I just got a copy of the comedy "Idiocracy" and it is extremely funny. The plot is that an average IQ soldier and a prostitute are frozen and the experimenters in cryogenics don't unfreeze them when they are supposed to. The couple wind up being thawed 500 years into the future and find the human race has become morons since each generation for 500 years has seen the brightest segment of the population have the fewest kids. These two are seen as intellectual superhumans.

The movie brings up an interesting idea and does leave one with a sense that maybe eugenics is good after all.

Then I read that China's economy will surpass the US economy in 2030. Of course when this happens China's cultural and scientific influence will begin to dominate as well. Then I ran across this article that points out the vast majority of Chinese scientists support eugenics:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/198555.stm

Now this, coupled with the advances in biotechnology and genetics will undoubtedly lead to a re-birth of the view that leaving human reproduction solely up to chance is not good for the society.

Well, any opinions?

Self edited due to intrusive Vibrant Ads

This message has been edited. Last edited by: The_Bonesaw,

Better educated people have bred less frequently since the beginning of contraception many thousands of years ago.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: liberal90,

quote:

Originally posted by The_Bonesaw:

quote:

Originally posted by Fiannan:

Well, any opinions?

It's a bad idea to meddle with the natural order of a species' reproduction. Dogs are a good example of this:

Sure, if you do it for a little while, you'll get some cool results; however, eventually, you will get all the problems that most over-bred species run into. Ironically, one usually winds up seeing a weaker end-product (health issues, more prone to disease, etc.) than what was started with naturally.

Birth control itself is anti-Darwinian you know.

quote:

Originally posted by The_Bonesaw:

quote:

Originally posted by Fiannan:

Well, any opinions?

It's a bad idea to meddle with the natural order of a species' reproduction. Dogs are a good example of this:

Sure, if you do it for a little while, you'll get some cool results; however, eventually, you will get all the problems that most over-bred species run into. Ironically, one usually winds up seeing a weaker end-product (health issues, more prone to disease, etc.) than what was started with naturally.

I would disagree with that as dogs are bred to bring out specific traits. To get this you end up with a smaller and smaller group to work with and this ends up reenforcing genetic defects.
If the were trying to breed people to bring out specific traits such as taller or stronger or red hair, I would agree.
This sounds more like culling not breeding

Here is the intro to idiocracy, it is pretty funny

If taxes weren't so high, and the resources so enormous to raise smart people, they would have more babies. Smart people weigh the consequences of their actions.

Stupid men say things like, man birth control is too expensive. Too expensive compared to what, a family? Add up the cost of birth control versus two years of newborn and you will find you are a LOSER my friend!

Alas, the stupid people in trailer parks do not see the consequence of bringing their one night stand with the pizza boy into this world. They see life as a miracle, and plop kids out right and left, whether they can care for them or not because smart people figured out how to get MORONS to vote for them.

In the old days, stupid people still bred, but their offspring DIED because they couldn't feed them. Now, the gubmint does it for us.

Dadgum Gubmint, a buncha sorry so and so's,
they got their dang hands in every pocket of my clothes!
Dadgum Gubmint. Sorry buncha ratchafrachits, they got themselves an itch and only smart people can scratchit!

I am against eugenics in principle because it's already too late! Who's to say that stupid people won't mess up eugenics, too? They messed up TV, Music, and the Movies. You don't believe me, then how do you explain how reality TV is beating written TV. Explain to me how country music from Canada dominates! And tell me I'm wrong if I tell you Hollywood hasn't had an original idea in a generation, and it shows because they keep remaking films like King Kong and Oceans 11.

What we need is an IQ virus to swarm the earth. If your IQ and reasoning skills allow you to enjoy pro wrestling and monster trucks, or any Japanese Game Show, then you are gonna die.

Wait a sec... My son loves The Rock and Gravedigger... Better scratch that idea.

I don't know. Eugenics to me sounds way too much like playing G*d, and that's bad form, and never leads to anything good.

quote:

Originally posted by stumpx:

What we need is an IQ virus to swarm the earth. If your IQ and reasoning skills allow you to enjoy pro wrestling and monster trucks, or any Japanese Game Show, then you are gonna die.

You gotta problem with Wrasslin', Mr. Smarty-britches?

quote:

Originally posted by stumpx:

Wow. Quite a manifesto. When I got to the part about stupid people in trailer parks seeing life as a miracle... wow. You just floored me with your biting insight.

You're right about one thing, though - Ocean's 11 should never be remade.

Now Bonesaw. I grew up with tractor pulls and rassling, but I outgrew it, just like I left the trailer park, got a real life, and moved on.

And you know what, Silverbackswife? Life is a miracle, but it ain't no accident! If you wrap that wiener, it won't infect the womb and make more wieners!

I speak from experience, both as a wiener, and as a frank sorta fritter!

By the way, the stupid people are up to Oceans 13 now, and I'm thoroughly disgusted.

quote:

Of course when this happens China's cultural and scientific influence will begin to dominate as well.

Chinese society is traditionally patrilineal, so under the restrictions of China's "one child" policy Chinese families have sought to maximize the production of male heirs--this has been going on for a while. Once those "young emperors" reach puberty and realize that there's a real shortage of "young empresses" I doubt they'll be concerned with test tubes and computer codes. And since China still has universal conscription, those young men will be frustrated and trained to fight. China's got one Hell of a case of adolescent "blue balls" brewing, and it won't be pretty....

The practice of Eugenics has been going on in the US for decades now. What's funny is the people practicing it aren't even aware they are. It is happening every day in Sperm Banks, the clients will choose the sample from the most intelligent, and athletic of the donors.

Yea, Eugenics have been practiced for years. Why did you think the US have an all volunteer military.

And eventhough suicide bombers also blow up an random sampling of humanity, they always, and more importantly, blow up themselves.

regards JakobA

quote:

Originally posted by JakobA_DK:
Yea, Eugenics have been practiced for years. Why did you think the US have an all volunteer military.

Certainly that gets the non sequitor prize for 2007.

To suggest an all volunteer military is designed to cull the herd is not only absurd but totally repugnant.

At best, any relation between eugenics and the all volunteer force would have to point to the Darwinian aspects like survival of the fittest.

But, even that analogy is inaccurate since so many Americans don't bother with serving their nation at all and they will breed just as those who serve and survive do.

All in all, a really bullschat comparison.

Eugenics cannot work for the same reason that you cannot build a foolproof system. Fools are just too ingenious.

quote:

Originally posted by JakobA_DK:
Yea, Eugenics have been practiced for years. Why did you think the US have an all volunteer military.

And eventhough suicide bombers also blow up an random sampling of humanity, they always, and more importantly, blow up themselves.



regards JakobA

Hey Jakob, I have read that Denmark allows for paying men to donate sperm as well as allowing them to do in annonomously. For that reason Danish companies are making a fortune in the sperm supply business since women from places like Britain and Sweden may have to wait for years to get IVF treatment (due to shortages in doners) either come to Denmark to get pregnant or have their doctors order sperm online from Denmark.

If that's true then maybe over a few generations Swedes will be smarter and Brits will be prettier!

Why don't they just come to America? I have plenty, and if she's hot enough, I'll even share! She won't even need IVF, because I deliver it on tap?

I'll just tell my wife it's my job. As long as I don't complain too much, she probably won't mind, right. Right?

quote:

Originally posted by stumpx:
Why don't they just come to America? I have plenty, and if she's hot enough, I'll even share! She won't even need IVF, because I deliver it on tap?

I'll just tell my wife it's my job. As long as I don't complain too much, she probably won't mind, right. Right?

Actually, joking aside, American sperm and egg banks are generally quite eugenic. On the other hand, Europeans are still a bit skiddish on eugenics due to the extremes of Hitler. Asians are more pro-eugenics since they were never really bothered by Hitler.

quote:

If that's true then maybe over a few generations Swedes will be smarter and Brits will be prettier!

Thank you

Actually there is a very basic error in the premise for this thread. It is apparently taken as a given that breeding for intelligence (or stupidity) works. The aristocracies of most cultures have attempted it and they have failed every time, and also failed by assuming that the 'stupid lower classes' would not generate their share of geniuses to lead the revolution. The heredity of intelligence is nowhere near as simple as the heredity of eye colors.

regards JakobA

quote:

Originally posted by JakobA_DK:

quote:

If that's true then maybe over a few generations Swedes will be smarter and Brits will be prettier!

Thank you

Actually there is a very basic error in the premise for this thread. It is apparently taken as a given that breeding for intelligence (or stupidity) works. The aristocracies of most cultures have attempted it and they have failed every time, and also failed by assuming that the 'stupid lower classes' would not generate their share of geniuses to lead the revolution. The heredity of intelligence is nowhere near as simple as the heredity of eye colors.

regards JakobA

I agree. However, our economic and cultural differences are artificial constructs that never were based on intelligence. Sure, some valient warrior gets made into a chief of a tribe and the tribe grows -- and his descendants become kings by birth. No real scientific application of eugenics there.

On the other hand, it has been speculated that the reason for European Jews to have an average IQ 14 points higher than average is that since many countries prevented Jews from owning property then the only Jewish men capable of making a living and supporting a family were those who could become merchants, bankers, educators, etc. (that means they needed more brains than the average guy). Also, unlike the Catholics who would take their brainiest boys and make them childless priests Jewish culture made the smartest boys into rabbis (despite their social class). It was also a status symbol to marry your daughter off to a rabbi so richer Jewish families would pair off their daughters with these men and (since the Bible says you should have a large family) this meant that the genes of intelligence were magnified.

So here was one instance where religion supported a very scientific program of enhanced genetic abilities.

The problem society has today is that now we follow more a Catholic policy of breeding (in regards to the high IQ people) than a Jewish one. We take promising young men and women who show outstanding capabilities and steer them towards long educations and careers that tend to be difficult to start families within -- meaning these people tend to send fewer and fewer of their genes into the next gene pool.

As one of them people, I gotta say, you are kind of correct in the observation, but also, you are leaving out something very, very important.

The three things the people have had arrayed against them since the first days.

1. Assimiliation

2. Persecution

3. Extermination

Each of these contributes to shaping the population pool. Assimiliation means that a many wander off into the rest of humanity,- the remaining members cling to their culture even more intently, to stave off more assimiliation. Persecution means that those that remain in the pool tend to share the same characteristics, many shaped by culture, not genetics. Extermination, both the threat and the action, not only affects the gene pool but also the culture of those who survive.

Genetics might or might not play a role, but in all three factors, it is CULTURE that runs as a common thread.

I believe genetics is a factor, but it takes much much longer for populations to be affected by genetics than by culture, otherwise, how could so many Americans be assimiliated into the US, becoming "Americans"? When people fear Mexicans coming to our nation illegally, are they concerned for their race, or their culture?

Which is the greatest threat to their life?