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Thought this was worth posting. It comes from that "left" wing propaganda outlet NPR (Being the liberal that I am, I listen to NPR and gladly support it). Also of interest was an interview on BBC radio yesterday talking about multiculturalism and Islam in the United Kingdom. The BBC report suggested that attempting to integrate Islam within British society was failing.

It would seem Islam even from "moderate" Turekey has serious issues with countries outside Islamic states. I do not think talking about Islamic radicles is accurate unless the entire religion is radicle which it seems to be. The Muslims who are against so called radicle Islam seem to be awfully quiet and certainly offer no serious counter arguement to the more militant members of their family.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=17847605



Muslim Activist Critical of 'Multicultural Mistake'
by Sylvia Poggioli

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Second in a six-part series.



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Human rights activist/lawyer Seyran Ates was named Germany's woman of the year in 2005 for her work in defense of Muslim women in immigrant communities.


Morning Edition, January 22, 2008 · Seyran Ates is a prominent women's rights lawyer in Berlin. A German of Turkish origin, she has been forced to abandon her legal practice because of death threats from Islamic radicals.

Ates is a vehement critic of what she calls an excessively benign Western attitude toward the growing influence of political Islam in Europe.

A petite 44-year-old woman with lively dark eyes and an exuberant manner, Ates grew up in a Turkish patriarchal family in Berlin.

She learned German quickly and wanted to be an active member of German society. But the only option for young, curious daughters of strict Muslim immigrants was to break with their families.

A Break with Tradition

At 17, Ates ran away from home and sought refuge in a shelter for battered women. Coming from a family tradition where, she says, women have no rights, at first she found that even the smallest decision caused great anguish.

"To open the magazine and looking for a movie what you want to see, these were really big problems for me in the first half-year," she says. "I need to understand I can open magazine and look for a movie, and say in this cinema I want to go. In the age of 18 I have to learn that."

Only three years later, while she was living at a women's center, a band of Turkish youths broke in and started firing guns. Ates was shot in the throat. The woman next to her was killed.

Ates vowed she would become a lawyer and fight for women's rights, and that no man would spoil her dream.

Woman of the Year

In 2005, Seyran Ates was named Germany's woman of the year for her work in defense of Muslim women in immigrant communities.

While defending Muslim women for the last two decades, she's been insulted and threatened by her clients' husbands and relatives. She was always able to brush it off, until last year.

As she was about to enter a Berlin courtroom with a client filing for divorce, the husband assaulted the two women. The man called the lawyer a whore, shouting, "What ideas have you put in my wife's head?" Ates says.

None of the many onlookers offered to help the women.

Ates says that brazen incident in public, at a time when she sees increasing Islamization in Europe, convinced her she had to shut down her practice. As a single mother, she says, her life and that of her young daughter have priority.

The 'Multicultural Mistake'

Ates blames the rise of political Islam in Europe in great part on what she calls excessive tolerance, both by the left and the right, of repressive traditions of minority cultures — and a widespread unwillingness to integrate immigrants into mainstream society. She calls it the "Multicultural Mistake," also the title of her recently published book.

Forced marriages, she says, are locking up German-born Muslims in separate Islamic enclaves.

There are tens of thousands of women so isolated from German society that they're unable even to call an ambulance.

"We have in the third generation children who do not speak very well German," Ates says. "They cannot speak very well their own language — they are not integrated in the culture, they do not even know how big is the city in which they live in."

Domestic violence and even honor killings take place behind walls of silence.

In Need of Help

Ates believes that German society is also responsible for not doing enough to help Muslim women who dare to scale those walls and break free from their family ties. At the few existing help centers, women suffering from depression have a two-year waiting period to see Turkish-speaking psychologists.

Ates says that victims from immigrant communities have particular problems and need their own shelters and specialized counseling.

"Western world can be very horrible for such a girl. She will come into a cultural shock when she come out of a traditional family and everybody say you are free now, do what you want. And that can be big identity conflict because she never learned to be free," she says.

The Litmus Test

Emancipated Muslim women in Germany are a minority. Most women remain silent. Ates says they don't ask for divorce because they live in fear that their husbands will kill them to protect the family honor. The issue of sexuality, she believes, is at the heart of the divide between the Western and Muslim worlds — and is what most worries the patriarchs of traditional Muslim families.

The status of Muslim women is the litmus test, Ates says, for integration of their communities into European societies.

But she believes the situation is getting worse in Germany, with more and more Muslim girls as young as six years old wearing headscarves, and more and more girls being kept away by their parents from sports and biology classes in school.

"If we don't stop the political-religious movement, I'm sure we have much more Islamization in Germany in next five to 10 years," she says. "If we are going to stop that movement and separate politics from religion, then we will have chance for Islam to be compatible with democracy."

A year after leaving her practice, Ates is ready to take up cases of Muslim women again. This time, however, she'll work behind the scene, and she'll stay far away from the courtroom.


Related NPR Stories
Jan. 21, 2008
Muslim Women Behind Wall of Silence in GermanyJan. 23, 2008
Many British Muslim Women Embrace Political IslamNov. 20, 2006
Europe's Right TurnOct. 29, 2006
Understanding the Veil in Islam, Western SocietiesDec. 13, 2004
Europe, Islam's New Front LineNov. 1, 2006
Muslim Women, the Veil and Western SocietyOct. 16, 2006
In Britain, Veil Issue Sparks Islamophobia DebateAug. 2, 2004
Muslim Women at Odds Over Rights
 
Posts: 3913 | Registered: Fri 16 September 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Why is the answer from the Islamic community always murder and threats of murder.

Because it is their way.
 
Posts: 14713 | Registered: Tue 24 October 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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R102: If you turn a deaf ear, don't be surprised if you don't hear anything.
 
Posts: 5345 | Registered: Tue 04 December 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by sweetsuds:
R102: If you turn a deaf ear, don't be surprised if you don't hear anything.


A deaf ear to what? This is an article from NPR. There is a similar one on the BBC. Both NPR and the BBC are recognised for their journalism around the world. Did you read the article?

Also why are you trying to talk in parables?
 
Posts: 3913 | Registered: Fri 16 September 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Opfor6:
Why is the answer from the Islamic community always murder and threats of murder.

Because it is their way.


I agree. Islam breeds violence.
 
Posts: 3913 | Registered: Fri 16 September 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by R102:
quote:
Originally posted by sweetsuds:
R102: If you turn a deaf ear, don't be surprised if you don't hear anything.


A deaf ear to what? This is an article from NPR. There is a similar one on the BBC. Both NPR and the BBC are recognised for their journalism around the world. Did you read the article?

Also why are you trying to talk in parables?

You claim that Muslims aren't doing anything to oppose extremism, despite the stories available on the BBC, NPR, APM, PRI, CBC, etc. stating otherwise.
And parables are shorthand- I'm aiming for a language that's not too wordy, yet understandable. If you'd prefer that I take a paragraph or two to explain that sentence, I'll be happy to.
 
Posts: 5345 | Registered: Tue 04 December 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Morning Edition, January 22, 2008 · Seyran Ates is a prominent women's rights lawyer in Berlin. A German of Turkish origin, she has been forced to abandon her legal practice because of death threats from Islamic radicals.
You read this and conclude that all islamic immigrants are radical trouble makers ?

How about Ms Ates ? and the muslim women and men who seek her aid ? Surely they are not radicals.

Islam is in a turmoil right now. With Old style fundamentalism in conflict with more modern moslems. The refugees we get are mostly from whichever end of the spectrum is currently losing.

The Youth in Iran is pretty much at odds with their mullahs, they want jeans and music videos and dont see what all the fuss is about. The educated professionals currently fleeing Iraq are quite 'secular' in their world wiev. And then there are refugees from countries that have gone too far too fast in their 'sea change'. That is where we get the radical extremists, and yes they are a bother; but it is worth remembering that in most Islamic countries the leadership is conservative (as usual). So for each fundamentalist asshat we get, we also get 3-4 more moderate moslems who are villing and eager to integrate as productive citizens (and dont like the fundamentalists any better than we 'native europeans' do).

Moslems are not just moslems. they are people with as many differences as any other group.

regards JakobA


"Good is better than bad cause its nicer" Mammy Yokum (as related by Al Capp)
 
Posts: 6181 | Registered: Sun 01 May 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sweetsuds:
quote:
Originally posted by R102:
quote:
Originally posted by sweetsuds:
R102: If you turn a deaf ear, don't be surprised if you don't hear anything.


A deaf ear to what? This is an article from NPR. There is a similar one on the BBC. Both NPR and the BBC are recognised for their journalism around the world. Did you read the article?

Also why are you trying to talk in parables?

You claim that Muslims aren't doing anything to oppose extremism, despite the stories available on the BBC, NPR, APM, PRI, CBC, etc. stating otherwise.
And parables are shorthand- I'm aiming for a language that's not too wordy, yet understandable. If you'd prefer that I take a paragraph or two to explain that sentence, I'll be happy to.


Obviously the influence of the organizations of which you right lack influence in the wider Islamic community. If they had real power this woman and people like her would not have to fear for the safery.




Oskar Schlinder is in the center of the photo.


Oskar Schlinder as we all know was a German Nazi. His heroism which saved the lives of hundreds of Jews was an incredible act of courage and bravery. Schlinder was a good Nazi. But his inherent virtue and goodness in no way made Nazism any less evil and perverted. Islam is the same. A few good Muslims does not change the basic message of violence that Islam preaches from within its schools and mosques. The exception to the rule does not change the rule.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Opfor6:
Why is the answer from the Islamic community always murder and threats of murder.

Because it is their way.


As a matter of fact Islam is based on morale, ethics, tolerance and compassion. Unfortunately it is misused. I advice to read several hadiths regarding Umar the first (The second Kalif. 634-644).

A pretty good book (even if is hard to read due to the language used) is the book of Ignaz Goldziher "Lectures on Islam". I suggest to read it. Cool
 
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Oskar Schlinder as we all know was a German Nazi. His heroism which saved the lives of hundreds of Jews

well more like around 1500 to 2000 lives... he took just about most of his profits made and brought the freedom of some jewish people... he also made his munitions that were duds and the boot polish were made with a glass top/.... he3 did sabotage a lot of the german war machine...
 
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with more and more Muslim girls as young as six years old wearing headscarves,


Suds I know you saw that! Didn't you know you were oppressed!

I can't wait to let my wife know the great revelation that she is also oppressed by her hijab, when she gets back from school in New York Sunday! Applause
 
Posts: 2793 | Registered: Wed 14 July 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by JakobA_DK:
quote:
Morning Edition, January 22, 2008 · Seyran Ates is a prominent women's rights lawyer in Berlin. A German of Turkish origin, she has been forced to abandon her legal practice because of death threats from Islamic radicals.
You read this and conclude that all islamic immigrants are radical trouble makers ?

How about the muslim women and men who sought her aid ? Surely they are not radicals.In the minority as she points out. Most do as they are told as she points out.

Islam is in a turmoil right now. With Old style fundamentalism in conflict with more modern moslems. The refugees we get are mostly from whichever end of the spectrum is currently losing.It has been like this for 2k years. It does not change and has ALWAYS fought against non Islmamic states. Look at the problems Muslims cause in India.

The Youth in Iran is pretty much at odds with their mullahs, they want jeans and music videos and dont see what all the fuss is about. The educated professionals currently fleeing Iraq are quite 'secular' in their world wiev. And then there are refugees from countries that have gone too far too fast in their 'sea change'. That is where we get the radical extremists, and yes they are a bother; but it is worth remembering that in most Islamic countries the leadership is conservative (as usual). So for each fundamentalist asshat we get, we also get 3-4 more moderate moslems who are villing and eager to integrate as productive citizens (and dont like the fundamentalists any better than we 'native europeans' do).Well if those moderates outnumber the radicles 3 or 4 to 1 why are they not keeping them in check? It is because they do not have power over them. Appeasement or keeping quiet is the same is tacit apporval for their violent acts.

Moslems are not just moslems. they are people with as many differences as any other group.

regards JakobA


The youth in Iran do as they are told. Just because they are at odds with their religious leaders does not mean they are going to turn Iran into a Democratic state with a seperation of Church and state.

Yes I read it. There are many more from mainstream news oranizations.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by R102:

Oskar Schlinder as we all know was a German Nazi. His heroism which saved the lives of hundreds of Jews was an incredible act of courage and bravery. Schlinder was a good Nazi. But his inherent virtue and goodness in no way made Nazism any less evil and perverted. Islam is the same. A few good Muslims does not change the basic message of violence that Islam preaches from within its schools and mosques. The exception to the rule does not change the rule.


The big problem of Islam is that it is indeed a rather militaristic religion, and this side is easily misused and twisted. (According to I.Goldziher). The Lunatics use this fact in order to wage Jihad.

Still, one needs to remember, that Christianity (and Judaism) had the same dark periods, and were no less militant. Now, the methods are simply different. Give them time, they will come around. Our mission is to take care of those that refuse to do so.
 
Posts: 1954 | Registered: Fri 27 July 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by outlaws93:
quote:
Oskar Schlinder as we all know was a German Nazi. His heroism which saved the lives of hundreds of Jews

well more like around 1500 to 2000 lives...


Thanks Outlaw, my mistake.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Sgt_Salaam:
quote:
with more and more Muslim girls as young as six years old wearing headscarves,


Suds I know you saw that! Didn't you know you were oppressed!

I can't wait to let my wife know the great revelation that she is also oppressed by her hijab, when she gets back from school in New York Sunday! Applause


actually it is a sign of oppression...
 
Posts: 39661 | Registered: Thu 18 August 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Sgt, the girls being pulled out of sports and health scares me way more than a bit of fabric.
 
Posts: 5345 | Registered: Tue 04 December 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sweetsuds:
Sgt, the girls being pulled out of sports and health scares me way more than a bit of fabric.


ahh you mean the ones for not wearing regulation uniforms???
 
Posts: 39661 | Registered: Thu 18 August 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I'd rather be knitting.
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Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by PanzerMeister:
quote:
Originally posted by Opfor6:
Why is the answer from the Islamic community always murder and threats of murder.

Because it is their way.


As a matter of fact Islam is based on morale, ethics, tolerance and compassion. Unfortunately it is misused. I advice to read several hadiths regarding Umar the first (The second Kalif. 634-644).

A pretty good book (even if is hard to read due to the language used) is the book of Ignaz Goldziher "Lectures on Islam". I suggest to read it. Cool

Panzer: In the Religion in the Military section of these fora, there is an Islam Q & A thread with a recommended reading and link list. Feel free to add, and/or get suggestions for your reading list.
 
Posts: 5345 | Registered: Tue 04 December 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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the basic message of violence that Islam preaches from within its schools and mosques


I hate this bigoted BS! When was the last time you were in a Mosque or an Islamic School?

Stop being a little coward, get from behind a keyboard and actually do something worthwhile. Stop talking and doing.

You can't even walk in the shadow of the millions of Muslims across the globe that put their lives and their loved ones lives on the line daily to fight against terrorism.

You have no clue the threat, because the truth is, the only people that actually have to worry about death at the hands of terrorists daily are Muslims.

Unfortunately, too many of them don't have keyboards to get on here and tell you cowards how real men and women actually fight terrorism while you whine about the sky falling in the safety of your homes far removed from the actual fight behind a keyboard.

The truth of the matter is many of you are ignorance leeches. Your ignorant, want to spread ignorance, and leech on to any and every article or news clip to help feed your hunger.

Yet none of you have the testicular fortitude to actually go and see for yourselves.

All you are is a bunch of talk.

So while your busy talking about that which you have no experience or first hand knowledge, people like me will be doing the actual work going from Mosque to Mosque, house to house, and Muslim to Muslim.

Continue sitting home eating twinkies and get the sand out of your ****s.

Semper Fi
 
Posts: 2793 | Registered: Wed 14 July 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by outlaws93:
quote:
Originally posted by sweetsuds:
Sgt, the girls being pulled out of sports and health scares me way more than a bit of fabric.


ahh you mean the ones for not wearing regulation uniforms???

Dressing modestly is not a sign of oppression unless one has no choice in attire. Banning hijab and mandating it are equally oppressive.
 
Posts: 5345 | Registered: Tue 04 December 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by outlaws93:
quote:
Originally posted by Sgt_Salaam:
quote:
with more and more Muslim girls as young as six years old wearing headscarves,


Suds I know you saw that! Didn't you know you were oppressed!

I can't wait to let my wife know the great revelation that she is also oppressed by her hijab, when she gets back from school in New York Sunday! Applause


actually it is a sign of oppression...


How the hell would you know what oppression is? Anybody can be an armchair quarterback Smile
 
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Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sweetsuds:
quote:
Originally posted by outlaws93:
quote:
Originally posted by sweetsuds:
Sgt, the girls being pulled out of sports and health scares me way more than a bit of fabric.


ahh you mean the ones for not wearing regulation uniforms???

Dressing modestly is not a sign of oppression unless one has no choice in attire. Banning hijab and mandating it are equally oppressive.



well i guess they should not join the sports teams that have uniforms then... you have to wear the proper uniforms and no special needs for people wanting special rights... nope you got to follow the rules just like everyone else....you are no different then everyone else so why are they acting like it??
 
Posts: 39661 | Registered: Thu 18 August 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by outlaws93:
why are they acting like it??


Why must certain groups of Americans every decade or so come up with a new group to be bigoted against, grouping them in the collective "they"?

It's so obvious what certain people truly have in their hearts.

Pretty soon suds, you will be getting called girl and I will be boy. Not much has changed, just the target.
 
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Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sgt_Salaam:
quote:
Originally posted by outlaws93:
quote:
Originally posted by Sgt_Salaam:
quote:
with more and more Muslim girls as young as six years old wearing headscarves,


Suds I know you saw that! Didn't you know you were oppressed!

I can't wait to let my wife know the great revelation that she is also oppressed by her hijab, when she gets back from school in New York Sunday! Applause


actually it is a sign of oppression...


How the hell would you know what oppression is? Anybody can be an armchair quarterback Smile


well i know that is ....

and actually

quote:
When was the last time you were in a Mosque or an Islamic School?


it is impossible for an infidel to attend a Mosque or an islamic school...
 
Posts: 39661 | Registered: Thu 18 August 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sgt_Salaam:
quote:
with more and more Muslim girls as young as six years old wearing headscarves,


Suds I know you saw that! Didn't you know you were oppressed!

I can't wait to let my wife know the great revelation that she is also oppressed by her hijab, when she gets back from school in New York Sunday! Applause


Yes I think we can all agree how lucky we are to live in a nation not founded on Islam and to live in a nation where at least for now Islam is weak. Lets keep it that way.Applause
 
Posts: 3913 | Registered: Fri 16 September 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sgt_Salaam:
quote:
Originally posted by outlaws93:
why are they acting like it??


Why must certain groups of Americans every decade or so come up with a new group to be bigoted against, grouping them in the collective "they"?

It's so obvious what certain people truly have in their hearts.

Pretty soon suds, you will be getting called girl and I will be boy. Not much has changed, just the target.


well should of thought about that while you are ignoring and saying it is not all your problems with the islamofascist.... when in fact it is islams job to clean out the fat.... we christains did it some 500+ years ago.... time for you all to step up and clean house... because it is dirty...
 
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Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sgt_Salaam:
quote:
Originally posted by outlaws93:
why are they acting like it??


Why must certain groups of Americans every decade or so come up with a new group to be bigoted against, grouping them in the collective "they"?



It's so obvious what certain people truly have in their hearts.

Pretty soon suds, you will be getting called girl and I will be boy. Not much has changed, just the target.
Islam has nothing to do with race. Look around the world. It destroys all racial groups. India, Africa, Europe, Asia Islam destroys all ethnic groups. Only you would say arguing against Islam is racial. A ridiculous comment on your part. Still it shows how important race is in your world.
 
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I'd rather be knitting.
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Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by R102:
quote:
Originally posted by Sgt_Salaam:
quote:
with more and more Muslim girls as young as six years old wearing headscarves,


Suds I know you saw that! Didn't you know you were oppressed!

I can't wait to let my wife know the great revelation that she is also oppressed by her hijab, when she gets back from school in New York Sunday! Applause


Yes I think we can all agree how lucky we are to live in a nation not founded on Islam and to live in a nation where at least for now Islam is weak. Lets keep it that way.Applause

No, actually, in some ways, Islam is stronger than it is in the ME. Muslims are making connections across madhab/ethnic/cultural lines, getting involved in many charitable and civic causes, and many are involved in what is called the "struggle for the soul of Islam". American Muslims are quite engaged with an intrafaith and interfaith dialogue that is producing an American approach to Islam that is unique, and bringing out aspects of Islam that has the potential to inspire the world. Nope, Islam is growing, but is already showing signs of amazing moral strength.
 
Posts: 5345 | Registered: Tue 04 December 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
No, actually, in some ways, Islam is stronger than it is in the ME. Muslims are making connections across madhab/ethnic/cultural lines, getting involved in many charitable and civic causes, and many are involved in what is called the "struggle for the soul of Islam". American Muslims are quite engaged with an intrafaith and interfaith dialogue that is producing an American approach to Islam that is unique, and bringing out aspects of Islam that has the potential to inspire the world. Nope, Islam is growing, but is already showing signs of amazing moral strength.



American Islam is probably the exception to the rule just as Schlinder was the exception to Nazism.

Althoug Louis Farrakhan a devout Islamic leader is against Jews. I put him in the same class as Pat Robertson.

American Islam is young. It also is a gateway to mainstream Islam entreing the USA. Similar to what is happening with Islam in Australia and New Zealand.
 
Posts: 3913 | Registered: Fri 16 September 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by outlaws93:

well should of thought about that while you are ignoring and saying it is not all your problems with the islamofascist.... when in fact it is islams job to clean out the fat.... we christains did it some 500+ years ago.... time for you all to step up and clean house... because it is dirty...




These Christians didn't get the memo...500 years ago my ***! Hell 500 years ago Christians were just getting warmed up!



And speaking of oppressed Muslim Women, tell me who this woman is?

 
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