First let me say I like Glen Beck. I think he brings up issues that make you go "Oh"? But today I have to say he is full of schit.

He made comment today that the average pay for all federal employees was $70,000. Do you know what that means? It means that the average fed employee is at least a GS-12, and that is with steps... about step 5. So I asked myself where did all the GS-1 through GS-11 fit into this equation. Noper, Glen got some bum information on this one.... Oh, and for you who hate/dislike fed employees? Google GS Pay scales. Professionals usually get the 12+ level and poorly technicians are below 11 generally. Given that there are no doubt more indians then chiefs his info doesn't pan out.

Oh, I might add if Glenn's information included the ES and SES with their 6 digit figures (Senate and Congress) then he may be close but the way it was presented sends a very poor picture to the uninformed. And there be a whole slew of those folks out there in regards to this topic.

He may be using the same formula used by the right-wingers to rant about all the 80/72/63 dollar an hour GM assembly line workers.

If you take a base wage, add approximately 28 percent for matching FICA, unemployment, workman's comp....add the cost/value of health insurance and other non-taxed bennies...then add the liability to the employer for retiree health care...you can get to that number quite easily--which is the 'cost' of the employee, not the employee wage or salary. As for the average actual paycheck...probably 35 to 50 percent lower.

There is no "average" for Federal Employees. There are so many different "pay schedules/pay bands/ pay scales" as to make an "average" pretty close to unattainable, there are just too many variables. Some, like Engineers, Fire Fighters, Scientists, etc., have totally different scales than "regular" Federal employees.

quote:

Originally posted by m551sheridan:
First let me say I like Glen Beck. I think he brings up issues that make you go "Oh"? But today I have to say he is full of schit.

Grasshopper,

When you realize that Glenn Beck is ALWAYS "full of schit", then you will have learned.

An old blind monk

Maybe he got the numbers from this site (though in that case Beck maybe a little low).

**http://www.fedsmith.com/article/1471/

It could also be a case of not knowing everything... kind of like how people always say that teachers work such short hours and have a three month summer for vacation.

quote:

Originally posted by aggie_swife:
Maybe he got the numbers from this site (though in that case Beck maybe a little low).

**http://www.fedsmith.com/article/1471/

It could also be a case of not knowing everything... kind of like how people always say that teachers work such short hours and have a three month summer for vacation.

That article seems more focused on DC area fed workers, and discounts all the DOD, Social Security, Corps of Engineers, and other fed employees around the country.

DC would likely have a higher percentage of federal employees near the top of the scale--agency heads, congressmen...also, they use the term 'median', so the same number of fed employees in Washington make more than 90k as make less than 90k---doesn't speak to average, though.

This section from the fedsmith article certainly backs Mom2APAJ's point:

quote:

So how complex is the federal pay system? OPM has written out examples of pay computations for GS employees. No doubt, even the experts within agencies have trouble figuring out this Byzantine bureaucratic system which, in all probability, provides high paying salaries for a number of people who have to work all year to figure out how to administer the federal pay rates.

I seriously doubt if the employees doing a large portion of the work at the VAMC where I work earn $70,000 per year. I know the doctors and some nurse practioners that make over that amount, but not nearly what was implied. Those in the private sector make as much and often more. The large work force of VA clerical personnel earn less, as well as those skilled craftsmen and housekeeping personnel must figure into the mix as well.

I often listen to those brilliant people on the talking head shows, knocking 'commoners' making to much in wages building cars and trucks, as well as government workers making to much. Even ABC News, two years ago, knocked several veterans organizations for paying their service officers to represent veterans in their claims.

Yet look at the income the the talking heads receive and brag about it on air! Then I listen to the investment brokers on Fox complain about evil unions asking for a living wage.

Oh well, one of the investment brokers got free room and board for the next 150 years today.

quote:

Oh well, one of the investment brokers got free room and board for the next 150 years today.

The Feds will catch on some day...our local County Hoosegow charges 22 dollars a day, and they've got a barracuda collection agency chasing down the money.

quote:

Originally posted by m551sheridan:
First let me say I like Glen Beck. I think he brings up issues that make you go "Oh"? But today I have to say he is full of schit.

He made comment today that the average pay for all federal employees was $70,000. Do you know what that means? It means that the average fed employee is at least a GS-12, and that is with steps... about step 5. So I asked myself where did all the GS-1 through GS-11 fit into this equation. Noper, Glen got some bum information on this one.... Oh, and for you who hate/dislike fed employees? Google GS Pay scales. Professionals usually get the 12+ level and poorly technicians are below 11 generally. Given that there are no doubt more indians then chiefs his info doesn't pan out.

Oh, I might add if Glenn's information included the ES and SES with their 6 digit figures (Senate and Congress) then he may be close but the way it was presented sends a very poor picture to the uninformed. And there be a whole slew of those folks out there in regards to this topic.

Just curious...was he including benies as well?

The benies are included in the "what the union makes at GM". The inmportant # to a company is what the company has to pay.

Me going to go looksee

"http://federaltimes.com/index.php?S=2848236
different article

quote:

Originally posted by ACR26:

quote:

Originally posted by m551sheridan:
First let me say I like Glen Beck. I think he brings up issues that make you go "Oh"? But today I have to say he is full of schit.

He made comment today that the average pay for all federal employees was $70,000. Do you know what that means? It means that the average fed employee is at least a GS-12, and that is with steps... about step 5. So I asked myself where did all the GS-1 through GS-11 fit into this equation. Noper, Glen got some bum information on this one.... Oh, and for you who hate/dislike fed employees? Google GS Pay scales. Professionals usually get the 12+ level and poorly technicians are below 11 generally. Given that there are no doubt more indians then chiefs his info doesn't pan out.

Oh, I might add if Glenn's information included the ES and SES with their 6 digit figures (Senate and Congress) then he may be close but the way it was presented sends a very poor picture to the uninformed. And there be a whole slew of those folks out there in regards to this topic.

Just curious...was he including benies as well?

The benies are included in the "what the union makes at GM". The inmportant # to a company is what the company has to pay.

Me going to go looksee

Asked and answered by some Liberal earlier in the thread.

quote:

He may be using the same formula used by the right-wingers to rant about all the 80/72/63 dollar an hour GM assembly line workers.

If you take a base wage, add approximately 28 percent for matching FICA, unemployment, workman's comp....add the cost/value of health insurance and other non-taxed bennies...then add the liability to the employer for retiree health care...you can get to that number quite easily--which is the 'cost' of the employee, not the employee wage or salary. As for the average actual paycheck...probably 35 to 50 percent lower.

quote:

Originally posted by ACR26:
Just curious...was he including benies as well?

the way he presented it ... No. The listener, by what he said, would be lead to believe that us fed employees live pretty high on the hog. I spent over 30 years as one and I would have loved to make 70K...... my Ranger didn't even make that much. But then I was one of those I mentioned as lowly technicians... and even with my benies I still don't think I would of come close - actually I know it.

The majority of fed workers from where I'm at are WG's.

quote:

Originally posted by Mom2APAJ:
There is no "average" for Federal Employees. There are so many different "pay schedules/pay bands/ pay scales" as to make an "average" pretty close to unattainable, there are just too many variables. Some, like Engineers, Fire Fighters, Scientists, etc., have totally different scales than "regular" Federal employees.

First your link is to an article talking about a Median not an Average.
Plus a LOT of the lower and middle paying federal jobs have been contracted out (often at a higher cost unfortunately) leaving a higher % of supervisors and professionals as actual federal employees.

quote:

Originally posted by m551sheridan:


He made comment today that the average pay for all federal employees was $70,000. Do you know what that means? It means that the average fed employee is at least a GS-12, and that is with steps... about step 5. So I asked myself where did all the GS-1 through GS-11 fit into this equation. Noper, Glen got some bum information on this one....

I'm wondering if the stats are in reference to base pay?

Did anyone add in all the other pay?

AUO Administratively Uncontrolable Overtime
FLSA Fair Labor Standards Act
Night Differential
Sunday Pay
OT (direct overtime when working specific cases)
Travel
Holiday Pay
Hazardous Duty Pay

It really adds up towards the final yearly income.

When I retired after my accident, I was a GS12-5 , making approx $94,000 per year. I had been a Marine Enforcement Officer/Sr. MEO for 17 yrs.

Don

quote:

Originally posted by Yooper_tj:
He may be using the same formula used by the right-wingers to rant about all the 80/72/63 dollar an hour GM assembly line workers.

If you take a base wage, add approximately 28 percent for matching FICA, unemployment, workman's comp....add the cost/value of health insurance and other non-taxed bennies...then add the liability to the employer for retiree health care...you can get to that number quite easily--which is the 'cost' of the employee, not the employee wage or salary. As for the average actual paycheck...probably 35 to 50 percent lower.

No ranting involved. Only telling the whole story. To ignore the whole cost, accurately computed for any employee, is a misleading way to understand the economics that impacts the viability of the company or agency. The whole cost should be included, since it is the entire cost for any employee that affects that employee's impact on the company's finances.

The only way I can see calculating an "average" federal employee cost is to total the cost of all nominal (not after-tax) salaries throughout the gargantuan bureaucracy (all offices, agencies, the White House politburo of czars, Congressional staffs, judges, etc.) and add in the traditional benefit packages for all, then divide by the total number of federal employees. I would not be surprised if that value was about $70,000. Cripe, I recall getting some printout from DFAS about 1994 or '95 telling me that my salary as a Major, including all the bennies (many of which we did not much use) was about $65,000. The monthly deposit was nowhere near that.

Maybe a better statistic, or one to also be stated to place matters into better perspective, would have been the median federal employee cost--half of the employees costing less, half costing more. I am confident that would be much lower. But the average value remains pertinent and necessary to gain a better understanding of the employee costs.

I absolutely know that the G&A rate for a 900-person district where I worked in the early 1990s was 26%. Compare that to single digit G&A for similarly-sized private-sector organizations. Federal employment and offices are very costly to this nation for the value delivered. Much, much overlap and internal squabbling that does NOTHING of any good for taxpayers. This is not an indictment of the people themselves, so many of whom I grew to respect for their abilities. But the federal culture is not one of efficiency; stronger is the notion and motivation of self-preservation and job justification. That occurs in the private sector, too, but business imperatives often trump the inefficiencies that would otherwise result.

The proponent for federal employment statistics is OPM. The lastest employment report is from 3 Sept 2006 indicates that the average grade of the workforce is GS10. That would be from $45K to $58K,

OPM

Pay

This message has been edited. Last edited by: DMarkUhler,

Grade is roughly but not perfectly correlated with pay, so it might be $70,000 when individual benefit value is calculated, as it should be to determine cost per employee. The $45,000 to $58,000 range might be placed at $53,000 (reasonably biased to the greater, since federal employees tend to remain in their jobs much longer than many in the private sector; those drawn to the federal payrolls are not, by nature, risk-seekers). If so, another $16,000 for employer-paid benefits, about 30% of the $53,000, does not seem out of line. The $70,000 may be correct; no solid evidence that it is not.

quote:

Originally posted by RRR52:
Grade is roughly but not perfectly correlated with pay, so it might be $70,000 when individual benefit value is calculated, as it should be to determine cost per employee. The $45,000 to $58,000 range might be placed at $53,000 (reasonably biased to the greater, since federal employees tend to remain in their jobs much longer than many in the private sector; those drawn to the federal payrolls are not, by nature, risk-seekers). If so, another $16,000 for employer-paid benefits, about 30% of the $53,000, does not seem out of line. The $70,000 may be correct; no solid evidence that it is not.

Accurate, in my opinion...as long as you draw the line between 'pay' and 'cost'.

...but it also points up the common misconception that employer subsidized health insurance is 'free' or even 'cheap'. Same with vacation, dental, and disability insurance.

Want a sobering and disgusting fact?

"What is the league minimum pay and average pay for a professional baseball player

The Major League minimum salary is $400,000 in 2009 and the average salary to MLB players is $3.24 million in 2009. ChaCha!!"

chacha.com/search/Minimum+Salary+baseball+players/newest

Don

quote:

Originally posted by RRR52:
Grade is roughly but not perfectly correlated with pay, so it might be $70,000 when individual benefit value is calculated, as it should be to determine cost per employee. The $45,000 to $58,000 range might be placed at $53,000 (reasonably biased to the greater, since federal employees tend to remain in their jobs much longer than many in the private sector; those drawn to the federal payrolls are not, by nature, risk-seekers). If so, another $16,000 for employer-paid benefits, about 30% of the $53,000, does not seem out of line. The $70,000 may be correct; no solid evidence that it is not.

Well you would then concede the grade is incorrect?

quote:

Originally posted by DMarkUhler:

quote:

Originally posted by RRR52:
Grade is roughly but not perfectly correlated with pay, so it might be $70,000 when individual benefit value is calculated, as it should be to determine cost per employee. The $45,000 to $58,000 range might be placed at $53,000 (reasonably biased to the greater, since federal employees tend to remain in their jobs much longer than many in the private sector; those drawn to the federal payrolls are not, by nature, risk-seekers). If so, another $16,000 for employer-paid benefits, about 30% of the $53,000, does not seem out of line. The $70,000 may be correct; no solid evidence that it is not.

Well you would then concede the grade is incorrect?

GS-10 as average grade? I dunno. Could be right, could be something else; does not jump out as almost certainly wrong, at least not to my expectations. I wonder how SESs are factored into the calculation. Not a lot of them, but bigger salaries.

Just look up civil service pay charts on the computer and you will see for the hours worked, the extra benefits, and the location where you work and Glenn Beck is right on. As he is most of the time.

quote:

Originally posted by Yooper_tj:
He may be using the same formula used by the right-wingers to rant about all the 80/72/63 dollar an hour GM assembly line workers.

If you take a base wage, add approximately 28 percent for matching FICA, unemployment, workman's comp....add the cost/value of health insurance and other non-taxed bennies...then add the liability to the employer for retiree health care...you can get to that number quite easily--which is the 'cost' of the employee, not the employee wage or salary. As for the average actual paycheck...probably 35 to 50 percent lower.

Auto workers make $14 to $30 an hour. Skilled trades will make more. Some non union shop workers actually make more in take home than union shops.

If you've ever worked an assembly line, you wouldn't say they were overpaid.

That sounds about right, and $70,000 is not a huge salary. I make more than that as a 1LT.

A 70K salary equals somewhere from 50 to 60 in actual take home after SSI, federal, and state taxes.

A 50 to 60K take home income is a decent middle class salary.

quote:

Originally posted by RRR52:

quote:

Originally posted by DMarkUhler:

quote:

Originally posted by RRR52:
Grade is roughly but not perfectly correlated with pay, so it might be $70,000 when individual benefit value is calculated, as it should be to determine cost per employee. The $45,000 to $58,000 range might be placed at $53,000 (reasonably biased to the greater, since federal employees tend to remain in their jobs much longer than many in the private sector; those drawn to the federal payrolls are not, by nature, risk-seekers). If so, another $16,000 for employer-paid benefits, about 30% of the $53,000, does not seem out of line. The $70,000 may be correct; no solid evidence that it is not.

Well you would then concede the grade is incorrect?

GS-10 as average grade? I dunno. Could be right, could be something else; does not jump out as almost certainly wrong, at least not to my expectations. I wonder how SESs are factored into the calculation. Not a lot of them, but bigger salaries.

Get the Plum book and you will see how many of them there really are.

quote:

Originally posted by nspreitler:
That sounds about right, and $70,000 is not a huge salary. I make more than that as a 1LT.

A 70K salary equals somewhere from 50 to 60 in actual take home after SSI, federal, and state taxes.

A 50 to 60K take home income is a decent middle class salary.

You should move to SW VA NE TN then, you would be considered a rich man.

As for government state and local levels pay. MOST ARE OVERPAID! and not counting the bennies, purks and other sweet things. OVERPAID? YOU BET.

quote:

Originally posted by nspreitler:
That sounds about right, and $70,000 is not a huge salary. I make more than that as a 1LT.

A 70K salary equals somewhere from 50 to 60 in actual take home after SSI, federal, and state taxes.

A 50 to 60K take home income is a decent middle class salary.

Dang!! you make 70 grand as a Lt. are you adding your BAH, special duty pay, BAS, deployment bennies? Are you prior enlisted with like 15 years of service?

quote:

Originally posted by samh32:

quote:

Originally posted by nspreitler:
That sounds about right, and $70,000 is not a huge salary. I make more than that as a 1LT.

A 70K salary equals somewhere from 50 to 60 in actual take home after SSI, federal, and state taxes.

A 50 to 60K take home income is a decent middle class salary.

Dang!! you make 70 grand as a Lt. are you adding your BAH, special duty pay, BAS, deployment bennies? Are you prior enlisted with like 15 years of service?

1LTs do not make 70K and nor does the average federal worker.