and during the early US period most law suits were the Rich suing the poor. Over time this slowly evolved into everyone having access to the courts but the studies I've seen show the number of cases per capita are similar. Some recent facts on the Myth that lawsuits are increasing. also note that Plaintiffs have won more often with Judges than with Juries which shoots the activist jury myth in the foot. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/civil.htm
"http://www.justice.org/cps/rde/xchg/justice/hs.xsl/2011.htm
"http://honolulu.injuryboard.com/medical-malpractice/tort-reform-myth-the-number-of-lawsuits-is-skyrocketing.aspx?googleid=262292
"http://www.personal-injury-info.net/tort-reform.htm
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"Triumph over bygone sorrow, can in unity be won." |
I can give you 5 excellent examples of what's good about the government we have in place now. 1. United States Army 2. United States Navy 3. United States Marine Corps 4. United States Air Force 5. United States Coast Guard Nothing negative about those five! And if you want more examples, well, I'd be more than happy to list them! No one starts a war--or rather, no one in his senses ought to do so--without first being clear in his mind what he intends to achieve by that war and how he intends to conduct it. Carl von Clausewitz |
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Highly Experienced Member |
Quoted directly from Rushbo! Used to be one of his favorite derisive dismissals! It is not our belief or disbelief that can make or unmake the fact. ~ Thomas Paine |
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Military.com Forums Hot Topics & Current Events Point-Counterpoint Where Did Our FREEDOM Go?
